Yorkie Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Just now, HaydnNUFC said: The format not broken, why are people trying to fix it? Some of the suggestions have been pure AIDS. I'm the only one making suggestions so I guess I'll take that feedback. I'm not out waving placards about introducing a relegation play-off system (in truth, a European play-off would be the preferable place to introduce such a thing); it's just intended as a thought exercise around how certain alterations might benefit competition. I don't think "the format isn't broken" is a useful position to hold in this day and age when the nature of the game has changed so drastically over the last thirty years. However I accept @Kid Icarus's point that tinkering with the smaller things probably doesn't address the greater issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Yorkie said: I'm the only one making suggestions so I guess I'll take that feedback. I'm not out waving placards about introducing a relegation play-off system (in truth, a European play-off would be the preferable place to introduce such a thing); it's just intended as a thought exercise around how certain alterations might benefit competition. I don't think "the format isn't broken" is a useful position to hold in this day and age when the nature of the game has changed so drastically over the last thirty years. However I accept @Kid Icarus's point that tinkering with the smaller things probably doesn't address the greater issues. The format isn't broken though. It's not really a position to be taken, it's just important to bear that in mind when we discuss unnecessary changes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnNUFC Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, Yorkie said: I'm the only one making suggestions so I guess I'll take that feedback. I'm not out waving placards about introducing a relegation play-off system (in truth, a European play-off would be the preferable place to introduce such a thing); it's just intended as a thought exercise around how certain alterations might benefit competition. I don't think "the format isn't broken" is a useful position to hold in this day and age when the nature of the game has changed so drastically over the last thirty years. However I accept @Kid Icarus's point that tinkering with the smaller things probably doesn't address the greater issues. Changing league format ≠ levelling the playing field. Football ownership, regulation, financial workings of the game won't change by introducing playoff systems in the league for relegation or Europe. The way the game has been run since 1992 has fucked football, not league format. Major reform is needed in regards to the aforementioned points. Relegation playoffs, European place playoffs, all-star games. Ugh. Please, just no. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Play-off somewhere is a decent idea. I think the last European competition spot to keep midtable teams engaged. It could also help because some teams don't want to qualify for Europa League and others would be desperate. So the team that actually wants to compete in it would take those play-offs more seriously. 7, 8, 9, 10. Keeping all top half teams with something to play for and gives teams 11-13 something to strive for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Play-off for relegation is a terrible idea. "The drop" is an exciting part of the league run. And it also limits "surprise relegations" like us. You want something that increases the randomness of results not something that entrenches current patterns. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 4 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: Play-off somewhere is a decent idea. I think the last European competition spot to keep midtable teams engaged. It could also help because some teams don't want to qualify for Europa League and others would be desperate. So the team that actually wants to compete in it would take those play-offs more seriously. 7, 8, 9, 10. Keeping all top half teams with something to play for and gives teams 11-13 something to strive for. Just bring back the Intertoto Cup if teams are that desperate to be in the Europa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 7 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said: Changing league format ≠ levelling the playing field. Football ownership, regulation, financial workings of the game won't change by introducing playoff systems in the league for relegation or Europe. The way the game has been run since 1992 has fucked football, not league format. I agree with all of that, hence my last sentence in the post you quoted; I'm all for the idea of major reform. But in the context of major reform definitely not happening any time soon/ever, if positive additions can be made, then we shouldn't resist just because they don't solve the universal problems. Certainly can't see why any Newcastle fan or fans of any non-ESL team would be against a European play-off. Anything to increase the chances of non-ESL teams upsetting the apple cart is surely a good thing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 40 minutes ago, joeyt said: But like Stan says, for the relegation playoff are you saying the side who loses their semi finals then gets to the final and then the loser gets relegated? That's really going to attract the fans You've had a shit season? Here's two more games where you can buy tickets for and if you lose them both you'll be relegated! It would be absolutely horrendous being in it, but imagine watching Everton last season going down because they bottled their two relegation saving games It's obviously pie in the sky, but for the neutral, it could provide pretty decent entertainment IMO In Sweden, the third placed team in the Championship equivalent play the third worst team in the top division. Pretty decent way of ensuring the 'best' team stays in the league. Could be done so that the sixth placed team in the championship is replaced by the 17th team in the Premier League for the Play offs. Though that leads to more dead rubbers in the championship, which already have an awful lot of them, so probably not the best solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Or we could do away with relegation, have 1st in the Premier League v 20th in the Championship, 2nd v 19th, etc so that you could potentially have the league winners getting relegated and the team who just survived dropping to League 1 could get promoted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Just now, joeyt said: Just bring back the Intertoto Cup if teams are that desperate to be in the Europa That's not for the PL to decide. I meant Conference League. Teams qualifying for Europe and getting knocked out straight away (Burnley and Wolves spring to mind) is bad for the league. A lot of clubs don't want it either, so gives them a get out. Selfishly it benefits us too. I think winning the Conference and Europa comps are good paths to CL qualification and upping our reputation across the world. But finishing 7th is difficult. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 1 minute ago, The College Dropout said: That's not for the PL to decide. I meant Conference League. Teams qualifying for Europe and getting knocked out straight away (Burnley and Wolves spring to mind) is bad for the league. A lot of clubs don't want it either, so gives them a get out. Selfishly it benefits us too. I think winning the Conference and Europa comps are good paths to CL qualification and upping our reputation across the world. But finishing 7th is difficult. Winning the Conference League doesn't get you CL qualification Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnNUFC Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 3 minutes ago, Yorkie said: I agree with all of that, hence my last sentence in the post you quoted; I'm all for the idea of major reform. But in the context of major reform definitely not happening any time soon/ever, if positive additions can be made, then we shouldn't resist just because they don't solve the universal problems. Certainly can't see why any Newcastle fan or fans of any non-ESL team would be against a European play-off. Anything to increase the chances of non-ESL teams upsetting the apple cart is surely a good thing? European play off, for what? Champions League? Europa League? Conference League? The latter competition could ostensibly be viewed as that already given 7th achieves it and the winner gets Europa League group stage, especially given the state of some of the teams up to the round of 16 when compared to PL teams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Just now, joeyt said: Winning the Conference League doesn't get you CL qualification It gets you qualification for the Europa League. I do think finishing 4th can sometimes be harder than winning the Europa depending on the route. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 We were only 7 points off 7th last season and we didn;t win a game until December. It's hardly out of our reach without having to participant in a playoff system Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 23 minutes ago, Yorkie said: I'm the only one making suggestions so I guess I'll take that feedback. I'm not out waving placards about introducing a relegation play-off system (in truth, a European play-off would be the preferable place to introduce such a thing); it's just intended as a thought exercise around how certain alterations might benefit competition. I don't think "the format isn't broken" is a useful position to hold in this day and age when the nature of the game has changed so drastically over the last thirty years. However I accept @Kid Icarus's point that tinkering with the smaller things probably doesn't address the greater issues. I'm here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 I don't know, maybe 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th? Winner gets Europa, losing finalist gets Conference? Means finishing 9th still gets you a shot at Europe, all the teams in that 9th-13th region of the table have more to play for, and it increases the chances of one or two of the ESL chums being denied a European place? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 1 minute ago, joeyt said: We were only 7 points off 7th last season and we didn;t win a game until December. It's hardly out of our reach without having to participant in a playoff system But we finished 11th. We had top 5 form second half of last season. Top 6 a doddle then too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: But we finished 11th. We had top 5 form second half of last season. Top 6 a doddle then too? Did West Ham need a playoff to get to Europe the last couple of seasons? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Yorkie said: I don't know, maybe 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th? Winner gets Europa, losing finalist gets Conference? Means finishing 9th still gets you a shot at Europe, all the teams in that 9th-13th region of the table have more to play for, and it increases the chances of one or two of the ESL chums being denied a European place? I was thinking 7-10 for Conference league. Gives most clubs in the league something to for fight for if they want it. I think finishing 6th and not qualifying for Europe at all is harsh. Plus I genuinely think only a few clubs actively want Conference League (from a board perspective). So let's give them a greater chance at qualification. I think soon the PL will have 5 CL places anyway. So 8th might be enough for Conference. Think that's next season? Based on 3 nations with highest co-efficient Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Just now, joeyt said: Did West Ham need a playoff to get to Europe the last couple of seasons? What's the purpose of this question? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: What's the purpose of this question? You said finishing 7th is hard. West Ham have achieved it. Why can't we? Why do we need a playoff to do it Edited September 14, 2022 by joeyt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, joeyt said: You said finishing 7th is hard. West Ham have achieved it. Why can't we? Why do we need a playoff to do it West Ham finished 6th the season prior and finished 7th while playing in Europe until April/May. West Ham have been a very good team for 2 years. Again, what's your actual point? We don't need a play-off for anything. But I think it would make the league more exciting and it increases our chances of qualifying for Europe. 1 is an opinion and I think the other is a fact. Edited September 14, 2022 by The College Dropout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: West Ham finished 6th the season prior and finished 7th while playing in Europe until April/May. West Ham have been a very good team for 2 years. Again, what's your actual point? My point is that you said 7th is difficult without a playoff when it clearly isn't when teams like West Ham can get to 7th (or higher) two seasons in a row That's not a knock on West Ham they're a good team but if we can't strive to be at the same level as what West Ham are at then what's the point of all our new investment? We don't need a playoff system to get a Europa Conference League spot Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Duper Branko Strupar Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 People advocating for even more games in a season? Mental. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafalove Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Also in the question of an all star game where does the north start? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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