Sven Botman: targeting January return (Howe)

[Chris_R]

54 minutes ago, Kasper said:

 

Yes, I do. Marketing themselves as a good country to invest money in by owning a football club is exactly what sportwashing is.

 

This.

 

If there's some greater good to come from their ownership of us, maybe them being involved in elite sport at the highest level (Ha, maybe eventually!) will help them modernise and westernise at a faster pace. Treating countries like pariahs rarely helps them integrate.

 

That's certainly my hope.

[Sean]

Been away on holiday for 2 weeks, come back, read a couple of HTT11 posts, might go away for another couple of weeks 

[Guest HTT II]

6 minutes ago, Sean said:

Been away on holiday for 2 weeks, come back, read a couple of HTT11 posts, might go away for another couple of weeks 

Good, you won’t be missed! Hope you had a nice holiday mind!

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by HTT II

[Rich]

Would love some Svenwashing today.

[Shak]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

 

What do you think sportwashing means?

 

 

Graeme McDowell would have been proud.

 

 

 

 

[Gallowgate Toon]

We are going to be cog in a fairly massive wheel for KSA. Read their Vision 2030 site and you can see where sport fits into that approach. What matters is if they're doing this to genuinely improve as a country (even if it's primarily driven by economical factors) or if it's all for show. It could be both, of course. 

[Happinesstan]

11 minutes ago, Shak said:

 

 

Graeme McDowell would have been proud.

 

 

 

 

Nobody does "reprehensible" like Bill Burr.

 

 

[Guest HTT II]

3 minutes ago, Gallowgate Toon said:

We are going to be cog in a fairly massive wheel for KSA. Read their Vision 2030 site and you can see where sport fits into that approach. What matters is if they're doing this to genuinely improve as a country (even if it's primarily driven by economical factors) or if it's all for show. It could be both, of course. 

It’s purely for financial reasons. Again if they were all about improving their human rights image, buying a football club won’t achieve that! 

[Guest HTT II]

45 minutes ago, LFEE said:

Does anyone wonder how sports journalism works? Like turning up for the job on your first day ?How would you gather reliable transfer info if not from the clubs? So many agents in the game now etc. The fact we found it hard to get Ekitike the first time round as we didn’t know who his real representative shows how tricky it must be these days.

They fire up Tw@tter and go to work?

[Kid Icarus]

You have nothing to back up what you're saying aside from your own gut feeling on it. Meanwhile sportswashing has been going on and explicitly admitted to by the people doing it for years.

 

Its effectiveness and whether it actually has a Streisand effect is another matter, but saying sportswashing doesn't exist or that the Saudis aren't attempting it is just blind.

[Guest HTT II]

1 minute ago, Kid Icarus said:

You have nothing to back up what you're saying aside from your own gut feeling on it. Meanwhile sportswashing has been going on and explicitly admitted to by the people doing it for years.

 

Its effectiveness and whether it actually has a Streisand effect is another matter, but saying sportswashing doesn't exist or that the Saudis aren't attempting it is just blind.

Neither do you, other than your own pre conceived ideas of sportswashing. That’s not their intention, it’s like saying the USA going into Iraq their intention is to free that country. It will undoubtedly occur, and sadly many a Toon fan on social media are defending SA or at least deflecting, but the impact they make is pretty much zero on any impact positive or negative towards SA. This is 100% an investment choice, not to make the West think they aren’t that bad… if you believe that you’re as deluded as the notion that NUFC winning a game or two makes SA’s atrocities somewhat less bad! Now that’s sportswashing and it’s on THOSE that do so not SA or even NUFC’s success or otherwise! 

[Chris_R]

We're absolutely being used for sportswashing, I think it's crazy to suggest otherwise.

 

Like this LIV golf.... Are you saying that's not sportswashing, that it's also to make money? Because they'll make nothing off the hundreds of millions they're throwing into that.

 

They're trying to rehabilitate their world image via sports.

 

 

[LV]

I suppose it’s better than them not trying to rehabilitate their world image 

[NUFC_Chris]

Clearly nowt happening in here then.

[Kid Icarus]

Just now, HTT II said:

Neither do you, other than your own pre conceived ideas of sportswashing. That’s not their intention, it’s like saying the USA going into Iraq their intention is to free that country. It will undoubtedly occur, and sadly many a Toon fan on social media are defending SA or at least deflecting, but the impact they make is pretty much zero on any impact positive or negative towards SA. This is 100% an investment choice, not to make the West think they aren’t that bad… if you believe that you’re as deluded as the notion that NUFC winning a game or two makes SA’s atrocities somewhat less bad! Now that’s sportswashing and it’s on THOSE that do so not SA or even NUFC’s success or otherwise! 

 

I do a bit though,  When it was first mentioned back in 2020 I went away and tried to learn about it. That freakonomics episode I posted yesterday covers pretty much everything if you're interested.

 

Like I say, nothing wrong with questioning whether it works or not, but it undoubtedly does exist and is attempted. 

[TheBrownBottle]

Anyone who thinks that KSA is buying sports clubs because it makes economic sense would do well to look at the profit margins of top football clubs, and then compare it with other businesses in PIF’s portfolio.

 

Even if NUFC became the world’s richest and most successful club it would represent the tiniest slither of money going back to the investors.  It is all about perception - sportswashing isn’t about making people forget about human rights abuses, it is about that noise being drowned out.

 

And no-one should kid themselves that owning an English football club is going to suddenly make one of the most vicious regimes on Earth suddenly start treating women or LGBTQI people better.

 

It is still ‘our’ club and our city’s name on that badge, and we have no say in a billionaire selling to an effective trillionaire.  But we don’t need to pretend it is anything other than what it is.  Life is too short to give up one of its pleasures lightly - watching your football team of a weekend. 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by TheBrownBottle

[Guest HTT II]

5 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

I do a bit though,  When it was first mentioned back in 2020 I went away and tried to learn about it. That freakonomics episode I posted yesterday covers pretty much everything if you're interested.

 

Like I say, nothing wrong with questioning whether it works or not, but it undoubtedly does exist and is attempted. 

I agree it exists, but I’m of the opinion it’s not some elaborate conspiracy by say SA or Man City’s owners to sportswash the world and it’s mostly down to others. My good friend is from SA and he’s adamant if they wanted to sportswash they could have just bought Man Utd for example and gained an army of millions of followers. This is an investment and part of their sporting project and their 20-30 thing. He also reckons their ruler whose name escapes me probably doesn’t even know any NUFC player’s’ names and probably likely doesn’t give a shit other than if we do buy a football club make it the best and biggest and most successful. And share that link please, I’m all for educating myself.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by HTT II

[Jackie Broon]

4 minutes ago, HTT II said:

It’s purely for financial reasons. Again if they were all about improving their human rights image, buying a football club won’t achieve that! 

 

They're very unlikely to be buying a football club, or starting a golf tournament paying hundreds of millions out, for solely financial reasons, there are much better ways to invest their money than that.

 

There might be an elements of MBS and/or Al-Rumayyan being big sports fans and friendly or not so friendly competition with other Arab states, but image is likely to be a big part of it.

 

Saudi Arabia can't just stop being and oppressive regime, they're in an incredibly unstable region, look at what has happened in other middle eastern countries that have risen up against oppressive regimes or where there has been an attempt at introducing western democracy... The Arab Spring and resulting conflict and instability in previously relatively stable and prosperous nations, the removal of Saddam Hussein's oppressive but stabilising regime in Iraq. The Saudi leadership will see their actions as completely necessary to maintain control and stability in their country, and they probably are, but they will also want to present a different image to the rest of the world and that almost certainty is at least an element of their reason for investment in sport.

 

 

 

 

[r0cafella]

Guys, we literally have a thread for sports washing can we keep this one on topic and move this talk to the relevant thread?

[Guest HTT II]

17 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Anyone who thinks that KSA is buying sports clubs because it makes economic sense would do well to look at the profit margins of top football clubs, and then compare it with other businesses in PIF’s portfolio.

 

Even if NUFC became the world’s richest and most successful club it would represent the tiniest slither of money going back to the investors.  It is all about perception - sportswashing isn’t about making people forget about human rights abuses, it is about that noise being drowned out.

 

And no-one should kid themselves that owning an English football club is going to suddenly make one of the most vicious regimes on Earth suddenly start treating women or LGBTQI people better.

 

It is still ‘our’ club and our city’s name on that badge, and we have no say in a billionaire selling to an effective trillionaire.  But we don’t need to pretend it is anything other than what it is.  Life is too short to give up one of its pleasures lightly - watching your football team of a weekend. 

 

 

 

It’s not about turning a profit, it’s about the brand and having an asset that can be shown as them being a success and the grandeur that follows, the last thing on their minds is: NUFC won today, that will shut people complaining about gay rights up for a week. It’s purely business. Any sportswashing that does follow is a by product and from many people that have no association with SA or even NUFC. My point is SA or PIF did not buy NUFC as a sportswashing exercise and anyone who believes they did is deluded. 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

3 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

They're very unlikely to be buying a football club, or starting a golf tournament paying hundreds of millions out, for solely financial reasons, there are much better ways to invest their money than that.

 

There might be an elements of MBS and/or Al-Rumayyan being big sports fans and friendly or not so friendly competition with other Arab states, but image is likely to be a big part of it.

 

Saudi Arabia can't just stop being and oppressive regime, they're in an incredibly unstable region, look at what has happened in other middle eastern countries that have risen up against oppressive regimes or where there has been an attempt at introducing western democracy... The Arab Spring and resulting conflict and instability in previously relatively stable and prosperous nations, the removal of Saddam Hussein's oppressive but stabilising regime in Iraq. The Saudi leadership will see their actions as completely necessary to maintain control and stability in their country, and they probably are, but they will also want to present a different image to the rest of the world and that almost certainty is at least an element of their reason for investment in sport.

 

 

 

 

They do want to showcase themselves in a different light to the world, but in terms of prestige, power and wealth and success. Not human rights or whatever. That attracts in itself further wealth, further success, prestige and power. If they suddenly become the powerhouse of the biggest sport in the world what does that say? Hey forget about the rights of gay people or does it say hey, you want success in sport? We are your people. Same with arms, oil, other industries. Again, sportswashing will occur, but that’s not their intention because honestly, given their ties with the U.K. and the US, their wealth and their religious power, they probably don’t give a fuck. It’s only when we do and their own people may things change. I’d be 100% for sanctions against them akin to Russia and I’m not happy they own our club and outside the odd cup game for the boys I’ll probably never attend SJP again, that’s not because I’m anti SA, but more so because football is shit and corrupt basically and a massive chore and expense these days. 

[Guest HTT II]

9 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Guys, we literally have a thread for sports washing can we keep this one on topic and move this talk to the relevant thread?

If you don’t like our rights to post, fuck off to SA!

[Nucasol]

10 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Guys, we literally have a thread for sports washing can we keep this one on topic and move this talk to the relevant thread?

Agreed - people are subverting Big Svennis’s moment of glory.

[TheBrownBottle]

2 minutes ago, HTT II said:

It’s not about turning a profit, it’s about the brand and having an asset than can be shown as them being a success and grandeur, the last thing on their minds is NUFC won today, that will shut people complaining about gay rights up for a week. It’s purely business. Any sportswashing that does follow is a by product and from many people that have no association with SA or even NUFC. My point is SA or PIF did not buy NUFC as a sportswashing exercise and anyone who believes they did is deluded. 

The success and grandeur element is the sportswashing bit - it’s reputation laundering.  The same for the boxing, F1, golf etc.

 

I completely get where you’re coming from re it won’t make people forget the terrible abuses - but the idea is to have people think of success first, and then ‘oh that’s right, they give people lashes in public squares’ afterwards.  Joe Public isn’t a member of Amnesty, and plenty don’t give a shite about human rights abuses; if everyone did care, Amnesty wouldn’t need to exist.  It would’ve saved me a couple of decades worth of AI membership fees if they did.

 

Doesn’t mean anyone should feel guilty about supporting the club, nor should they be made to feel guilty - we don’t govern the owner’s intent for the club.  

[TRon]

3 minutes ago, Nucasol said:

Agreed - people are subverting Big Svennis’s moment of glory.

 

I don't even want Sven Botman here any more, he brings far too much political baggage with the sportswashing, and not to mention possibly being tempted by filthy F1 cash from Burlosconi.