England's Lewis Hall

[Toon1892]

2 hours ago, M1tche said:

This is a mental take in my opinion, we've lost just as many goals because of Burn at LB than it has saved from set pieces. 

 

what would be the point of signing him if we dont want to play him because of his height?

 

Once we're back to full strength, there is no reason we can play both Trippier and Hall. Only them 2 and Bruno are actually short in our team.

I’ve said I wouldn’t play Burn at left back?

 

I just think it would be a risk playing with two small full backs. 
 

The top managers and top teams no longer do it.

 

Yes play Hall 100% but we’ll need to select the games and rotate.

 

Arteta and Guardiola have spent the last 5 years building teams of giants and they’re so far ahead of the rest of the league. Arsenal at set pieces this season have been scary. We couldn’t compete against them at their place in the air.

 

Most fans won’t like it but height is becoming more and more important.

 

I think you should tell Pep and Arteta it’s a mental take playing three cb’s in a back 4. Sounds like you know more than them? Hilarious you think it’s a mental take. Have you not watched the top teams over the last three years lol?

 

We’ve conceded 5 times as many goals from set pieces as Man City this season and almost double as many goals as arsenal have conceded from set pieces.

 

We have scored 6 goals less than arsenal this season. Although we have scored 7 less times from sept pieces. We need to bridge that gap eventually. Yes it will take time but playing Trippier and Hall together every match may not be the answer.

 

 

Edited May 5 by Toon1892

[The College Dropout]

6 hours ago, 80 said:

Yes, this is where it gets silly - when there are attempts to gaslight you into not believing the evidence of your own eyes.

 

Every combination of defenders that didn't involve starting Hall was used until finally Targett, Livramento, Trippier, Lascelles and Botman were all simultaneously injured and we couldn't avoid moving Burn to CB. That's the only reasonable explanation for why Hall has had a run since the West Ham game which crippled our backline. Clinging onto the belief Howe just happened to think Hall had finally stepped up his game in time for the next match is mental.

 

Now, I have a lot of sympathy for @Kanji's point about Joelinton and Ciaran Clark. There's a lot of serendipity in football and life, and a lot of what separates great managers from the rest is the ability to take advantage of it. See Bobby Robson and Francis Jeffers. So this issue doesn't need to get litigated to death, what's done is done. But just making up stuff to match your feelings that Eddie Howe is the best dude ever and anyone who doesn't know it stinks is stupid.

Agreed.

 

I think Howe went too cold with Hall a few months ago. I won't give him massive credit for Hall's form now because he's had no choice. I give him credit for getting the tune out of him now. I wish he had a bit more faith in the lad awhile ago.

 

As you say - serendipity is real. Injuries have given us a run of games of what the future looks like at fullback for us and it does indeed look good. If not for injury crisis both FBs would be on the bench getting few minutes.

[NWMag]

https://x.com/magpiemediax/status/1787216307546411139?s=46&t=V2wv_sDmp20-elneeiPmQg
 

its clear that on pure technical ability he’s one of the better ones in the squad. Hopefully with Tonali back next year and a few more quality additions in the summer we will be looking to have even more possession in games next season, in which case Hall has to be the LB for me.

[OverThere]

IMO Burn gave away more goals being skinned at LB than he saved being tall in the 3 at the back idea. How about playing full backs at full backs and CH at CH. Half of this stuff is a fad and will be seen to be just that.

[Pata]

There are not that many goals you can blame on Burn when he was at LB even if you combine this season and the one before this, no need to rewrite history even if Hall has been decent. 

[Displayname]

2 hours ago, Pata said:

There are not that many goals you can blame on Burn when he was at LB even if you combine this season and the one before this, no need to rewrite history even if Hall has been decent. 

Sure man.

[ExiledGeordie]

I think I’ve seen a few saying he’s not that quick but I’ve not got that impression at all? He certainly doesn’t look slow. His positioning and defensive awareness is only going to improve but there’s no doubting his technical ability. A great player to watch for natural talent. 
 

Assuming he’s starting it’ll be interesting to see how he does in the next 3 games particularly Saturday and Man Utd away. We are going to have to defend a lot more than the last few games. 

[Toon1892]

4 hours ago, OverThere said:

IMO Burn gave away more goals being skinned at LB than he saved being tall in the 3 at the back idea. How about playing full backs at full backs and CH at CH. Half of this stuff is a fad and will be seen to be just that.

A fad? The following managers like playing 3 or 4 cb’s in a back 4:

 

Pep

Arteta

Howe

Emery

 

That might be 4 of the top 5 places come the end of the season.

 

Set pieces are a huge part of the premier league. If other teams become better in the air offensively and defensively you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to work out more and more teams will adopt that model.

 

Bournenouth also started to do it since they had their new manager. They went from bottom 5 to top 10.

[Thumbheed]

Just purely out of curiosity, I'd love to see what he's like in midfield.

 

[Conjo]

9 hours ago, Toon1892 said:

I’ve said I wouldn’t play Burn at left back?

 

I just think it would be a risk playing with two small full backs. 
 

The top managers and top teams no longer do it.

 

Yes play Hall 100% but we’ll need to select the games and rotate.

 

Arteta and Guardiola have spent the last 5 years building teams of giants and they’re so far ahead of the rest of the league. Arsenal at set pieces this season have been scary. We couldn’t compete against them at their place in the air.

 

Most fans won’t like it but height is becoming more and more important.

 

I think you should tell Pep and Arteta it’s a mental take playing three cb’s in a back 4. Sounds like you know more than them? Hilarious you think it’s a mental take. Have you not watched the top teams over the last three years lol?

 

We’ve conceded 5 times as many goals from set pieces as Man City this season and almost double as many goals as arsenal have conceded from set pieces.

 

We have scored 6 goals less than arsenal this season. Although we have scored 7 less times from sept pieces. We need to bridge that gap eventually. Yes it will take time but playing Trippier and Hall together every match may not be the answer.

 

 

Jumping in cold without looked at the discussion previously, but how many set-piece goals have we conceeded with Hall in the side, and how many with Burn at left back?

 

If I remember correctly, we are one of the tallest sides in the league, up there with Arsenal and Man City.

[STM]

This, tall lads at full back, thing is just a phase. Don't follow the crowd.

 

Of course ideally you want a fullback who is not only an absolutely monster but can also play football.

 

Literally 3/4 years ago you had Liverpool and City playing with traditional fullbacks and they were the two best sides in the world.

 

Also worth baring in mind that Tino is actually a monster physically. He would outrun and out battle Ben White (for example), who I think is a very good defender. 

 

There might be games where we feel the need for a big full back, like away from home against big sides but for now let's just concentrate on being the best possible team we can be with the ball.

 

If we are fighting for titles and fullbacks are the issue, then fine but we are nowhere near that.

[STM]

Also, Man City play centre backs at full back and are notoriously leaky on transitions. They only get away with it because they have Kyle Walker and score 5 goals a game. 

 

Be careful what trend you follow.

[Toon1892]

55 minutes ago, Conjo said:

 

Jumping in cold without looked at the discussion previously, but how many set-piece goals have we conceeded with Hall in the side, and how many with Burn at left back?

 

If I remember correctly, we are one of the tallest sides in the league, up there with Arsenal and Man City.

Per game over the last two seasons I’d imagine probably one per game more with Hall in over Burn?

[Toon1892]

17 minutes ago, STM said:

Also, Man City play centre backs at full back and are notoriously leaky on transitions. They only get away with it because they have Kyle Walker and score 5 goals a game. 

 

Be careful what trend you follow.

Yes but the top managers allow conceding 5 or 6 counter attacking goals a season to prevent an extra 12 or 13 set piece goals a season.

 

Sorry but it isn’t rocket science why every top manager is doing it. I know people on this forum know more than Pep and Arteta and would do a better job but please just look at what is happening.

[Gallowgate Toon]

Easier to play CBs at full back when you have top class versatile midfielders and forwards.

 

Feels like wingers are so much less direct these days too which means more lean towards unit defending? 

[Gallowgate Toon]

Also, on the nods to Hall and Tino being up so high often against Burnley. I feel like one of the bigger plans for this season was for Bruno and Tonali to often sit as a 2 in possession and do the whole box structure thing which could allow FBs more license to get forward.

[Coffee_Johnny]

11 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

Agreed.

 

I think Howe went too cold with Hall a few months ago. I won't give him massive credit for Hall's form now because he's had no choice. I give him credit for getting the tune out of him now. I wish he had a bit more faith in the lad awhile ago.

 

As you say - serendipity is real. Injuries have given us a run of games of what the future looks like at fullback for us and it does indeed look good. If not for injury crisis both FBs would be on the bench getting few minutes.

Guess that means you are super confident that he would have performed well if brought in earlier. It did seem odd—all sorts of theories about not tripping a minimum number of appearances clause were doing the rounds—but maybe it is just about trusting the judgement of the experts. The experts who sees him in training and who can gauge when he is ready and when,  perhaps despite obvious potential, he is not. Certainly looks ready now which is the most important thing. 

[Toon1892]

6 minutes ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

Guess that means you are super confident that he would have performed well if brought in earlier. It did seem odd—all sorts of theories about not tripping a minimum number of appearances clause were doing the rounds—but maybe it is just about trusting the judgement of the experts. The experts who sees him in training and who can gauge when he is ready and when,  perhaps despite obvious potential, he is not. Certainly looks ready now which is the most important thing. 

Yeah I agree with this. He did get a few chances before then and played the first half of a couple of matches and didn’t look as ready as he does now.

 

Howe did the same with Bruno and Gordon. Both decisions have been great. Perhaps as an 18 year old lad Howe was protecting him and not throwing him in at the deep end.

 

One thing we aren’t in the north east is patient. But I think with these young players sometimes patience is needed.

[Groundhog63]

Fwiw I think he looks the real deal. 

 

Plenty to learn but he and Tino are something to look forward too seeing on the regular. 

[buzza]

I though he looked nervous for the first ten-fifteen minutes and then played a stormer. He is only a kid and will get much better with more experience.

Really like his passing ability and confidence with the ball, reminds me of Trippier but without the defensive toolkit completely in place.

Was not at all convinced when he first played but I am much more confident with what I have seen lately, good tasty humble pie!!!

[M1tche]

12 hours ago, Toon1892 said:

I’ve said I wouldn’t play Burn at left back?

 

I just think it would be a risk playing with two small full backs. 
 

The top managers and top teams no longer do it.

 

Yes play Hall 100% but we’ll need to select the games and rotate.

 

Arteta and Guardiola have spent the last 5 years building teams of giants and they’re so far ahead of the rest of the league. Arsenal at set pieces this season have been scary. We couldn’t compete against them at their place in the air.

 

Most fans won’t like it but height is becoming more and more important.

 

I think you should tell Pep and Arteta it’s a mental take playing three cb’s in a back 4. Sounds like you know more than them? Hilarious you think it’s a mental take. Have you not watched the top teams over the last three years lol?

 

We’ve conceded 5 times as many goals from set pieces as Man City this season and almost double as many goals as arsenal have conceded from set pieces.

 

We have scored 6 goals less than arsenal this season. Although we have scored 7 less times from sept pieces. We need to bridge that gap eventually. Yes it will take time but playing Trippier and Hall together every match may not be the answer.

 

 

 

The mental take part comes from Burn being the CB at LB. I know you said you don't think he should play there, but I can't can't even see why Howe would consider that even comparable to Man C and Arsenal. Our version would have been Schar at RB or Botman at LB. 

 

The players those 2 teams are playing there are great ball players that happen to be tall CBs, rather than being tall 1st (if that makes sense). 

 

Those 2 have gone that way in recent years, and its worked great for Man C overall and nearly as well for Arsenal in the league, and I fully understand the positives behind it, but it's not a setup that suits us positively in my mind. We look miles better with the ball playing full backs. By the time we get to a point where having the right personnel for that set up, football will have likely moved on again. 

[The College Dropout]

1 hour ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

Guess that means you are super confident that he would have performed well if brought in earlier. It did seem odd—all sorts of theories about not tripping a minimum number of appearances clause were doing the rounds—but maybe it is just about trusting the judgement of the experts. The experts who sees him in training and who can gauge when he is ready and when,  perhaps despite obvious potential, he is not. Certainly looks ready now which is the most important thing. 

He's not in the team because the experts have judged that he's ready. He's in the team because there are no other options. He looks ready now - despite the experts not thinking he's ready.

 

This is my issue with some people. They act like everything is part of a master plan. If not for injury crisis Hall would be sitting on the bench getting few minutes.,

[Toon1892]

2 minutes ago, M1tche said:

The mental take part comes from Burn being the CB at LB. I know you said you don't think he should play there, but I can't can't even see why Howe would consider that even comparable to Man C and Arsenal. Our version would have been Schar at RB or Botman at LB. 

 

The players those 2 teams are playing there are great ball players that happen to be tall CBs, rather than being tall 1st (if that makes sense). 

 

Those 2 have gone that way in recent years, and its worked great for Man C overall and nearly as well for Arsenal in the league, and I fully understand the positives behind it, but it's not a setup that suits us positively in my mind. We look miles better with the ball playing full backs. By the time we get to a point where having the right personnel for that set up, football will have likely moved on again. 

Did you miss the entire 2022/23 season? Just explaining why Howe persisted with it. Not saying it should be done going forward.

 

Many of those ‘Burn mistakes’ were due to Botman being in horrific form/ injured. If Botman was back to his original form many wouldn’t have happened.

[PRL]

Slightly baffled that the whole argument is based on height. According to an admittedly cursory search of google, White is only 3cm (1 inch) taller than Livramento and Zinchenko is smaller than Hall. No mention of Liverpool who have very small full backs and seem to do okay. 
 

its entirely dependent on style of play. I’d say the more metronomic football played by City and Arsenal fits well with what you’re saying, while the more dynamic and full throttle attacking suits rapid full backs more. 
 

I would also note Hall looks pretty strong in the air. It’s not just height that helps set pieces or Dan Burn would score double figures every season. Its strength, power, jump and technique. To argue that we just need a team of monsters seems pretty one dimensional. 

[M1tche]

10 minutes ago, Toon1892 said:

Did you miss the entire 2022/23 season? Just explaining why Howe persisted with it. Not saying it should be done going forward.

 

Many of those ‘Burn mistakes’ were due to Botman being in horrific form/ injured. If Botman was back to his original form many wouldn’t have happened.

Did miss any of it, and you rightly say it worked because Botman was unreal, that's correct. Also, that's means that the cracks were being papered over by someone doing extra work, which isn't the case for other teams that play that way, and it shouldn't be for us. A defensive full back shouldn't need that level of cover.