Eddie Howe

[Antipode23]

For what it's worth, as a reluctant but committed Howe-outer, I don't have a major issue with people who are unsure of how much to blame Eddie. It's not an entirely black and white issue, there are a number of factors at play, and Eddie's done a lot of good for NUFC. As with anything, we should think things through before coming to conclusions.

 

In the same breath, most people of the view Eddie should go don't ONLY blame him for this mess. But there's good evidence he's responsible for a chunk of it, and there's no getting away from that.

 

The thing with the owners is, yes they're ponderously slow and generally seem fairly non committed, but there's too much (not everything mind) about our dire on-field performances that you can't really blame them for. The manager has far more responsibility for that.

[ffs]

this whole thread has been amazingly civil given how numbingly bad the football has been (so we all feel ugh) and how emotive the subject is. i don't even feel like people are that far apart. everyone's concerned about current performances - how could you not be? and at the same time everyone recognises that Eddie has done some truly great things with us. whether you end up at 60:40 or 40:60 from that is almost random, and wherever you end up, at this point you can see the other side's pov.

 that second half in barcelona seems to have done a lot of damage to the players' mentality. which i think the rat stuff had already had an effect on. all the players can see that "the project" has been psr-ed out of viability. we just can't pay high enuf wages for the top top players - by design. and now any existing or prospective player can see that. our existing players see top top players turning us down, just as much as we do. and yet perhaps they were still thinking hey we're in the champs' league round of 16, maybe we actually *can* be, are on the way to being, a real elite club. and then just a total humiliating abject surrender against a truly elite club - and suddenly nobody can sustain the illusion anymore.

 i don't even know what i think about Eddie. as many have said it's the nature of the performances, and his sometimes Amorimesque same shit different day inflexibility, that give as much concern as the results. and many many managers would have done well for us given the money spent.

 that said, he is the world's most decent bloke (nobody in here has said otherwise), did a truly incredible job in those first two seasons, *won us a cup*, and had us playing some joyous football at points.

 but Eddie or no Eddie we are all, players included, awake to the new reality now, i think. we are being deliberately prevented from paying top top players the wages they command, and until that changes we *cannot* join the real elite, whatever david hopkinson says. how could we? 

 our reality seems more likely to be a sort of cuck club on steroids. a brighton or brentford with deeper pockets but worse analytics (no disrespect to the new fella). i feel like we have overachieved in getting champs' league twice - some of which was Eddie, but also some of which was being in a period of time when incoming players could credibly be sold "the project" of being the next man city or whatever - and now they can't. 

 Eddie seems exhausted and the team looks at a real low. maybe he should go, maybe he shouldn't. but if he does then whoever comes in is going to be in the exact same bind. we aren't allowed to pay top wages, and every agent and player in the world knows it. we could literally get pep, but he wouldn't be allowed to *be* pep.

 and i truly hate that this is our reality - it's like we got out of actual ashley and the cartel imposed a systematic ashley on us. 

[Antipode23]

4 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

It’s that thing off Batman isn’t it - you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. 
 

He doesn’t deserve to be ever seen as a villain but I’m telling you now if we serve up another shitty performance against Brighton (you can forget arsenal next week. Basically a bye week for them) and lose yet again, it’ll turn nasty in there. Been bubbling for a while now, certainly around me in the upper Gallowgate. 

 

What are the main things fans are saying out of curiosity? Are they just effing and blinding out of pure emotion, or sharing some of the sentiments in here?

[Coffee_Johnny]

5 minutes ago, Antipode23 said:

 

a) there is division in the fanbase, I haven't created it

 

b) division isn't always completely bad, contrary to modern belief

 

c) in this case, if people want to absolve Howe of almost all blame, I'm very happy being 'divided' from them. It's just not a reasonable position and I won't pretend otherwise

A) there are differing views along a continuum of has to stay, has to go. Nobody ‘knows’ what is best for NUFC; but we all want the best. 
B) divisiveness, externalising and blaming which goes with it is responsible for the worst decisions, atrocities, and every ‘ism’ you can think of in the history of mankind. 
C) your own Worzel Gummidge is getting bigger. 

[500bhp]

1 hour ago, Elma said:

 

I think the majority of the players are still behind him. I don't think there's any way those players that he took to fifth and a League Cup win aren't playing for him. I think Thiaw is behind him.

 

The ones who "might" not be bothered whether he moves on or not are the newer signings who can't get into the team and other fringe players who haven't had a run under him. That's human nature.

 

The team still outran Bournemouth yesterday by a couple of km, and you can see the effort is there. The problem is confidence is really at rock bottom.

 

For me, the annoying thing is that for a coach who prides himself on learning and developing, he can't see that his poor and reactive in game management is costing us points, and it looks like he's doing nothing to fix it.

 

I'd be stunned if we don't go three at the back next week now, and maybe that might get us out of this slump. I'd absolutely take a hard fought draw at this point. 

 

Please don't take this the wrong way and I'm not trying to be a smart arse but were you at the match yesterday? Unusually for me I had no alcohol pre game for the first time in years, so I used the opportunity to look closely and soberly at the players instead of just following the action and the ball. Most of those players were half arsed, didn't track back and seem to have given up. Trippier second half being a noticeable exception. 

 

Its just a small thing but when the players ran out to start the second half both sets has small cones to run around to warm up with a coach there from each team. Bournemouth players did it properly listening to the coach, making eye contact and acknowledged him. Ours couldn't be give a shit and virtually all ignored the coach and run over the cones. I know that sounds trivial but it sums up the current mood in the camp. 

[r0cafella]

2 minutes ago, 500bhp said:

 

Please don't take this the wrong way and I'm not trying to be a smart arse but were you at the match yesterday? Unusually for me I had no alcohol pre game for the first time in years, so I used the opportunity to look closely and soberly at the players instead of just following the action and the ball. Most of those players were half arsed, didn't track back and seem to have given up. Trippier second half being a noticeable exception. 

 

Its just a small thing but when the players ran out to start the second half both sets has small cones to run around to warm up with a coach there from each team. Bournemouth players did it properly listening to the coach, making eye contact and acknowledged him. Ours couldn't be give a shit and virtually all ignored the coach and run over the cones. I know that sounds trivial but it sums up the current mood in the camp. 

I've mentioned before but without knowing I do feel we have a bit of a player power issue like. 

[Antipode23]

5 minutes ago, ffs said:

this whole thread has been amazingly civil given how numbingly bad the football has been (so we all feel ugh) and how emotive the subject is. i don't even feel like people are that far apart. everyone's concerned about current performances - how could you not be? and at the same time everyone recognises that Eddie has done some truly great things with us. whether you end up at 60:40 or 40:60 from that is almost random, and wherever you end up, at this point you can see the other side's pov.

 that second half in barcelona seems to have done a lot of damage to the players' mentality. which i think the rat stuff had already had an effect on. all the players can see that "the project" has been psr-ed out of viability. we just can't pay high enuf wages for the top top players - by design. and now any existing or prospective player can see that. our existing players see top top players turning us down, just as much as we do. and yet perhaps they were still thinking hey we're in the champs' league round of 16, maybe we actually *can* be, are on the way to being, a real elite club. and then just a total humiliating abject surrender against a truly elite club - and suddenly nobody can sustain the illusion anymore.

 i don't even know what i think about Eddie. as many have said it's the nature of the performances, and his sometimes Amorimesque same shit different day inflexibility, that give as much concern as the results. and many many managers would have done well for us given the money spent.

 that said, he is the world's most decent bloke (nobody in here has said otherwise), did a truly incredible job in those first two seasons, *won us a cup*, and had us playing some joyous football at points.

 but Eddie or no Eddie we are all, players included, awake to the new reality now, i think. we are being deliberately prevented from paying top top players the wages they command, and until that changes we *cannot* join the real elite, whatever david hopkinson says. how could we? 

 our reality seems more likely to be a sort of cuck club on steroids. a brighton or brentford with deeper pockets but worse analytics (no disrespect to the new fella). i feel like we have overachieved in getting champs' league twice - some of which was Eddie, but also some of which was being in a period of time when incoming players could credibly be sold "the project" of being the next man city or whatever - and now they can't. 

 Eddie seems exhausted and the team looks at a real low. maybe he should go, maybe he shouldn't. but if he does then whoever comes in is going to be in the exact same bind. we aren't allowed to pay top wages, and every agent and player in the world knows it. we could literally get pep, but he wouldn't be allowed to *be* pep.

 and i truly hate that this is our reality - it's like we got out of actual ashley and the cartel imposed a systematic ashley on us. 

 

Cheers for the reasoned thoughts.

 

I agree that PSR goes a long way to screwing us, but I'm still to hear anyone explain why, under similar PSR constraints, Villa are not suffering like we are. If PSR was a death sentence then Villa would be in a battle for 15th in the league like us.

 

TLDR I think there's a danger we overblame PSR and don't call out other factors enough.

[Chicken Dancer]

13 minutes ago, Antipode23 said:

 

What are the main things fans are saying out of curiosity? Are they just effing and blinding out of pure emotion, or sharing some of the sentiments in here?

It’s not necessarily what they’re saying but you can just feel it’s bubbling and has been since the Brentford game. 
 

There was a point in the first half yesterday not long after they’d scored when they had a ball fizzed across the goal at the Gallowgate end and you could really feel it in that moment.

 

End of the day we’re losing home games on a pretty consistent basis whilst also

playing like shit. It was always bound to happen. 

[Hanshithispantz]

11 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Maybe, maybe not but you've watched us this season right?  

I think we've been shit I agree.

 

I just think it's been the same for most of the league as the physicality has been hard to deal with. I trust Howe to come up with a proper plan given a non-turbulent pre-season, but even this year could have been entirely different if we'd gotten the rub of the green in a couple more games.

 

I completely understand why some people think we need a change, but I think the idea Howe cannot turn this around is emotional given the last few defeats and the pattern of throwing games away.

[ffs]

2 minutes ago, Antipode23 said:

 

Cheers for the reasoned thoughts.

 

I agree that PSR goes a long way to screwing us, but I'm still to hear anyone explain why, under similar PSR constraints, Villa are not suffering like we are. If PSR was a death sentence then Villa would be in a battle for 15th in the league like us.

 

TLDR I think there's a danger we overblame PSR and don't call out other factors enough.

 i like that you included a TLDR after a short para and i didn't after a way overlong barely punctuated scrawl 🙂

 

  i think the big difference betw villa and us was the starting point in terms of player quality and value. it made psr a bit less horrific for them - but it will still constrain them as intended

 

 it may also be that emery is a better manager than Eddie in some important respects. just like those managers who are end of season avoid-relegation specialists (until they aren't), maybe Eddie is a master of outperforming being underestimated. but when other teams stop underestimating us, he doesn't have the same ability to outperform. 

 

  for me, though, i'm not even sure it's possible to overblame psr. it doesn't mean that Eddie/the team/we shouldn't have done better this season - we 100% definitely should. but psr is the underlying factor behind our inability to kick on, take the next step, become truly elite. and i guess my point is that whoever we bring in (if we bring anyone in) - mourinho, mancini, simeone, some clever up and comer - they will all be swimming in pyjamas carrying that same rubber brick.

[Newcastle Fan]

He had everything he wanted this year, control of transfers and a mostly injury free squad, there is no excuses for the fact that we massively went downhill this season, even less excuse to lose twice to your rivals who have been in the lower leagues for years,  it just seems he is not the sort of manager who can handle coaching a team with champions league football and back to back game and the data backs it up, he might do a great job for England with all the time between games to plan but for us i'd much rather see someone capable of managing at the level we aspire to be at.

 

If the new CEO is any good he should already have started the process of who is the best fit to replace him.

[duo]

 

If ever there was a graphic to sum up why it's time for Eddie to go

[Antipode23]

4 minutes ago, Newcastle Fan said:

He had everything he wanted this year, control of transfers and a mostly injury free squad, there is no excuses for the fact that we massively went downhill this season, even less excuse to lose twice to your rivals who have been in the lower leagues for years,  it just seems he is not the sort of manager who can handle coaching a team with champions league football and back to back game and the data backs it up, he might do a great job for England with all the time between games to plan but for us i'd much rather see someone capable of managing at the level we aspire to be at.

 

If the new CEO is any good he should already have started the process of who is the best fit to replace him.

 

[astraguy]

5 minutes ago, Newcastle Fan said:

He had everything he wanted this year, control of transfers and a mostly injury free squad, there is no excuses for the fact that we massively went downhill this season, even less excuse to lose twice to your rivals who have been in the lower leagues for years,  it just seems he is not the sort of manager who can handle coaching a team with champions league football and back to back game and the data backs it up, he might do a great job for England with all the time between games to plan but for us i'd much rather see someone capable of managing at the level we aspire to be at.

 

If the new CEO is any good he should already have started the process of who is the best fit to replace him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c70l9y3p893o

 

[MagMal]

The key point in all this for me is how does Eddie feel about the whole thing, his body language says to me he is tired and needs to step away from football for a year, the poor bloke has run himself into the ground for this club, done a fantastic job but I think it will be down to him at the end of the season and I think he will step away himself.

[Antipode23]

9 minutes ago, ffs said:

 i like that you included a TLDR after a short para and i didn't after a way overlong barely punctuated scrawl 🙂

 

  i think the big difference betw villa and us was the starting point in terms of player quality and value. it made psr a bit less horrific for them - but it will still constrain them as intended

 

 it may also be that emery is a better manager than Eddie in some important respects. just like those managers who are end of season avoid-relegation specialists (until they aren't), maybe Eddie is a master of outperforming being underestimated. but when other teams stop underestimating us, he doesn't have the same ability to outperform. 

 

  for me, though, i'm not even sure it's possible to overblame psr. it doesn't mean that Eddie/the team/we shouldn't have done better this season - we 100% definitely should. but psr is the underlying factor behind our inability to kick on, take the next step, become truly elite. and i guess my point is that whoever we bring in (if we bring anyone in) - mourinho, mancini, simeone, some clever up and comer - they will all be swimming in pyjamas carrying that same rubber brick.

 

Yeah - hard to argue with that.

 

I guess I just feel like the takeover bounce still has some life in it, even if PSR ultimately strangles us, and that Eddie may now be standing in the way of progress somewhat.

[duo]

PSR doesn't stop us playing well

[Toon No9]

3 minutes ago, duo said:

 

If ever there was a graphic to sum up why it's time for Eddie to go

So we should sack our manager every time we have 10 poor matches? Then we will become another Spurs imo.

 

What about all the other matches Howe's been in charge of? He dosent become a bad manager over a night. He's still a good manager.

 

I think if we give him a couple of weeks off in the summer and a full backing, he will turn everything around next season and everybody will say he's great again.

[Holloway]

42 minutes ago, 500bhp said:

 

Please don't take this the wrong way and I'm not trying to be a smart arse but were you at the match yesterday? Unusually for me I had no alcohol pre game for the first time in years, so I used the opportunity to look closely and soberly at the players instead of just following the action and the ball. Most of those players were half arsed, didn't track back and seem to have given up. Trippier second half being a noticeable exception. 

 

Its just a small thing but when the players ran out to start the second half both sets has small cones to run around to warm up with a coach there from each team. Bournemouth players did it properly listening to the coach, making eye contact and acknowledged him. Ours couldn't be give a shit and virtually all ignored the coach and run over the cones. I know that sounds trivial but it sums up the current mood in the camp. 

This is quite telling, you don't pick this stuff up on tv. Listen to the match goers (not the half spannered ones)

[OverThere]

6 minutes ago, Toon No9 said:

So we should sack our manager every time we have 10 poor matches? Then we will become another Spurs imo.

 

What about all the other matches Howe's been in charge of? He dosent become a bad manager over a night. He's still a good manager.

 

I think if we give him a couple of weeks off in the summer and a full backing, he will turn everything around next season and everybody will say he's great again.

Hmm. He will? He spent a boat load on shite last summer so the jury is out on that one 

[Antipode23]

2 minutes ago, Toon No9 said:

So we should sack our manager every time we have 10 poor matches? Then we will become another Spurs imo.

 

What about all the other matches Howe's been in charge of? He dosent become a bad manager over a night. He's still a good manager.

 

I think if we give him a couple of weeks off in the summer and a full backing, he will turn everything around next season and everybody will say he's great again.

 

With respect man, that's an overly simplistic and unfair representation of the Howe out argument.

 

For a more complete picture, off the top of my head, it's worth considering:

 

- we've been bad for way more than 10 games

- just HOW bad we've been. It's almost embarrassing at this point

- the exact ways in which we've been bad. Many of which fall on the manager

 

When you flesh out even those three points, you discover an argument much more robust than just "we've had x number of bad games, sack him!".

 

[The College Dropout]

I’ve given Eddie a pass for the summer because no manager should have to do what he did at this level. 
But it does speak a lot to how he sees the game. 
 

I felt we were desperate for 2 technicians. We were over reliant on Bruno’s ability on the ball. tactically, coaching and with transfers he’s made zero progress on this.  He doesn’t prioritise it at all.  It’s turgid. 
 

 

The team has now stopped running for him. There’s nothing else to his tactical management.  

[Holmesy]

6 minutes ago, Toon No9 said:

So we should sack our manager every time we have 10 poor matches? Then we will become another Spurs imo.

 

What about all the other matches Howe's been in charge of? He dosent become a bad manager over a night. He's still a good manager.

 

I think if we give him a couple of weeks off in the summer and a full backing, he will turn everything around next season and everybody will say he's great again.

No, you don't become a bad manager overnight but you can become a stale one over the course of a few years, and that's the point at which you change things (as Fergie did, as Pep does etc.). When you see the players are no longer responding to your coaching and ideas, and your gameplan is no longer working, you do something different to re-engage them and reverse the slide. But that's evidently not Eddie's way.
If he goes away, has another sabatical and works on a new playbook, i've no doubt he would come back and do wonders again somewhere else. But while he is here, we will play the playbook he developed over 4.5 years ago, with minor tweaks, and that's your lot.
 

[Rich]

It’s his words and his actions that are giving me pause, now, unfortunately, when I’ve never really had any issue with anything he’s ever said before.
 

Couldn’t have any more respect for him for what he’s achieved here and how he’s represented the club, but if he’s not willing to refresh his approach, which he doesn’t seem to be based on his recent comments, tactics, and team selections, he shouldn’t be in charge beyond this season.

 

I don’t recall a time in my life where one of our managers has been able to turn it around when it gets to this sort of stage with a significant section of the supporters, but based on history if anyone can, then it’s Howe.

 

I was pleasantly surprised by how much support there was for him in the Gallowgate yesterday, but it feels on a knife edge for many of those joining in with his chant based on how quickly they stopped second half when things were looking bleak.

[The College Dropout]

55 minutes ago, 500bhp said:

 

Please don't take this the wrong way and I'm not trying to be a smart arse but were you at the match yesterday? Unusually for me I had no alcohol pre game for the first time in years, so I used the opportunity to look closely and soberly at the players instead of just following the action and the ball. Most of those players were half arsed, didn't track back and seem to have given up. Trippier second half being a noticeable exception. 

 

Its just a small thing but when the players ran out to start the second half both sets has small cones to run around to warm up with a coach there from each team. Bournemouth players did it properly listening to the coach, making eye contact and acknowledged him. Ours couldn't be give a shit and virtually all ignored the coach and run over the cones. I know that sounds trivial but it sums up the current mood in the camp. 

This is insightful thanks for sharing.  
 

A lot of the goals we are conceding are just down to not tracking runners, seemingly low effort from the team.   Thats low confidence aye maybe tiredness but certainly a team that lacks motivation.  Is it the same ideas and voice no longer working.