Eddie Howe

[Kanj]

46 minutes ago, OverThere said:

The club hasn't been very good with putting its vision down on paper, even at a high level. I realize that you cant publicly say everything, but for instance, the timescale for the feasibility study has been very fluid. No one runs a project like that, so what is going on?

 

 

 

 

 

likely the study returned X results, and the club are going back & forth on questions, revisions etc. that's normal. 

[Kanj]

2 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

Are these not valid criticisms or something?

 

We’ve had 3 years of evidence - including 1 year shit hit the fan and we dealt with it the worst of the 6 clubs involved.  We’ve seen other clubs navigate PSR issues with more nous and creativity. That’s not speculation - that’s evidence. The people involved have been moved on and we unanimously agree we were mismanaged by them. 

 

Sacking Eddie and being ambitious doesn’t mean much.  Ambition without skill and nous isn’t that useful.   Unless they can give the next manager  structure that they can succeed in it’s almost worthless. Increasing revenue is way more important than changing the manager. Being smart in the transfer market is way more important than changing the manager. 
 

Sorry pal but I think your second paragraph is BS. Running football clubs is tremendously difficult x10 one in our position.  I don’t expect Owners to come in and be perfect from day one.  Both City and Villa owners had multiple years wasting money, bad decisions etc. Brentford and Brighton needed years for their transfer approach to pay off big.  Our Owners have made mistakes and I want them to improve and do better as other owners have over time.  You seem to have this attitude that any criticism means I want the owners to leave - that’s a very shallow thought process. 

 

People did the same thing with Howe last season.  I criticised Howe last season because he made mistakes.  People thought I wanted him out and that’s such basic thinking. It’s because if they criticise a manager - they want them out.  I don’t think like that.  
 

Im ok if they don’t ever show the nous and creativity I hope for. We’ll eventually get a new stadium and a great academy which will bring us closer to the top 6 in the long term.  In the mean time we’ll average 7th/8th with the opportunity to challenge for cups.  That’s better than what I’ve experienced for most of my life. But the rhetoric of challenging at the top will misalign expectations. 

 

There are a few things there I don't agree with (fundamentally) but on the main, very well drilled down and a lot of good, transparent, no sugar coating analysis there.  

 

I've said this before, having been on this ride with NUFC since 96, I've seen more bad than good, and prior to Eddie it was a complete dumpster fire. I am perfectly happy slowly building and competing for any of the European places and making great cup runs. I would like the club to start acting that way in terms of communication, etc. You can't put pressure on Eddie to make CL or Europa but not give him a single bit of cash to sign players or don't make the convincing case of moving others on. That's not fair to Eddie and the coaching team. 

[TRon]

10 minutes ago, Kanj said:

 

There are a few things there I don't agree with (fundamentally) but on the main, very well drilled down and a lot of good, transparent, no sugar coating analysis there.  

 

I've said this before, having been on this ride with NUFC since 96, I've seen more bad than good, and prior to Eddie it was a complete dumpster fire. I am perfectly happy slowly building and competing for any of the European places and making great cup runs. I would like the club to start acting that way in terms of communication, etc. You can't put pressure on Eddie to make CL or Europa but not give him a single bit of cash to sign players or don't make the convincing case of moving others on. That's not fair to Eddie and the coaching team. 

 

I think Europa is a target to aim for, it's not tied inherently to Howe's job. Eddie's been backed pretty extensively in the transfer market, the only reason he's not getting more is because the league rules won't allow it. This means if Eddie wants more players we'll have to sell in order to generate the funds. He's been reluctant to let players go previously but seems to be on board with it now. Unfortunately it seems the only players clubs want is the ones he wants to keep.

[The College Dropout]

1 hour ago, TRon said:

 

I'm just looking at a realistic way forward. I think what would be useful is an update from PIF as to what our current ambitions are. Fans might still be going off the Yasir quote about becoming No 1, but that's since been updated to getting into Europe in the short term at least. For that we aren't that much off course, it's quite conceivable that Howe could achieve that even with 8th place.

 

As for other clubs navigating PSR issues, I think all clubs have different headroom, and they probably come under less scrutiny as well. Just have to look at Man U with their Covid allowances to see that. We've hired top class people to oversee all this. What is it you are arguing then? They are bad hires and we should sack them and get others instead?

 

 

I’m not advocating sacking anyone lol.  
 

Leicester, Everton, Chelsea, Forest, Newcastle, Villa all had PSR issues to deal with.  All these clubs traded before the deadline.  We were one of the last to act and we got the worst deal of them all - sold a useful player for a useless player  and our most valuable prospect in a position we needed enforcements. That was dealt badly - Forest fleeced us.  They got Anderson for 15m which they can recoup if needed. We didn’t even get the best offer for Minteh. Anyway the ppl involved have gone. But that still happened under PIFs watch - that doesnt absolve them of blame. They are the major shareholders. 
 

I’ve no reason to think Yasir has changed  his end goal. So I will stick with his word until he says otherwise. I just don’t see how he plans for us to get there. 
 

Where we differ is I’m happy to speculate based on the last known facts. Will update my thinking as new facts become clear. 

[The College Dropout]

2 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

I think Europa is a target to aim for, it's not tied inherently to Howe's job. Eddie's been backed pretty extensively in the transfer market, the only reason he's not getting more is because the league rules won't allow it. This means if Eddie wants more players we'll have to sell in order to generate the funds. He's been reluctant to let players go previously but seems to be on board with it now. Unfortunately it seems the only players clubs want is the ones he wants to keep.

7th biggest squad cost. 
8th biggest wage. 
Target = 6th

 

Doesnt make sense to me. 
 

Eddie should never have been responsible for who we buy sell or give contracts too.  Won’t hold that against him. If he doesn’t like it he should leave.  

[TRon]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

I’m not advocating sacking anyone lol.  
 

Leicester, Everton, Chelsea, Forest, Newcastle, Villa all had PSR issues to deal with.  All these clubs traded before the deadline.  We were one of the last to act and we got the worst deal of them all - sold a useful player for a useless player  and our most valuable prospect in a position we needed enforcements. That was dealt badly - Forest fleeced us.  They got Anderson for 15m which they can recoup if needed. We didn’t even get the best offer for Minteh. Anyway the ppl involved have gone. But that still happened under PIFs watch - that doesnt absolve them of blame. They are the major shareholders. 
 

I’ve no reason to think Yasir has changed  his end goal. So I will stick with his word until he says otherwise. I just don’t see how he plans for us to get there. 
 

Where we differ is I’m happy to speculate based on the last known facts. Will update my thinking as new facts become clear. 

 

 

Didn't Leicester, Everton and Forest end up in a shitload of trouble for trying to bend the rules? The staff responsible for trading badly prior to this summer have gone as you acknowledge. Even the Yasir No 1 ambition has been downgraded. I'm not really sure what you are arguing at this point. Seems to be breaking rules and then risking a points hit if I'm reading that last post correctly.

[TRon]

2 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

7th biggest squad cost. 
8th biggest wage. 
Target = 6th

 

Doesnt make sense to me. 
 

Eddie should never have been responsible for who we buy sell or give contracts too.  Won’t hold that against him. If he doesn’t like it he should leave.  

 

 

Did anyone at the club actually specify the target = 6th?

 

From what I understand the target is Europe and that can be achieved even with an 8th place finish if things go our way.

[The College Dropout]

Just now, TRon said:

 

 

Didn't Leicester, Everton and Forest end up in a shitload of trouble for trying to bend the rules? The staff responsible for trading badly prior to this summer have gone as you acknowledge. Even the Yasir No 1 ambition has been downgraded. I'm not really sure what you are arguing at this point. Seems to be breaking rules and then risking a points hit if I'm reading that last post correctly.

The season before. Hence the points deductions. For Leicester it was the season before that.  
 

We didn’t learn from their issues. As we agree - that was a failure and a like has been drawn. 
 

When did Yasir downgrade being number 1? The short term goal is Europe. The long term goal is #1 is he doubled down in the summer I believe.  
 

Im going to bow out here.  This discussion isn’t genuine.  Me expecting the leaders to manage our PSR position better = take a points hit to you. Ok man.  I’m out. 

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, TRon said:

 

 

Did anyone at the club actually specify the target = 6th?

 

From what I understand the target is Europe and that can be achieved even with an 8th place finish if things go our way.

To guarantee Europa league you must finish 5th or win FA Cup.  It’s likely 6th will do it. Anything less is unlikely which doesn’t make it a viable target imo. 

[The College Dropout]

I think 7th and 8th is a good target. But those spots don’t guarantee European football. Again maybe I’m being too black and white. But to me you target 7th or 8th and hope it brings European football and take what you get.  Or European football is the genuine target which requires top 6 or a cup to guarantee as a target.  

[TRon]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

The season before. Hence the points deductions. For Leicester it was the season before that.  
 

We didn’t learn from their issues. As we agree - that was a failure and a like has been drawn. 
 

When did Yasir downgrade being number 1? The short term goal is Europe. The long term goal is #1 is he doubled down in the summer I believe.  
 

Im going to bow out here.  This discussion isn’t genuine.  Me expecting the leaders to manage our PSR position better = take a points hit to you. Ok man.  I’m out. 

 

I'm sure Yasir would love to be No 1, and if we were allowed to spend our way there, we would do it. But we aren't because since the takeover the rules have been specifically amended to stop us spending on the squad. So our current target for this season is Europe, which isn't out of the question and is not as I understand it a firing offence if we don't achieve it. This is just speculation.

 

Your suggested solutions seem to be break the rules and take the punishment, points docked or whatever. I just don't think that's a sensible way forward. By all means criticise the ownership but you need to come up with something more realistic and concrete that we could seriously ask ourselves: why haven't they done that?

[Roids]

Iraola please 

[Jagten]

2 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

7th biggest squad cost. 
8th biggest wage. 
Target = 6th

 

Doesnt make sense to me. 
 

Eddie should never have been responsible for who we buy sell or give contracts too.  Won’t hold that against him. If he doesn’t like it he should leave.  

A 7-8th result is then average, given the investment, so the value add is probably nil. I think it's a lower bound for not considering us to have made bad decisions somewhere. 

[Jackie Broon]

2 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

7th biggest squad cost. 
8th biggest wage. 
Target = 6th

 

Doesnt make sense to me. 
 

Eddie should never have been responsible for who we buy sell or give contracts too.  Won’t hold that against him. If he doesn’t like it he should leave.  

 

I don't think it's as straightforward as 7th in squad cost should expect to finish 7th. There's always going to be one or two of the 6 that underperform and we have the advantage of not being in Europe.

 

Whilst our squad cost may be 7th, there is a big gap to 8th, we're not far off Liverpool and Spurs and there are currently 6 teams all with squad costs of at least £145m less than us above us in the table.

 

Also, unless our form really turns around, we're not finishing 7th this season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10 by Jackie Broon

[Dr Jinx]

Fair to say more of ye have come around to my way of thinking.

 

I think we'll pick up another win, all forgiven and then it'll go like the last few games has and the same debate will just keep recycling.

 

That's what it is now - i think another coach could get more from the squad available, some of you don't.

 

We cannot count on having a good window for player recruitment, so it falls back on the current squad.

[Abacus]

First we're complaining about getting points we shouldn't have. Now we're complaining about not getting points we should have.

 

Come on NO, make your minds up.

[Collage]

23 minutes ago, Abacus said:

First we're complaining about getting points we shouldn't have. Now we're complaining about not getting points we should have.

 

Come on NO, make your minds up.

NO is many people

[Abacus]

30 minutes ago, Collage said:

NO is many people

 

My silly comment just made me laugh when I posted it. I'm very sorry for my childish behaviour.

[The College Dropout]

2 hours ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

I don't think it's as straightforward as 7th in squad cost should expect to finish 7th. There's always going to be one or two of the 6 that underperform and we have the advantage of not being in Europe.

 

Whilst our squad cost may be 7th, there is a big gap to 8th, we're not far off Liverpool and Spurs and there are currently 6 teams all with squad costs of at least £145m less than us above us in the table.

 

Also, unless our form really turns around, we're not finishing 7th this season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is that simple mind. Most teams finish within 3 places of the squad cost on average.  
 

You’re absolutely wrong about squad cost and wages. From the last known account we are 7th and 8th in squad cost and wages swapping with Villa. Wages 8th closer to Everton, Villa and Leeds than the 6th place club Arsenal. The squad cost was 7th - 100m short of Spurs in 6th (who have spent 500m since these accounts iirc). Again closer in wages squad cost to Leeds, West Ham & Everton.  
 

The bottom line is the squad is far closer in value and wages to Wst Ham and Everton than Arsenal or Spurs. 
 

Im not arguing the point that we should be happy with 11th. If Howe finishes 11th he will fairly sacked. But some of you expect him to overachieve as par.  Not The atmosphere at the club, squad or recent transfer windows make finishing higher than our budget and cost an unreasonable expectation.  Howe benefitted from atmospheere for a long time - now it’s against him (although partial self created).  
 

 

Some of the clubs that will finish above us will do so not because they have better managers. But because the clubs are better run. Smarter transfers, better atmospheres.  For a club to over achieve the transfers, squad building and atmosphere needs to be good. Ours is not.  

[OverThere]

6 hours ago, TRon said:

 

 

Did anyone at the club actually specify the target = 6th?

 

From what I understand the target is Europe and that can be achieved even with an 8th place finish if things go our way.

Very unlikely 8th would do it, more likely 6th.

[Matt1892]

I think they said at the time that the last time a club finished 7th and didn’t qualify for European football was when Wigan and Swansea won the cup competitions a decade ago.

 

If Howe can’t achieve European football this season then he will be gone, if he lasts that long.

[Monters]

Purely personal opinion but I'm not convinced UEFA Conference League is worth it... If the club is not fully behind the manager then that comp should not save him nor sacrifice if they do think he is the man to take us forward! If you a setting a target then it has to be CL or EL and then give the tools to make it a realistic aim... TCD has explained the perceived squad costs etc and reasonable targets so I won't rehash   

 

 

Edited December 11 by Monters
typo

[PauloGeordio]

[J7]

Finishing behind these Spurs and Man Utd teams would be a failure, regardless of squad costs.

[wormy]

5 hours ago, PauloGeordio said:

 

Well that settles it. Howe Out. This man defended Bruce ffs.