NUFC Transfer Rumours

[KaKa]

6 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

Absolutely. The mackems have signed some players that would have definitely played a role for us this season - in fact they basically signed a new team for the price we paid for the 3 players we signed from the Premier League.

 

Exactly. Honestly, if they can get this figured out and fill out the squad better it would really be the catalyst for a big step forward.

[Harveys Barn]

32 minutes ago, Elbel1 said:

Over the last 10 years all the clubs you name checked have qualified for Europe a massive combined total of 3 times. 

If your goal is midtable obscurity and to mildly flirt with a top 10 finish then it's much safer to take a gamble on players in the 10-30 million bracket. 

That in no way excuses the club for their approach last summer but it does, to a certain degree, explain it. 

I don't agree. As we have budget to ALSO buy some elite players. We need to do both. If we take our Bruno, Hall, Tonali, Miley, etc - and then add a Roefs, Mukiele, KDH, Hujisen, and even a DCL, we are absolutely better as a team than we were this year. Our advantage can come through not being strictly limited to the lower budget range, as the other clubs I listed may be.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

20 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Yes, exactly. Also, the kinds of players Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Palace, Everton (and this season, Sunderland and Leeds) sign that are relatively unheralded or unknown and that cost 10-30m, are the types of players we should be signing to make up the squad and push the first team players, rather than signing them as immediate first team players like those clubs may have to.

 

In some instances though, some of them will even be good enough to go straight into the first team too. Just like Bruno, Botman and Thiaw did.

 

Of course all 3 of those players were signed for more than 10-30m, though. So dont fit that category at all. 2 of those were ~40m 4 years ago, and prices have since gone up. So you'd expect Bruno and Botman to cost more today than they did then. 

 

I forgot PSR has allowed us to buy both must needed first teamers and 10-30m gambles, must have missed that.

[KaKa]

2 minutes ago, Theregulars said:

Which players that fit into such a bracket has Howe been responsible for turning down? 

 

As @SteV correctly points out, which such players have been offered to Howe for review? 

 

Looking at it holistically, I would be surprised if Howe came in knowing that he was going to request Bruno, Botman and Tonali. I think these were players recommended to him and he agreed. There are also players who Howe has likely personally requested and got (Trippier, Burn, Pope, Barnes, Elanga, Ramsey). Some I'm not sure whether recommended to him or requested by him (Tino, Hall [my inclination is that the latter was suggested by Ashworth]) and some have been purchases forced by crap circumstances (Wissa, Woltemade, Vlachodimos). 

 

I think it is entirely reasonable to say that the club as a whole needs to get comfortable sharpish with transacting in the manner of the first category (sensibly priced players from abroad recommended to the manager to fit a style and strategy). There has been - particularly recently - perhaps too much emphasis on the second category, but to me this seems pretty reasonable given (i) Mitchell's narcissism and ineffectiveness meaning that the second category was not available and (ii) that Howe delivered a trophy and two Champions League qualifications with a 7th / 8th best wage budget. 

 

So I don't really see how you can look at the whole picture and say the issue is managerial hubris; perhaps he has overstepped the mark and slapped away suggestions by a DoF unreasonably but from where I sit it looked like he worked fairly harmoniously with Ashworth for a short spell and that he (like many of us) found Mitchell obnoxious. Perhaps in fact Howe is just incredibly difficult to work with and refuses to engage with transfer suggestions which do not relate to his hand-picked "PL-proven" mantra. Personally I reckon he just has a specific skillset and attitude in mind and last summer I think he was left to run / decide matters (and specifically identify players himself) with no warning. Given that he is obsessive about e.g. video analysis of opposing teams, his knowledge base of players' suitability to play for his side will be a lot more detailed re: PL players in my view. I think he will have worked 80-90% on those players over his career compared to Europe-based players. I think he has probably spent only minimal time on leagues outside of Europe. So, when asked to identify players, perhaps he went with his comfort zone (maybe that is blinkered or limited thinking but I think it's probably quite rational). 

 

Certainly we can have a conversation about whether he is still able to identify effective players (Elanga is an undeniable red flag), but I don't see how the situation is caused by Howe being so hubristic that he refuses to sign better value players from outside the Premier League. Even the Summer just gone 2 of the 6 signed were from the Continent, so yes the minority but clearly he's open to the idea.

 

Overall just looks again like trying to interpret matters very narrowly to suit a needlessly absolutist and conclusive narrative. Personally I don't think Eddie Howe is remotely hubristic, he strikes me as humble, modest and very willing to operate backstage while others take the headlines. 

 

I think once we qualified for the Champions League, the approach shifted unfortunately. To trying to establish that position by chasing after more guaranteed players they thought would hit the ground running. The much bigger fees meant that ultimately the squad suffered, as we had to make do with more gaps in back up positions or vastly inferior players that couldn't be improved upon.

[Chicken Dancer]

I said it in the summer but I'd much rather have signed a couple of players to play RW for the combined price of Elanga than pay £55m for him. Might work, might not, but at least you aren't lumbered with a player nobody with a brain would take off your hands now. Plus you'd like to hope you'd at least get something out of 1 of them.

 

People make a valid argument that he had a great season last year (statistically) so it was as much as a 'sure thing' as could be. Well, Jacob Murphy had a great year too by that metric. It was always going to be a huge risk. People also argue 'we only signed him because we couldn't get Mbuemo'. They couldn't be more different for starters - completely different players and we courted Elanga for so long it always felt like we'd get him. Forest were just trying to squeeze as much out of us as possible.

 

Even going back to the summer of 24'. Another disaster, but the reports were it was 'Guehi or nobody' (from Howe) towards the end of the window. Before that we were linked with Max Kilman, James Trafford, Elanga & DCL pretty strongly if my memory serves.  As much as he rocked the boat here and was a bit of a dickhead, I doubt Mitchell came in that summer with grand plans of signing any of those players and bet it went a long way to putting strain on the relationship between the two.

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

32 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Yes, exactly. Also, the kinds of players Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Palace, Everton (and this season, Sunderland and Leeds) sign that are relatively unheralded or unknown and that cost 10-30m, are the types of players we should be signing to make up the squad and push the first team players, rather than signing them as immediate first team players like those clubs may have to.

 

In some instances though, some of them will even be good enough to go straight into the first team too. Just like Bruno, Botman and Thiaw did.

Do you think those players may see the idea of being a guaranteed started at one of those clubs preferable to being a squad player here though? Especially if the wages we can offer aren’t a massive deciding factor in our favour, which is why we were gazumped by the shifty six at every turn last summer

[Theregulars]

5 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

I think once we qualified for the Champions League, the approach shifted unfortunately. To trying to establish that position by chasing after more guaranteed players they thought would hit the ground running. The much bigger fees meant that ultimately the squad suffered, as we had to make do with more gaps in back up positions or vastly inferior players that couldn't be improved upon.

Did it, though? 
 

On qualifying for the CL the first time round, the only “sure-fire” purchase was Barnes (as a squad player). Hall and Tino were very much young with upside and Tonali was new to the league (and looked lost at times at first). 
 

On qualifying for the CL the second time round, I think woltemade was supposed to be young with upside. Otherwise everyone else was for the here and now purpose of improving the squad, which I think was a learning point from CL1 due to the ravage of the injury crisis on a small squad. Certainly at least 2 of the “here and now” purchases haven’t worked (I think you can make a case that Ramsdale has provided fair value for fee and that Ramsey has something about him worth working with, and Thiaw has worked). But again is the strategy about Howe’s hubristic refusal to countenance non-PL proven players? Not for me.

[KaKa]

3 minutes ago, Super Duper Branko Strupar said:

 

Of course all 3 of those players were signed for more than 10-30m, though. So dont fit that category at all. 2 of those were ~40m 4 years ago, and prices have since gone up. So you'd expect Bruno and Botman to cost more today than they did then. 

 

I forgot PSR has allowed us to buy both must needed first teamers and 10-30m gambles, must have missed that.

 

Bruno and Botman were around £35 million with add ons and Thiaw was around £30 million with add ons. Those fees are close enough to the value that was mentioned.

 

That is the upper limit of that range, and with PSR and the need to build a fuller squad, even for must needed first teamers, I don't think we should have been pushing too much further than those sorts of fees for the first team players really, because the squad was so weak and needed other areas addressed.

 

When we actually look at the players that have cost anywhere from £45 million upwards, how many of those have actually proven to be worth that ultimately? Probably just Isak in reality. 

[KaKa]

19 minutes ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

Do you think those players may see the idea of being a guaranteed started at one of those clubs preferable to being a squad player here though? Especially if the wages we can offer aren’t a massive deciding factor in our favour, which is why we were gazumped by the shifty six at every turn last summer

 

We'd still be able to pay them more than those clubs, and with Europe they would play enough games. It's essentially trying to do to those clubs what the so called big six do to Newcastle.

[KaKa]

22 minutes ago, Theregulars said:

Did it, though? 
 

On qualifying for the CL the first time round, the only “sure-fire” purchase was Barnes (as a squad player). Hall and Tino were very much young with upside and Tonali was new to the league (and looked lost at times at first). 
 

On qualifying for the CL the second time round, I think woltemade was supposed to be young with upside. Otherwise everyone else was for the here and now purpose of improving the squad, which I think was a learning point from CL1 due to the ravage of the injury crisis on a small squad. Certainly at least 2 of the “here and now” purchases haven’t worked (I think you can make a case that Ramsdale has provided fair value for fee and that Ramsey has something about him worth working with, and Thiaw has worked). But again is the strategy about Howe’s hubristic refusal to countenance non-PL proven players? Not for me.

 

I think Howe was trying to get players he felt would be more of a certainty to be a "hit" if you will and was willing to pay a premium for those. It just so happened that line of thinking was more likely to mean looking at players already having success in the league.

 

I just think he ended up overdoing this at the cost of then having to settle for having too many sub par players in the squad as backup options, because we then didn't have enough money to improve on some of those positions.

[Rafalove]

Got my heart set on Johan Manzambi, who we’ve been linked with, but I’m worried he’ll be out of our reach by the start if the window.

[Ben]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

I think Howe was trying to get players he felt would be more of a certainty to be a "hit" if you will and was willing to pay a premium for those. It just so happened that line of thinking was more likely to mean looking at players already having success in the league.

 

I just think he ended up overdoing this at the cost of then having to settle for having too many sub par players in the squad as backup options, because we then didn't have enough money to improve on some of those positions.

 

I agree with this, remember he had to plan for a Champions league season as well, so proven players were probably the better choice at the time.

 

This summer will obviously be different, with Suds and Wilson we'll probably see a lot of players leaving and been replaced by younger versions.

 

The only question mark is whether Howe buys into this.

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, Ben said:

 

I agree with this, remember he had to plan for a Champions league season as well, so proven players were probably the better choice at the time.

 

This summer will obviously be different, with Suds and Wilson we'll probably see a lot of players leaving and been replaced by younger versions.

 

The only question mark is whether Howe buys into this.

 

I think he's far more likely to, working alongside Wilson, as they appear to get along. It's pretty much the only option we have going forward now.

 

The main issue I think is going to be how the remaining games go, and what the reaction of the fans will be if they go very badly, and how that might then sway the people at the top when it comes to making a change at the manager position.

[PauloGeordio]

27 minutes ago, Rafalove said:

Got my heart set on Johan Manzambi, who we’ve been linked with, but I’m worried he’ll be out of our reach by the start if the window.

Based on his name alone (I know nothing about him) bring him herm.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

32 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

I think he's far more likely to, working alongside Wilson, as they appear to get along. It's pretty much the only option we have going forward now.

 

The main issue I think is going to be how the remaining games go, and what the reaction of the fans will be if they go very badly, and how that might then sway the people at the top when it comes to making a change at the manager position.

Hopefully they’ve made a decision on Howe already, and we’re already getting close to deals with the first couple of signings. I expect a fairly rough end to the season but I hope the decision isn’t based too much on that. 

[OoOGazOoO]

13 minutes ago, PauloGeordio said:

Based on his name alone (I know nothing about him) bring him herm.

 

Just scouted him on YouTube and he looks great.

 

Also think we could do with some dreadlocks in the team.

 

Buy him.

[The College Dropout]

1 hour ago, KaKa said:

 

I think once we qualified for the Champions League, the approach shifted unfortunately. To trying to establish that position by chasing after more guaranteed players they thought would hit the ground running. The much bigger fees meant that ultimately the squad suffered, as we had to make do with more gaps in back up positions or vastly inferior players that couldn't be improved upon.

Not doubting this may have been the idea. But it always looked like a bad idea.  
 

Nobody thought Ramsey or Elanga would be that bit of quality to really solidify us as CL chasers. Especially compared to Tonali, Isak, Bruno at the time of their signing. 

[The College Dropout]

1 hour ago, KaKa said:

 

Bruno and Botman were around £35 million with add ons and Thiaw was around £30 million with add ons. Those fees are close enough to the value that was mentioned.

 

That is the upper limit of that range, and with PSR and the need to build a fuller squad, even for must needed first teamers, I don't think we should have been pushing too much further than those sorts of fees for the first team players really, because the squad was so weak and needed other areas addressed.

 

When we actually look at the players that have cost anywhere from £45 million upwards, how many of those have actually proven to be worth that ultimately? Probably just Isak in reality. 

Gordon, Livramento, Tonali were bought for £40m in total or more. England internationals, won cups, CL qualification you would assume add-ons have been met. 
 

All of these are successes.  They would all be sold for a profit.  
 

Including Hall, £33m after 12 senior appearances. We spent a premium on all of those.  I’m happy for us to do that if the club really believe in the signing.  
 

We saw in the doc - Ashworth, Howe, Staveley all really believed in Gordon. IMO he had not shown to be worth that money based on output or even talent imo but they all believed he would be. Everyone said we overspent on Gordon, Hall, Tonali, Isak etc. but we really believed.  
 

Again - we were going for players 1-2 years before the other big 6 clubs would.  We need to get back into that.  We took risks on high talent players. We were signing all the players the top 6 just weren’t quite convinced on.  
 

Instead we pivoted to players that were definitely never capable of being close to that elite level (in the main) 

 

 

Edited April 22 by The College Dropout

[AyeDubbleYoo]

34 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Not doubting this may have been the idea. But it always looked like a bad idea.  
 

Nobody thought Ramsey or Elanga would be that bit of quality to really solidify us as CL chasers. Especially compared to Tonali, Isak, Bruno at the time of their signing. 

 

Nah, but they were meant to be better than, say, Murphy and Longstaff. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

25 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Instead we pivoted to players that were definitely never capable of being close to that elite level (in the main) 

 

I think we actually pivoted to fairly elite players, but they all went elsewhere. 

 

I'd say our biggest failing was really being a bit naive about how attractive we would be to signings, given our trophy and CL football. Then we had a catch-up job on our hands to find alternatives. 

 

And we should never be able to discuss the transfer strategy without mentioning Isak either. 

[The College Dropout]

18 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

Nah, but they were meant to be better than, say, Murphy and Longstaff. 

That wasn't going to keep us challenging for the CL. We needed Gordon/Barnes level on the right as a minimum and Joelinton level at CM as a minimum.

[The College Dropout]

17 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

I think we actually pivoted to fairly elite players, but they all went elsewhere. 

 

I'd say our biggest failing was really being a bit naive about how attractive we would be to signings, given our trophy and CL football. Then we had a catch-up job on our hands to find alternatives. 

 

And we should never be able to discuss the transfer strategy without mentioning Isak either. 

That was naive and I don't totally agree.

 

I don't think Mbeumo, JP, Sesko are elite. But they are more proven than we can go for. Even Madueke went to Arsenal right. We need to be getting the Madueke that went to Chelsea. We need to get talents 1 or 2 years before the cavalry arrive.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Just now, The College Dropout said:

That was naive and I don't totally agree.

 

I don't think Mbeumo, JP, Sesko are elite. But they are more proven than we can go for. Even Madueke went to Arsenal right. We need to be getting the Madueke that went to Chelsea. We need to get talents 1 or 2 years before the cavalry arrive.

 

Hmm yeah, really I was just saying that we did go for people with potential to be elite. Initially. They just didn't want to sign for us. 

 

Agree on the point of getting in earlier, but that's a slightly separate question. You seemed to be saying we were trying for a lower level of player than we actually were. 

 

Even Woltemade was very highly rated and wanted by Bayern. 

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

1 hour ago, KaKa said:

Bruno and Botman were around £35 million with add ons and Thiaw was around £30 million with add ons. Those fees are close enough to the value that was mentioned.

So £40m, then. Not in the 10-30m bracket at all. You can add an extra 10m on those in today's market as well. S0 those kind of singings would absolutely not fall in to a 10-30m bracket.

[KaKa]

12 minutes ago, Super Duper Branko Strupar said:

So £40m, then. Not in the 10-30m bracket at all. You can add an extra 10m on those in today's market as well. S0 those kind of singings would absolutely not fall in to a 10-30m bracket.

 

Cool