Financial Fair Play / Profit & Sustainability - New APT Rules Approved by Premier League

[SteV]

10 hours ago, Erikse said:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-city-manchester-united-boost-28485683

 

 

Trying really hard to defend City with this one.

 

 

 

I have wondered about that actually. I’m assuming he’s wasn’t at Man City when they were doing all of the ‘cheating’? 
 

As if he was surely he would be tainted to the point of being unemployable within football?

[Cronky]

1 hour ago, SteV said:

I have wondered about that actually. I’m assuming he’s wasn’t at Man City when they were doing all of the ‘cheating’? 
 

As if he was surely he would be tainted to the point of being unemployable within football?

 

I'd say never assume that because someone has been successful in one line of business, that they're necessarily going to make equally wise decisions when it comes to football. Particularly if they're a fan.

 

PS - it may be partly an emotional gesture towards City (ie 'we're bigger than you') And if I were City, seeing someone with a lot of inside knowledge going to my main rival, I might just be getting nervous.

 

 

Edited January 22 by Cronky

[Keegans Export]

Quote

He joined City in 2011, serving as head of international business development, director of partnership sales and then senior vice president group commercial director, before becoming the club’s chief operating officer in 2016.

 

In 2020, he was promoted to a senior role at City Football Group.

That is from the Athletic regarding Berrada

[brummie]

22 hours ago, leffe186 said:

Cheers.

 

Yeah that’s peculiar. He doesn’t say “we don’t have the money” (unsurprisingly) but instead he doesn’t think they should tear down the one stand intended for expansion “while we’re playing like this…I think everything should be about all fans and not just one particular stand”.

 

I’d have to look into the fan discussion but on the face of it that suggests that rather than not having the money for redevelopment of Villa Park, they might actually be looking to build a new ground. Unless @Stifler you have something that says they don’t have the money?

 

My understanding is that a few clubs around Europe are looking at the Tottenham Stadium and thinking that a multi-purpose stadium is the way forward. Maybe Villa are thinking the same.

 

 

We first had plans to replace the North Stand under Lerner. The facilities in it are awful. There is plenty of land behind it to demolish and build new - so, the plans which were put together with Grimshaws (fancy architects) including a much bigger stand plus an entertainments venue behind, loads of space. 

 

The context for this is a 30,000 people season ticket waiting list.

 

However, behind the Witton Lane stand (which is officially called the Doug Ellis stand, a name which has curiously failed to catch on in the years since it was changed) and is where the away fans go there is no room whatsoever to expand. We bought a row of houses to demolish behind the stand which that one replaced in the 90s, and that took forever, to do that again would be difficult. Added to that, the internal areas of the stand are horrendously out of date.

 

Behind the Trinity Road stand is a park, so lots of space there (although part of that is the grounds of a 16th century stately home, which we wouldn't be able to get anywhere near), but that stand is big enough and up to standard.

 

re them pausing the plans - demolition was meant to start the week after the Foo Fighters gig at the end of the season. It has been thus for ages.

 

Two things have happened though. Actually, three.

 

1. Inflation has apparently pushed the cost of steel through the roof and the cost is now way beyond the original 100m.

 

2. We've appointed Chris Heck to basically run the club, from the 76ers (NBA), who clearly has a less-romantic view of Villa Park, but in his favour, has a massive record in hugely boosting revenues (did miracles at the 76ers). He reckons we can fit 3-4,000 seats in by adjusting what we have (no idea how, I actually do not believe this). However, he wasn't involved in the new stand plans so wants to pause. He did make a good point about playing maybe in the Champions League with a three sided ground, but really, taking that route there will never be a 'good' time to close one end of the ground.

 

He has also said - and this is spot on - that the transport infrastructure around the ground is so bad with 42,000, it will be terriible with 52,000. The upgraded ground was supposed to go hand in hand with a rebuild of Witton station to massively improve capacity and the link beween station and ground, but again, it's a complicating factor and an understandable one to cause us to stop and think first.

 

3. Literally in the same week, Edens and Sawiris (who are both incredibly rich, so this is about more than money, it will be expertise) sold a minority chunk of the V Sports Group (which owns us and their other clubs) to Comcast, who, as well as owning Sky, also have a long history in stadium infrastructure (ie funding and building of new ones). In the same week. That is not a coincidence.

 

He has been questioned on whether we are looking at moving to a new stadium somewhere, or rebuilding where we are and swears we're not.

 

Frankly, I don't believe him. He's already proved himself very fucking hard to pin down and force the truth out of on the badge fuck-up, so he has no reason to be honest now. If he said we were looking at moving, there would be an absolute avalanche of protest.

 

I do think, though, that we will be rebuilding where we are. One problem with that is clearly where we play for the two or three years in the meantime (Wolves maybe? No chance Blues, plus it's not big enough even if it wasn't Mordor. Albion maybe but again too small).

 

I don't think we would build elsewhere - despite it clearly being a massive city, the idea of somewhere to the south is a non-starter for historic reasons, the city is pretty dense and there are no obvious places. There would be one possibility, which is the Smithfields area which is where they held some of the CW games last year, and is right slap next to the bullring, but there's a masterplan for retail / shops / offices there, so very unlikely.

 

Anyway, apologies for the length of this post, but I do think this whole saga (much like yours) is indicative of how clubs like us, yourselves, everton have realised that, esp now it seems we really can't just inject money for players endlessly, we need to massively, massively boost commercial revenue.

 

I also think Spurs' success has been an example which a few clubs are now realising they need to imitate to some degree.

 

[leffe186]

6 minutes ago, brummie said:

 

 

We first had plans to replace the North Stand under Lerner. The facilities in it are awful. There is plenty of land behind it to demolish and build new - so, the plans which were put together with Grimshaws (fancy architects) including a much bigger stand plus an entertainments venue behind, loads of space. 

 

The context for this is a 30,000 people season ticket waiting list.

 

However, behind the Witton Lane stand (which is officially called the Doug Ellis stand, a name which has curiously failed to catch on in the years since it was changed) and is where the away fans go there is no room whatsoever to expand. We bought a row of houses to demolish behind the stand which that one replaced in the 90s, and that took forever, to do that again would be difficult. Added to that, the internal areas of the stand are horrendously out of date.

 

Behind the Trinity Road stand is a park, so lots of space there (although part of that is the grounds of a 16th century stately home, which we wouldn't be able to get anywhere near), but that stand is big enough and up to standard.

 

re them pausing the plans - demolition was meant to start the week after the Foo Fighters gig at the end of the season. It has been thus for ages.

 

Two things have happened though. Actually, three.

 

1. Inflation has apparently pushed the cost of steel through the roof and the cost is now way beyond the original 100m.

 

2. We've appointed Chris Heck to basically run the club, from the 76ers (NBA), who clearly has a less-romantic view of Villa Park, but in his favour, has a massive record in hugely boosting revenues (did miracles at the 76ers). He reckons we can fit 3-4,000 seats in by adjusting what we have (no idea how, I actually do not believe this). However, he wasn't involved in the new stand plans so wants to pause. He did make a good point about playing maybe in the Champions League with a three sided ground, but really, taking that route there will never be a 'good' time to close one end of the ground.

 

He has also said - and this is spot on - that the transport infrastructure around the ground is so bad with 42,000, it will be terriible with 52,000. The upgraded ground was supposed to go hand in hand with a rebuild of Witton station to massively improve capacity and the link beween station and ground, but again, it's a complicating factor and an understandable one to cause us to stop and think first.

 

3. Literally in the same week, Edens and Sawiris (who are both incredibly rich, so this is about more than money, it will be expertise) sold a minority chunk of the V Sports Group (which owns us and their other clubs) to Comcast, who, as well as owning Sky, also have a long history in stadium infrastructure (ie funding and building of new ones). In the same week. That is not a coincidence.

 

He has been questioned on whether we are looking at moving to a new stadium somewhere, or rebuilding where we are and swears we're not.

 

Frankly, I don't believe him. He's already proved himself very fucking hard to pin down and force the truth out of on the badge fuck-up, so he has no reason to be honest now. If he said we were looking at moving, there would be an absolute avalanche of protest.

 

I do think, though, that we will be rebuilding where we are. One problem with that is clearly where we play for the two or three years in the meantime (Wolves maybe? No chance Blues, plus it's not big enough even if it wasn't Mordor. Albion maybe but again too small).

 

I don't think we would build elsewhere - despite it clearly being a massive city, the idea of somewhere to the south is a non-starter for historic reasons, the city is pretty dense and there are no obvious places. There would be one possibility, which is the Smithfields area which is where they held some of the CW games last year, and is right slap next to the bullring, but there's a masterplan for retail / shops / offices there, so very unlikely.

 

Anyway, apologies for the length of this post, but I do think this whole saga (much like yours) is indicative of how clubs like us, yourselves, everton have realised that, esp now it seems we really can't just inject money for players endlessly, we need to massively, massively boost commercial revenue.

 

I also think Spurs' success has been an example which a few clubs are now realising they need to imitate to some degree.

 

Nah, really appreciate the long post, was kinda dreading sorting through everything on VitalVilla or wherever

 

It all sounds very much like the sort of issues we were dealing with throughout our own process. I read that statement without really knowing anything about what you guys had been dealing with and it looked to me as though he was saying “we may have to build a new stadium” while simultaneously avoiding saying “we may have to build a new stadium.” 

 

Your last two paragraphs are the crux of the matter in general.

[brummie]

Just now, leffe186 said:

I read that statement without really knowing anything about what you guys had been dealing with and it looked to me as though he was saying “we may have to build a new stadium” while simultaneously avoiding saying “we may have to build a new stadium.” 

 

I think fundamentally, that is exactly what he is doing.

 

I think - and I get that reasoning - he is calculating that we spend an ever increasing amount to fix one problem (the North Stand) but then if we ever want to do anything else (and they've talked about growing to 60,000 lataer if they think we need it) then we're actually going to be faced with a new, even bigger problem (the Witton Lane stand), and an existing problem which will be worse (the transport).

 

It is weird. I understand why he's not saying this clearly, I get that totally. It still annoys me, though. 

[leffe186]

2 minutes ago, brummie said:

 

I think fundamentally, that is exactly what he is doing.

 

I think - and I get that reasoning - he is calculating that we spend an ever increasing amount to fix one problem (the North Stand) but then if we ever want to do anything else (and they've talked about growing to 60,000 lataer if they think we need it) then we're actually going to be faced with a new, even bigger problem (the Witton Lane stand), and an existing problem which will be worse (the transport).

 

It is weird. I understand why he's not saying this clearly, I get that totally. It still annoys me, though. 

We’ve seen the sort of responses he’d get time and again for decades and at so many clubs

 

The stick Levy gets (and will always get, whatever he does) from some Spurs fans blows my mind. Maybe you could do a Man City or West Ham and just hang around until Birmingham hosts an Olympics and then move into a new stadium in Digbeth or wherever for a song

[brummie]

1 minute ago, leffe186 said:

We’ve seen the sort of responses he’d get time and again for decades and at so many clubs

 

The stick Levy gets (and will always get, whatever he does) from some Spurs fans blows my mind. Maybe you could do a Man City or West Ham and just hang around until Birmingham hosts an Olympics and then move into a new stadium in Digbeth or wherever for a song

 

Well, Man City did move into a CW games venue, and there's one of those already about two miles from Villa Park. It's an athletics stadium, though. I'd rather play at St Andrews than have a venue like West Ham's.

 

Digbeth is Blues territory. Somewhere around the Jewellery Quarter would be nice, but again, unlikely because of land needed (plus the fact it has new residential places going up everywhere these days),

[gbandit]

Interestingly, FFP has done far more to damage our club’s fortunes than a lack of regulation. I know there are no simple regulations to put into effect to stop owners destroying clubs but this is comical really

[SteV]

1 hour ago, Keegans Export said:

That is from the Athletic regarding Berrada

So if he ends up and Man Utd and Man City are found guilty, I would expect Ten Hag to be hounded with questions at every press conference following any conviction.

[arnonel]

Apologies if this has been mentioned many times before, but I would be seriously pissed off if City only got away with a relegation.

 

Thats like saying "Here, spend what you want, win many many trophies, have one season in the championship for you to do some squad building and bed in some youth"

 

 

[gbandit]

2 minutes ago, arnonel said:

Apologies if this has been mentioned many times before, but I would be seriously pissed off if City only got away with a relegation.

 

Thats like saying "Here, spend what you want, win many many trophies, have one season in the championship for you to do some squad building and bed in some youth"

 

 

Triple league relegation and transfer window sanctions 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, arnonel said:

Apologies if this has been mentioned many times before, but I would be seriously pissed off if City only got away with a relegation.

 

Thats like saying "Here, spend what you want, win many many trophies, have one season in the championship for you to do some squad building and bed in some youth"

 

 

 

Juventus got away with this.

[leffe186]

1 hour ago, gbandit said:

Interestingly, FFP has done far more to damage our club’s fortunes than a lack of regulation. I know there are no simple regulations to put into effect to stop owners destroying clubs but this is comical really

How do you know? Imagine how far ahead everyone else would be with no regulation and Mike Ashley in charge for over ten years.

 

Maybe Liverpool is owned by Saudi Arabia, Man City by UAE, West Ham by Qatar, Aston Villa by Indonesia - whatever. Who knows?

 

[duo]

3 hours ago, arnonel said:

Apologies if this has been mentioned many times before, but I would be seriously pissed off if City only got away with a relegation.

 

Thats like saying "Here, spend what you want, win many many trophies, have one season in the championship for you to do some squad building and bed in some youth"

 

 

A ban from CL for a decade would need to be added.  Also transfer ban for 5 years.

[Isaksbigrightfoot]

115 allegations if anyone has not seen them yet.

 

There is some serious stuff in the list mind.

 

https://www.givemesport.com/football-soccer-man-city-ffp-charges-list/

[David Edgar]

Doesn't matter, their legal team will have it permanently tangled up.

[huss9]

4 hours ago, brummie said:

 

 

We first had plans to replace the North Stand under Lerner. The facilities in it are awful. There is plenty of land behind it to demolish and build new - so, the plans which were put together with Grimshaws (fancy architects) including a much bigger stand plus an entertainments venue behind, loads of space. 

 

The context for this is a 30,000 people season ticket waiting list.

 

However, behind the Witton Lane stand (which is officially called the Doug Ellis stand, a name which has curiously failed to catch on in the years since it was changed) and is where the away fans go there is no room whatsoever to expand. We bought a row of houses to demolish behind the stand which that one replaced in the 90s, and that took forever, to do that again would be difficult. Added to that, the internal areas of the stand are horrendously out of date.

 

Behind the Trinity Road stand is a park, so lots of space there (although part of that is the grounds of a 16th century stately home, which we wouldn't be able to get anywhere near), but that stand is big enough and up to standard.

 

re them pausing the plans - demolition was meant to start the week after the Foo Fighters gig at the end of the season. It has been thus for ages.

 

Two things have happened though. Actually, three.

 

1. Inflation has apparently pushed the cost of steel through the roof and the cost is now way beyond the original 100m.

 

2. We've appointed Chris Heck to basically run the club, from the 76ers (NBA), who clearly has a less-romantic view of Villa Park, but in his favour, has a massive record in hugely boosting revenues (did miracles at the 76ers). He reckons we can fit 3-4,000 seats in by adjusting what we have (no idea how, I actually do not believe this). However, he wasn't involved in the new stand plans so wants to pause. He did make a good point about playing maybe in the Champions League with a three sided ground, but really, taking that route there will never be a 'good' time to close one end of the ground.

 

He has also said - and this is spot on - that the transport infrastructure around the ground is so bad with 42,000, it will be terriible with 52,000. The upgraded ground was supposed to go hand in hand with a rebuild of Witton station to massively improve capacity and the link beween station and ground, but again, it's a complicating factor and an understandable one to cause us to stop and think first.

 

3. Literally in the same week, Edens and Sawiris (who are both incredibly rich, so this is about more than money, it will be expertise) sold a minority chunk of the V Sports Group (which owns us and their other clubs) to Comcast, who, as well as owning Sky, also have a long history in stadium infrastructure (ie funding and building of new ones). In the same week. That is not a coincidence.

 

He has been questioned on whether we are looking at moving to a new stadium somewhere, or rebuilding where we are and swears we're not.

 

Frankly, I don't believe him. He's already proved himself very fucking hard to pin down and force the truth out of on the badge fuck-up, so he has no reason to be honest now. If he said we were looking at moving, there would be an absolute avalanche of protest.

 

I do think, though, that we will be rebuilding where we are. One problem with that is clearly where we play for the two or three years in the meantime (Wolves maybe? No chance Blues, plus it's not big enough even if it wasn't Mordor. Albion maybe but again too small).

 

I don't think we would build elsewhere - despite it clearly being a massive city, the idea of somewhere to the south is a non-starter for historic reasons, the city is pretty dense and there are no obvious places. There would be one possibility, which is the Smithfields area which is where they held some of the CW games last year, and is right slap next to the bullring, but there's a masterplan for retail / shops / offices there, so very unlikely.

 

Anyway, apologies for the length of this post, but I do think this whole saga (much like yours) is indicative of how clubs like us, yourselves, everton have realised that, esp now it seems we really can't just inject money for players endlessly, we need to massively, massively boost commercial revenue.

 

I also think Spurs' success has been an example which a few clubs are now realising they need to imitate to some degree.

 

get ready for some bruised gashed knees.

[timeEd32]

5 hours ago, brummie said:

2. We've appointed Chris Heck to basically run the club, from the 76ers (NBA), who clearly has a less-romantic view of Villa Park, but in his favour, has a massive record in hugely boosting revenues (did miracles at the 76ers).

 

 

I'm not saying he doesn't know what he's doing, but I'm also skeptical of this borderline business genius type of talk around him (not just you, I've seen it many places). In the four years preceding him stepping into the lead role in Philly the Sixers were one of the worst teams in the history of the sport (largely on purpose). He starts his job and suddenly they are one of the best, in the playoffs every year with an annual MVP candidate. You'd have to be asleep at the wheel to not capitalize on that in one of America's most sports crazed cities.

 

This was also year six of the Josh Harris led ownership group, who everyone considers to be excellent (and is now showing early signs of moving the NFL's Washington Commanders in the right direction).

 

Fortunately for him, he may be landing at Villa at a similarly fortuitous time.

[Slim]

Failure to cooperate with Premier League investigations from December 2018 - present

35

Can't be hard to prove them tbh

[Nucasol]

11 minutes ago, Slim said:

Failure to cooperate with Premier League investigations from December 2018 - present

35

Can't be hard to prove them tbh

They’ll argue that legal documents take time to assess, prepare and respond to and the PL’s timescales are unreasonable. Probably some of the easier ones to dismiss rather than the Father Ted “it was just resting in my account” ones.

 

[Jonas]

7 hours ago, gbandit said:

Interestingly, FFP has done far more to damage our club’s fortunes than a lack of regulation. I know there are no simple regulations to put into effect to stop owners destroying clubs but this is comical really

After 13years of Ashley it feels like a right slap in the face. What he did was just fine. The opposite forbidden.  Hard not to take it personally going from one extreme to the other and getting shafted both times.

 

 

Edited January 22 by Jonas

[Mahoneys Tache]

2 hours ago, Jonas said:

After 13years of Ashley it feels like a right slap in the face. What he did was just fine. The opposite forbidden.  Hard not to take it personally going from one extreme to the other and getting shafted both times.

 

 

 

But things seem to be happening exactly as the owners said it was going to.  They never promised to spunk billions. Stuck within the rules and slowly but surely. Nothing to see here. 

[Ben]

What's stopping us selling Almiron for £100 million ? 

[timeEd32]

Just now, Ben said:

What's stopping us selling Almiron for £100 million ? 

 

Another club offering £100m?