Sven Botman: targeting January return (Howe)

[Guest HTT II]

2 minutes ago, Milanista said:

He'd be in a really tough position at Milan. Kalulu has emerged as a darling among Milan fans--the only way they could stomach Botman was Kalulu playing as a RB--and many were skeptical of Botman, but then Stam (who we like) talked him up, and if Maldini wants a defender, well, you put your doubts aside, right?

 

We just re-signed Florenzi, our second-choice RB, and with our new captain, local boy from our youth Calabria (new captain), Kalulu isn't going to be playing RB, but CB, so Botman would be fighting with our new wonderboy (first professional appearance in football, in his life, for Milan) plus the most popular Englishman in Italy, Tomori, and the return of an actual hero in Kjaer from his ACL surgery in November.

 

He would have had to hit the ground running, from day one, and I think that was a bad situation for him. Newcastle has ambition and your team isn't being built in a moronic way. You seem to have the best English manager, genuinely, because he seems to have way more tactical know-how than Southgate, and that guy runs England. Insane what a cup run with overwhelming talent can do for a caretaker, eh?

 

I think Chelsea are going to fall behind, they might even run into a little bit of an Arsenal/Man Utd phase, while Conte's tenure at Spurs is going to end poorly, even if he wins something, Conte burns players, executives, and fans out. I think Arteta is overrated, so I think there's a pathway to get to top four, if you up your squad quality, particularly in attack. I guess a big part of that is how will Saint Maximin handle increased expectations? Can he be more consistent? Will Calum be able to score like you need him to? I'm sure there are other areas, but I don't think the EPL is as strong as people believe, because, once you go past Liverpool and City, I think the quality drops dramatically.

 

Chelsea should be better, but Tuchel is getting a lot of leeway with his CL win. But he's done poorly with the tools at his disposal. I love how Lukaku's failure is being spun as Tuchel being handed a misfit. Yes, Lukaku is just... he's a weird guy. He really is. He's back at Inter, but he's still a massive loss for Chelsea, and Chelsea weren't bought to add to the vanity of a billionaire. They were bought to make money. Like Arsenal, like Man Utd. They don't seem to be making moves that show a massive shift in philosophy, they're looking to grab Sterling, after Tuchel has done nothing with Werner, Pulisic, Ziyech, Lukaku, and Havertz. He didn't buy most of them, but he's the one who decided against keeping Giroud. He's the one who let Tammy go. Chelsea let Tomori go, and correct me if I'm wrong: don't Chelsea need a CB?

 

I'm not predicting you'll get top 4, but I think you can challenge for it. It's probably more natural to get EL first, to let your squad handle the rigors of Europe, also help Howe, as well. But I think it's Liverpool, City, and everyone else, the gap is huge. Especially as Ten Hag has such a huge uphill battle with Man Utd. He's a good coach, but it's still the idiots who run Man Utd, their proteges, they're there still. They still don't get why they've messed up. They still are going to bank on Bruno Fernandes? It's just a mess, and if Ten Hag actually gets support, he can turn things around, but he'll need a year, because there is a lot of expensive defenders who aren't going to help him there.

 

You just need to be patient with Botman, because, unlike Bruno, Paqueta, or Trippier, he hasn't had to deal with expectations yet. He's a smart kid, but, VVD comparisons are not going to help a kid who still needs to learn his trade.

Seriously, I could read your posts all day long, you’ve perfectly summed up where we are, where we can go and where the current top four or 5 are right now in the PL. With sound incremental investments, some patience and development we are as prime as anyone to become a top 4 club in the coming seasons. Klopp and Pep won’t be around forever and I can see Spurs, Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea burning through managers and massive spends to try and maintain top 4/challenging for honours, we just need to be patient as fans with Howe and the ‘process’. I do hope we can because after the last decade or so, the last 6 months or whatever under Howe feels like success on its own and now we have signed a player you guys wanted. We couldn’t dream of that under Ashley.

[KaKa]

7 minutes ago, Milanista said:

He'd be in a really tough position at Milan. Kalulu has emerged as a darling among Milan fans--the only way they could stomach Botman was Kalulu playing as a RB--and many were skeptical of Botman, but then Stam (who we like) talked him up, and if Maldini wants a defender, well, you put your doubts aside, right?

 

We just re-signed Florenzi, our second-choice RB, and with our new captain, local boy from our youth Calabria (new captain), Kalulu isn't going to be playing RB, but CB, so Botman would be fighting with our new wonderboy (first professional appearance in football, in his life, for Milan) plus the most popular Englishman in Italy, Tomori, and the return of an actual hero in Kjaer from his ACL surgery in November.

 

He would have had to hit the ground running, from day one, and I think that was a bad situation for him. Newcastle has ambition and your team isn't being built in a moronic way. You seem to have the best English manager, genuinely, because he seems to have way more tactical know-how than Southgate, and that guy runs England. Insane what a cup run with overwhelming talent can do for a caretaker, eh?

 

I think Chelsea are going to fall behind, they might even run into a little bit of an Arsenal/Man Utd phase, while Conte's tenure at Spurs is going to end poorly, even if he wins something, Conte burns players, executives, and fans out. I think Arteta is overrated, so I think there's a pathway to get to top four, if you up your squad quality, particularly in attack. I guess a big part of that is how will Saint Maximin handle increased expectations? Can he be more consistent? Will Calum be able to score like you need him to? I'm sure there are other areas, but I don't think the EPL is as strong as people believe, because, once you go past Liverpool and City, I think the quality drops dramatically.

 

Chelsea should be better, but Tuchel is getting a lot of leeway with his CL win. But he's done poorly with the tools at his disposal. I love how Lukaku's failure is being spun as Tuchel being handed a misfit. Yes, Lukaku is just... he's a weird guy. He really is. He's back at Inter, but he's still a massive loss for Chelsea, and Chelsea weren't bought to add to the vanity of a billionaire. They were bought to make money. Like Arsenal, like Man Utd. They don't seem to be making moves that show a massive shift in philosophy, they're looking to grab Sterling, after Tuchel has done nothing with Werner, Pulisic, Ziyech, Lukaku, and Havertz. He didn't buy most of them, but he's the one who decided against keeping Giroud. He's the one who let Tammy go. Chelsea let Tomori go, and correct me if I'm wrong: don't Chelsea need a CB?

 

I'm not predicting you'll get top 4, but I think you can challenge for it. It's probably more natural to get EL first, to let your squad handle the rigors of Europe, also help Howe, as well. But I think it's Liverpool, City, and everyone else, the gap is huge. Especially as Ten Hag has such a huge uphill battle with Man Utd. He's a good coach, but it's still the idiots who run Man Utd, their proteges, they're there still. They still don't get why they've messed up. They still are going to bank on Bruno Fernandes? It's just a mess, and if Ten Hag actually gets support, he can turn things around, but he'll need a year, because there is a lot of expensive defenders who aren't going to help him there.

 

You just need to be patient with Botman, because, unlike Bruno, Paqueta, or Trippier, he hasn't had to deal with expectations yet. He's a smart kid, but, VVD comparisons are not going to help a kid who still needs to learn his trade.

 

Honestly, I can't believe the mess Tuchel is making of that Chelsea squad. Think there is a potential massive disaster brewing over there. They still haven't managed to bring anyone in either.

[Guest HTT II]

Oh and I rate Tuchel, but his CL win aside, which is a lottery anyway, as impressive an achievement as it was, the league is the true barometer of a club and it’s success or standing and his team do not play attractive football, and a good number of them haven’t improved or kicked on and the failure to get the best out of Lukaku is not all down to him, all of their attackers have under performed. That’s on Tuchel, his tactics and his system and style of play. I will go on recaord and say he’ll get sacked before the end of next season’s finish!

[GeordieDazzler]

5 minutes ago, LionOfGosforth said:

 

Top notch analysis as usual. To address one of those points, I think Chelsea were supposed to be buying Kounde, not sure where that stands though

Think De Ligt is the strongest rumour at the moment. Werner+cash

[Abacus]

13 minutes ago, 80 said:

Yes. On a bittersweet note, it's pretty clear he knows more about the PL than NUFC and that's his main driver, though I appreciate him being honest about that. Shows we have some work to do with re-establishing ourselves internationally and in the minds of younger players. I guess he probably wasn't potty trained when Bellamy put Feyenoord out of the Champion's League. That's a battle the owners will have to keep fighting for the next couple of years at least when it comes to winning sought after signings like this guy.

 

 

I was thinking about this the other day too, and it's yet another bit of damage Ashley did.

 

I remember when we first signed a few talented players from France under MA, and a few of them were saying how they'd seen the likes of Ginola playing for us, so they knew it was a big club.

 

Rewind the last 14 years and we've been a stepping stone club treading water ever since. It's no wonder players in their early 20's with a bit of ambition barely know us.

 

So, cheers Mike. And well done to whoever persuaded Botman to join, the only way to start to turn this around.

[Milanista]

Just now, LionOfGosforth said:

 

Top notch analysis as usual. To address one of those points, I think Chelsea were supposed to be buying Kounde, not sure where that stands though

Thank you. Kounde is a low-block defender, and he's good, but even with him, they have problems. Thiago Silva is an incredible player, but he's still 37-going-on-38. When your owner is in the room making choices, unless he's some secret tactics and value nerd, he's going to make poor decisions.

 

American owners are seeking value. And frankly speaking, they bought Chelsea at a premium considering it was a distressed asset. Abramovich had to sell. Chelsea don't control their own stadium, and they want to build a new one, the problem is the pitch owners association license the rights to the name Chelsea, itself, and require that Chelsea play at Stamford Bridge to do that. So they overpaid (in my opinion) and don't seem to be putting in a management team that goes beyond the "I play FIFA and this guy is hyped" that plagues most clubs' (around the world) mentalities.

 

Their offense is abysmal. Lukaku was their top scorer, and no only did they misuse him, he was being weird, living in this parallel universe. He's got insane talent, strength, speed, everything. People act like the EPL broke him. He scored more for West Brom in the league than he ever did for Inter. Do people forget his time at Everton? So weird how people act like that didn't happen. Inter with Conte played to his strengths. Inter now? We'll see.

 

Your competition for European spots is pretty weak. The way Newcastle played the second half of the season, I wouldn't be surprised to see you guys top 6.

[STM]

Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Spurs will have top 4 nailed down next year, which means regardless of anything Arsenal and Man Utd will be considered in crisis.

 

In this scenario ETH will rightly get another season because he's got shitloads to do but Arteta will get sacked.

 

We need to aim for 7th and I will say it until we are blue in the face. We are competing with West Ham and Leicester for that spot and alot will come down to who gets the most results against the top 6.

[Milanista]

7 minutes ago, HTT II said:

Oh and I rate Tuchel, but his CL win aside, which is a lottery anyway, as impressive an achievement as it was, the league is the true barometer of a club and it’s success or standing and his team do not play attractive football, and a good number of them haven’t improved or kicked on and the failure to get the best out of Lukaku is not all down to him, all of their attackers have under performed. That’s on Tuchel, his tactics and his system and style of play. I will go on recaord and say he’ll get sacked before the end of next season’s finish!

I look at Tuchel's CL win against City as Pep bottling it, again, rather than Tuchel winning it. I love how Pep gets to "overthink" when he loses, but every other manager just loses. Pep has no excuses, I find the idea of him being the greatest manager of all time to be absurd. I've never seen someone do so poorly with so much and not get more stick for it, outside of like, banter, ha ha.

 

Tuchel plays like a coward. He's just German Conte, but he's better in Europe. Conte is terrible in Europe. Allegri, another terrible manager, is better than Conte. Conte just rides people, he's above-average tactically, but he's able to get the most out of players--that I can't take away from him.

 

Tuchel just blames others. He hasn't improved a single attacking player. Even Havertz, whne you think about what they spent on him? Ziyech and Pulisic? He should have players who can score, he shouldn't have Jorginho be his top scorer in a season.

 

Tuchel should have beat Bayern with his PSG team. Bayern were torn apart by Lyon, and if they only finished, they would have beaten Bayern. The blueprint to beating Bayern was there, and did he use it? No.

 

Lol, I'm sorry, HTT, I really admire your positions, and thank you for your kind welcoming of me, but I am very anti-Tuchel.

[LionOfGosforth]

8 minutes ago, Milanista said:

Thank you. Kounde is a low-block defender, and he's good, but even with him, they have problems. Thiago Silva is an incredible player, but he's still 37-going-on-38. When your owner is in the room making choices, unless he's some secret tactics and value nerd, he's going to make poor decisions.

 

American owners are seeking value. And frankly speaking, they bought Chelsea at a premium considering it was a distressed asset. Abramovich had to sell. Chelsea don't control their own stadium, and they want to build a new one, the problem is the pitch owners association license the rights to the name Chelsea, itself, and require that Chelsea play at Stamford Bridge to do that. So they overpaid (in my opinion) and don't seem to be putting in a management team that goes beyond the "I play FIFA and this guy is hyped" that plagues most clubs' (around the world) mentalities.

 

Their offense is abysmal. Lukaku was their top scorer, and no only did they misuse him, he was being weird, living in this parallel universe. He's got insane talent, strength, speed, everything. People act like the EPL broke him. He scored more for West Brom in the league than he ever did for Inter. Do people forget his time at Everton? So weird how people act like that didn't happen. Inter with Conte played to his strengths. Inter now? We'll see.

 

Your competition for European spots is pretty weak. The way Newcastle played the second half of the season, I wouldn't be surprised to see you guys top 6.

 

I'm still finding my way "back" to being someone who watches football every week and still re-developing my knowledge of the game as much has changed. Fan since the early 80's but the Ashley years broke me and I distanced myself from the sport almost entirely since Rafa left and until the takeover and EH happened. You write with such eloquence and knowledge, I hope you stick around, you've been a very valuable addition to our forum

[Guest HTT II]

4 minutes ago, LionOfGosforth said:

 

I'm still finding my way "back" to being someone who watches football every week and still re-developing my knowledge of the game as much has changed. Fan since the early 80's but the Ashley years broke me and I distanced myself from the sport almost entirely since Rafa left and until the takeover and EH happened. You write with such eloquence and knowledge, I hope you stick around, you've been a very valuable addition to our forum

Aye I’m finding a new found love of it and I never used to watch YouTube reels of players I’d never heard of even under Ashley even if we signed one of them, I just couldn’t find the enthusiasm, but if Kaka for example now posts a video I’m watching the shit out of it and I’m even looking at Milan’s squad and who they are after, again a new found love of the game. I know so little though of clubs, players, where teams are at or not so it’s kind of like when I first got into following the sport. I’m like a kid in a sweet shop these days ha ha.

[Guest HTT II]

10 minutes ago, Milanista said:

I look at Tuchel's CL win against City as Pep bottling it, again, rather than Tuchel winning it. I love how Pep gets to "overthink" when he loses, but every other manager just loses. Pep has no excuses, I find the idea of him being the greatest manager of all time to be absurd. I've never seen someone do so poorly with so much and not get more stick for it, outside of like, banter, ha ha.

 

Tuchel plays like a coward. He's just German Conte, but he's better in Europe. Conte is terrible in Europe. Allegri, another terrible manager, is better than Conte. Conte just rides people, he's above-average tactically, but he's able to get the most out of players--that I can't take away from him.

 

Tuchel just blames others. He hasn't improved a single attacking player. Even Havertz, whne you think about what they spent on him? Ziyech and Pulisic? He should have players who can score, he shouldn't have Jorginho be his top scorer in a season.

 

Tuchel should have beat Bayern with his PSG team. Bayern were torn apart by Lyon, and if they only finished, they would have beaten Bayern. The blueprint to beating Bayern was there, and did he use it? No.

 

Lol, I'm sorry, HTT, I really admire your positions, and thank you for your kind welcoming of me, but I am very anti-Tuchel.

Again I rate him, but I don’t think he is someone to build a sustainable title winning league team, especially here, and he’s kind of blown it with that Chelsea squad last season which on paper was arguably the strongest and with the most depth. It does show how, in Europe and cups, it’s not always about having the best team on paper, the best players or even the best manager, your team pissed all over Rafa’s Liverpool in Istanbul player for player, but yous lost. Again the true barometer is the domestic league, and LFC as European Champions couldn’t win the league and nor will Chelsea under Tuchel.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Never see a man so enthusiastic about clean sheets. 

[Guest HTT II]

Rather win 1-0 than 4-3? Bad vibes already. Us fans would rather lose 4-3 than win 1-0…

[80]

44 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

I mean it's to be expected man, don't think it's that big of a deal. The good thing is that with the way the club is now, he's going to love being a part of it, and that is far more important than what he knew about it previously. These are all really young guys.

 

With more recent success the club will become more recognisable, I mean just look at Man City. No one was joining them initially because they were enamoured by their history. 

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree. It was just quite striking how we're pretty much a fresh entity to him. Slightly different because he's English, but contrast with the somewhat older Isaac Hayden who was talking about how he still remembered Newcastle from his youth when he caught the tail end of our European campaigns and still thought of us as being one of the traditional big boys when he came here.

 

Like I say, no problem at all with Botman for that.

[Milanista]

2 minutes ago, HTT II said:

Again I rate him, but I don’t think he is someone to build a sustainable title winning league team, especially here, and he’s kind of blown it with that Chelsea squad last season which on paper was arguably the strongest and with the most depth. It does show how, in Europe and cups, it’s not always about having the best team on paper, the best players or even the best manager, your team pissed all over Rafa’s Liverpool in Istanbul player for player, but yous lost. Again the true barometer is the domestic league, and LFC as European Champions couldn’t win the league and nor will Chelsea under Tuchel.

If I wanted to be fair to Tuchel, injuries really derailed his season. His offense is really predicated on his wing-backs, and without them, his system crumbles. Personally? I think that underlines that he lacks imagination, the ability to innovate, and the skill to make the best out of bad situations.

 

I disagree, I think the CL is the ultimate barometer of teams, because in a league, if you're a big team, most of your games are going to be against teams that have less resources than you do, worse players, it's about whether you are consistent, and there's obviously a huge value in the league.

 

But in the CL, even the small teams aren't pushovers. Sure, you'll play an AEK Athens or Club Brugge, but they can surprise you. The knock-out rounds are two-legged ties, and if it was single game elimination, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

 

Istanbul was only possible because of Gerrard diving for a penalty. Without that penalty, Milan would have won. If an Italian had dived like that, it would have been described as "dark arts" (the new term of art in England it seems) and cheating--we were the better team, in fact, we were the best team in the world from 2002-2007, and should have won the CL every year. In 2006 we faced Barca in the semis, and as per usual, Barca had ref help, Shevchenko had a perfectly good goal scored taken out which would have allowed us to progress, as we would have smashed that Arsenal team. In 2007, we played cautious, and outplayed Liverpool. Their consolation goal was offside, anyway.

 

Maybe it's because there have been so many scandals in Italy with league titles that I don't value them as much? Or that Milan seems to be the equivalent of Liverpool, where our CL glory clouds our judgment?

[LV]

How does an Italian guy end up writing more eloquently than most English people?

[MrRaspberryJam]

Just now, LV said:

How does an Italian guy end up writing more eloquently than most English people?

 

He's not 9 cans deep on LCL I'd imagine. 

[madras]

3 minutes ago, MrRaspberryJam said:

 

He's not 9 cans deep on LCL I'd imagine. 

Room temperature at that.

[LionOfGosforth]

6 minutes ago, Milanista said:

If I wanted to be fair to Tuchel, injuries really derailed his season. His offense is really predicated on his wing-backs, and without them, his system crumbles. Personally? I think that underlines that he lacks imagination, the ability to innovate, and the skill to make the best out of bad situations.

 

I disagree, I think the CL is the ultimate barometer of teams, because in a league, if you're a big team, most of your games are going to be against teams that have less resources than you do, worse players, it's about whether you are consistent, and there's obviously a huge value in the league.

 

But in the CL, even the small teams aren't pushovers. Sure, you'll play an AEK Athens or Club Brugge, but they can surprise you. The knock-out rounds are two-legged ties, and if it was single game elimination, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

 

Istanbul was only possible because of Gerrard diving for a penalty. Without that penalty, Milan would have won. If an Italian had dived like that, it would have been described as "dark arts" (the new term of art in England it seems) and cheating--we were the better team, in fact, we were the best team in the world from 2002-2007, and should have won the CL every year. In 2006 we faced Barca in the semis, and as per usual, Barca had ref help, Shevchenko had a perfectly good goal scored taken out which would have allowed us to progress, as we would have smashed that Arsenal team. In 2007, we played cautious, and outplayed Liverpool. Their consolation goal was offside, anyway.

 

Maybe it's because there have been so many scandals in Italy with league titles that I don't value them as much? Or that Milan seems to be the equivalent of Liverpool, where our CL glory clouds our judgment?

 

I can't speak to that claim but that group with the experience and sheer quality of Maldini, Nesta, Gattuso, Pirlo, Seedorf, Rui Costa, Shevchenko and I think Crespo (?) was absolutely outstanding and I doubt there were many better.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by LionOfGosforth

[Happinesstan]

Still despise the game as a whole. All the punditry and the gravy train of overpaid idiots justifying the overpaying of idiots. Just happy I can support my club again. I'm not getting too heavily attached, but I'll enjoy the ride.

[Milanista]

1 minute ago, LionOfGosforth said:

 

I can't speak to that claim but that group with the experience and sheer quality of Maldini, Nesta, Gattuso, Pirlo, Seedorf, Rui Costa, Shevchenko and I think Crespo (?) was absolutely outstanding.

We also had Kaka, who we added after we won the 02/03 CL, to replace Rui Costa. We also had Cafu, Jankulovski, Oddo, Inzaghi, Stam, Ronaldo (R9), Ambrosini, Kaladze, Dida, Costacurta, Rivaldo, Redondo, and others. Some got injuries, like Redondo, others didn't pan out, like Rivaldo, but

 

After 2007, I think we leaned in to the glamor-side too much. Our two young guns didn't take off, Gourcuff (talent but terrible attitude) and Pato (injuries) and then there was Gilardino, who scored but not enough, and we had Beckham come in (who impressed people) and just transfer after transfer didn't work, even though Thiago Silva came in (huge unexpected hit), but once Berlusconi started building a new super team, really built on Ibrahimovic and Thiago Silva as the backbone, that's when his political career crashed and he stopped putting money into Milan, we sold off Ibra and Silva, and the unraveling began.

[Chris_R]

4 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

gravy

 

MAG!

[Milanista]

24 minutes ago, LV said:

How does an Italian guy end up writing more eloquently than most English people?

American schooling, plus my mother moved to America when she was young, while my university and graduate work was all in English.

 

So, I'm nothing special, really. But thank you so much for such nice words.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Milanista

[Wolfcastle]

29 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Never see a man so enthusiastic about clean sheets. 

Can see why Milan, epsecially Maldini were so keen. Veteran of the misely Cappello era.

[McDog]

1 hour ago, madras said:

Room temperature at that.

 

 

 

You guys are killing me....