AC Milan 0-0 Newcastle United (19/09/23)

[Pata]

 

1 minute ago, Gallowgate Toon said:

Although, I'd add that our performance at Brighton this year was honestly quite a bit better than last season. Not good and it felt horrific at the time post-Liverpool but we largely kept them to shots from distance and had 3 good chances ourselves not including the consolation goal. Last season, we were absolutely schooled by them on all fronts - relentless attacks, barely had a shot, less possession etc.

 

Yeah, the positive thing during this stretch has been that we've been doing a decent job in keeping teams away from big chances and the conceded xG has been mostly due to the sheer volume of speculative shots that we've faced. Brighton's xG wouldn't have been that impressive if that one rebound to Ferguson didn't happen and it honestly shouldn't have happened. It's still a problem but would be fixed automatically if/when our own possession play improves. 

[timeEd32]

The xG of Arsenal-PSV was very similar to our game. Arsenal were ruthless, Milan were anything but (and Pope was good).

 

But the betting odds implied an over 50% likelihood of Milan winning. They had scored in the first four games they played this season. I think the 5-1 clouded some perceptions.

 

I think some are being too kind about how we did, while others are downplaying the difficulty of that game especially when you add in the fact it was our first CL game.

[Gallowgate Toon]

2 minutes ago, Pata said:

 

 

Yeah, the positive thing during this stretch has been that we've been doing a decent job in keeping teams away from big chances and the conceded xG has been mostly due to the sheer volume of speculative shots that we've faced. Brighton's xG wouldn't have been that impressive if that one rebound to Ferguson didn't happen and it honestly shouldn't have happened. It's still a problem but would be fixed automatically if/when our own possession play improves. 

Always enjoy the positivity of the StatsBomb guy when we're not firing. We're still in a solid place, despite some obvious issues showing in a tough run, thanks to the good principles that Howe has laid down.

 

 

Howe says he tries to win every game which is obviously true but I feel like the buys we've made this summer have more been made to help us beat 'lesser' sides more consistently rather than try to solve our weaknesses against the better teams where our lack of particular individual qualities can be exposed if the systems are being outdone. It does feel like that's a good natural progression for us from last season too where we drew a lot with teams we probably shouldn't have while still masterminding some points when up against the big 6 (especially at home).

 

- Barnes feels like a flat track bully of a winger who will bag goals & assists consistently against bottom & midtable sides.

- Tonali was definitely bought as a Longstaff upgrade, imo - as good as he was at lots of parts of the game last season, he didn't have much attacking output in the league despite being pretty heavily involved in some of our attacking patterns & on the end of good chances. Tonali was more assister than scorer last season but bagged a decent amount in 21/22 so it's something he's got in his locker.

- Hall is the complete opposite of Burn with main strengths going forward - he put several on a plate for Chelsea players last season only for every single one to be missed. It feels like that's an option for games where we think we're going to be on the front foot trying to wear sides down.

[The Prophet]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how extreme it may be, but the more extreme it is the more likely there are to be opposing views.

 

There's a lot of straw men flying about though. I don't think many fans would argue we've not been at our best this season. It's more nonsense such as suggestions Howe could be under pressure, we should have cashed in on Bruno over the summer, Tonali can't play with Bruno, Isak isn't the right striker for our system, etc. There's been a tendency in these sweeping statements to overdo the negatives and ignore any positives or any mitigating circumstances.

 

As for the "if our performances don't improve against the inferior opposition, our results might not improve". Not really cutting insight is it? If I don't look when I walk into the road I might get hit by traffic.

[Pata]

2 minutes ago, timeEd32 said:

But the betting odds implied an over 50% likelihood of Milan winning.

No, we were slight favourites until the lineups came out. Then it drifted to about 36%-30%-34% when you take away the bookie’s commission.

[christ]

Just FYI betting odds is only marginally above xG in daft stats only absolute weirdos with zero life give a toss about.

[Pata]

23 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

As for the "if our performances don't improve against the inferior opposition, our results might not improve". Not really cutting insight is it? If I don't look when I walk into the road I might get hit by traffic.

Yet I got challenged by one dafty for saying this? Level of opposition doesn’t really matter either. If you take away our penalty that was gifted by Brentford’s keeper and partially by the referee the xG would have been pretty much dead even at ~0.7 vs ~0.6.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Pata

[Pata]

3 minutes ago, christ said:

Just FYI betting odds is only marginally above xG in daft stats only absolute weirdos with zero life give a toss about.

This is just weapons-grade horse shit on every level and makes you look like a complete fool.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I like stats but we would've been very unlucky if Milan had scored 3. 

[christ]

Just now, Pata said:

This is just weapons-grade horse shit on every level and makes you look like a complete fool.

No it doesn’t. It’s the behaviour of a wrong’un. Pack it in.

[timeEd32]

5 minutes ago, Pata said:

No, we were slight favourites until the lineups came out. Then it drifted to about 36%-30%-34% when you take away the bookie’s commission.

 

Not what I saw ahead of time nor what I'm seeing looking at articles about it, though Milan's odds do vary a decent amount.

[Gallowgate Toon]

I'd take quite a few of Milan's players in our starting lineup, like  They're clearly a good side with some players in there that helped them win Serie A only 2 years ago and go deep in the CL.

[Pata]

6 minutes ago, christ said:

No it doesn’t. It’s the behaviour of a wrong’un. Pack it in.

 

[Big Geordie]

With regards to people whining - it's always been a part of football and Newcastle (like other clubs) has a 'boo-boys' element, who love giving it to one player or another. The internet has amplified this and then of course, we've got the new 'fans' who have signed on since Ashley sold the club.

 

For me - I don't go to games anymore, but still watch on TV. I'll ignore the bedwetters and the malcontents - they can all get to fuck.

[Pata]

[timeEd32]

4 minutes ago, Gallowgate Toon said:

I'd take quite a few of Milan's players in our starting lineup, like  They're clearly a good side with some players in there that helped them win Serie A only 2 years ago and go deep in the CL.

 

Before we played them they had won 12 of 13 as the home team at the San Siro (the only loss since January being the CL semi v. Inter). They only lost twice in Serie A last season at home, one of them to Napoli. They beat Spurs and Napoli at home in the CL knockouts. They were missing Tomori for the 5-1 to Inter at the weekend, who also seems to be a problem for them generally given the fact they've lost five times to them this calendar year (ouch).

 

We probably should have lost on Tuesday, but I'm not having this idea that they aren't anything special. It's not the 1990s or mid-2000's Milan, but they are a very good side at home.

[nufc123]

56 minutes ago, timeEd32 said:

 

Before we played them they had won 12 of 13 as the home team at the San Siro (the only loss since January being the CL semi v. Inter). They only lost twice in Serie A last season at home, one of them to Napoli. They beat Spurs and Napoli at home in the CL knockouts. They were missing Tomori for the 5-1 to Inter at the weekend, who also seems to be a problem for them generally given the fact they've lost five times to them this calendar year (ouch).

 

We probably should have lost on Tuesday, but I'm not having this idea that they aren't anything special. It's not the 1990s or mid-2000's Milan, but they are a very good side at home.

And we lost only three times away last season. Two of them against City and Liverpool. Some are going on like we were massive underdogs at the San Siro but the odds before the game put us quite even.

[The College Dropout]

AC Milan are good. They finished 1st, then 4th/5th in Serie A last season.

 

We are meant to be good too though.

 

They spent Barnes money on Pulisic and Chukwueze. Salaries will be considerably higher but I wonder what opinion we'll have on that in a couple years.

[KaKa]

33 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

AC Milan are good. They finished 1st, then 4th/5th in Serie A last season.

 

We are meant to be good too though.

 

They spent Barnes money on Pulisic and Chukwueze. Salaries will be considerably higher but I wonder what opinion we'll have on that in a couple years.

 

So, I have a question.

 

If you're not a fan of the manager's style of play or preferred type of signings, and you're sceptical of his tactical ability, do you think you can still enjoy following the team?

 

It appears this is something you are struggling with along with a number of others, and so the frustration manifests as this constant dissatisfaction when everything isn't clicking.

 

From previous discussions you seem to prefer a more possession heavy, technical style of football. However no one can ever guarantee the club they follow will have their preferred type of manager, style of play or signings.

 

And so not sure what the solution is for you. Interested to know what you'd ideally like to see happen.

[TBG]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

They spent Barnes money on Pulisic and Chukwueze. Salaries will be considerably higher but I wonder what opinion we'll have on that in a couple years.

 

Given they weren't players we had genuine interest in, none.

 

[The College Dropout]

30 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

So, I have a question.

 

If you're not a fan of the manager's style of play or preferred type of signings, and you're sceptical of his tactical ability, do you think you can still enjoy following the team?

 

It appears this is something you are struggling with along with a number of others, and so the frustration manifests as this constant dissatisfaction when everything isn't clicking.

 

From previous discussions you seem to prefer a more possession heavy, technical style of football. However no one can ever guarantee the club they follow will have their preferred type of manager, style of play or signings.

 

And so not sure what the solution is for you. Interested to know what you'd ideally like to see happen.

You've made many assumptions here Kaka, none of which are true. But to the actual question, I enjoy following the team tremendously, which is why I have 23k posts over 18 years, almost exclusively talking about the football team. Since the takeover my fandom has been re-energised and I can't talk enough about Newcastle United. I enjoy caring. I enjoy having a manager and team worth following and dissecting every nook and cranny with a bunch of strangers who mostly don't want to hear my opinion. But I share it anyway because I love it. When Rafa was sacked, and i didn't care, I barely posted. I rarely posted during the Bruce era - who the fuck cares? 

 

I'm not frustrated at all. Ultimately, we got a point and have a talented squad and manager and the richest owners in the world implementing a proper setup for the club. My critique is analytical, not emotional. I don't get crazy high or low about football.

 

To answer what I think is your last question. Because of FFP we'll need to compensate for not spending as much as other top 6 clubs somehow. Being smarter in the transfer market both buying and selling - aye. But we also need it on the pitch. I think having the hardest running and working a good team is a viable approach. And under Howe, I think that can be done. And he has my support. But I think Howe needs to be a bit more tactically sharp and adapt faster to teams clocking our game. He also needs to evolve our game plan and find a way to play more of our most talented players together. At the moment, we don't have those hard-working and technically superior players in attacking positions like Liverpool does in Diaz, Szob, Jota, Salah, Mane so we need to find a way to get that quality of player into the squad but that's not just down to Howe. But I'm not frustrated. I think Howe will get the chance to prove himself.  I'm enjoying getting to know Howe as a manager. I'd like to see him solve the midblock out-of-possession issues in the half-spaces. I'd like to see our strikers less isolated and playing closer to the wingers. I'd like to see a functional midfield. 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by The College Dropout

[KaKa]

7 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

You've made many assumptions here Kaka, none of which are true. But to the actual question, I enjoy following the team tremendously, which is why I have 23k posts over 18 years, almost exclusively talking about the football team. Since the takeover my fandom has been re-energised and I can't talk enough about Newcastle United. I enjoy caring. I enjoy having a manager and team worth following and dissecting every nook and cranny with a bunch of strangers who mostly don't want to hear my opinion. But I share it anyway because I love it. When Rafa was sacked, and i didn't care, I barely posted. I rarely posted during the Bruce era - who the fuck cares? 

 

I'm not frustrated at all. Ultimately, we got a point and have a talented squad and manager and the richest owners in the world implementing a proper setup for the club. My critique is analytical, not emotional. I don't get crazy high or low about football.

 

To answer what I think is your last question. Because of FFP we'll need to compensate for not spending as much as other top 6 clubs somehow. Being smarter in the transfer market both buying and selling - aye. But we also need it on the pitch. I think having the hardest running and working good team is a viable approach to doing so. And under Howe, I think that can be done. And he has my support. But I think Howe needs to be a bit more tactically sharp and adapt faster to teams clocking our game. He also needs to evolve our game plan and find a way to play more of our most talented players together. At the moment, we don't have those hard-working and technically superior players in attacking positions like Liverpool does in Diaz, Szob, Jota, Salah, Mane so we need to find a way to get that quality of player into the squad but that's not just down to Howe. But I'm not frustrated. I think Howe will get the chance to prove himself. 

 

So I wasn't actually questioning your support. I was asking if you actually enjoy following the club if the manager, style and players aren't your preference. Seems from what you've said you still do, so fair enough. I do think there are a fair few that don't enjoy it at the minute because they want some version of the Chelsea or City type approach to bringing players in and a bigger name continental manager.

 

I think a lot of the time your posts do tend to read as though your mind is made up already on both the manager and a lot of the signings and you don't rate them, and so was interested to see what your thinking was exactly.

 

Ultimately from my perspective, we have ownership that actually want to compete and a good infrastructure behind the manager. Howe will have an opportunity to show what he can do and also make up for anything he hasn't quite got right so far. If he doesn't continue to evolve and show he's up to it, then ultimately someone else will come in. Same thing with the players also. And so it's why I'm not quite sure why people are worrying so much about everything.

[Pata]

4 minutes ago, KaKa said:

I do think there are a fair few that don't enjoy it at the minute because they want some version of the Chelsea or City type approach to bringing players in and a bigger name continental manager.

I’m not sure if you are talking about N-O or some social media people but I think the people thinking like this in here are at most couple of posters and you saying that seems a bit hyperbolic. 

[The College Dropout]

6 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

So I wasn't actually questioning your support. I was asking if you actually enjoy following the club if the manager, style and players aren't your preference. Seems from what you've said you still do, so fair enough. I do think there are a fair few that don't enjoy it at the minute because they want some version of the Chelsea or City type approach to bringing players in and a bigger name continental manager.

 

I think a lot of the time your posts do tend to read as though your mind is made up already on both the manager and a lot of the signings and you don't rate them, and so was interested to see what your thinking was exactly.

 

Ultimately from my perspective, we have ownership that actually want to compete and a good infrastructure behind the manager. Howe will have an opportunity to show what he can do and also make up for anything he hasn't quite got right so far. If he doesn't continue to evolve and show he's up to it, then ultimately someone else will come in. Same thing with the players also. And so it's why I'm not quite sure why people are worrying so much about everything.

My personal opinion: that's your perspective of others because you don't enjoy people critiquing what happens. I haven't seen anyone say they are unhappy with the club's direction. I have seen people say we played badly; some call certain players shit... but nobody is not enjoying the club from what I can tell. Name a poster who has said they do not enjoy it if you can.

 

All of our players are talented. And our manager has ability. The signing I've been most critical of is probably Gordon. But I've said he's been our best winger this season, he has a lot of positive attributes, and he's well suited to the manager's style. I question his quality but he can improve. I've said Barnes is a net positive after selling ASM. Neither are my type of player but I can see why they are here and I think they can contribute to our success. I think both have limitations which I'll discuss on this forum. I like the other signings a lot. I like Tonali but there's a lot for him and Howe to work on to get him right. I don't see things in black and white. 

 

I agree with you on your last point. But I enjoy talking about the details of what's happening. I want Howe and the boys to succeed. So I'll worry when we don't play well for 4 straight games. It's not the end of the world but I will share my concerns. I enjoy talking about what details are working well and I enjoy talking about what details aren't working well.

 

I seen a podcast a while back. There was talk about how Spanish footballers, pundits, fans etc. talk about the game. They talk about the details, the concepts, the ideas. They conceptualise the game. In England we just talk about the result. If you talk about the game conceptually people will mock you for highfalutin or pretentiousness. "Football's a simple game" a pundit will say whose management career ended by 55. And it trickles to the fans. "Why are you talking about the opposition getting into a halfspace? Just enjoy the game!!!!" not realising that some of us enjoy analysing the game. Critique is seen as dissent.

[The College Dropout]

Random example: I've said Milan bought 2 wingers for the same money we bought one. I think it's an interesting question to return to in the future about which transfer approach was better. Just as an idea. It wasn't a question with bias in fact - I didn't want 1 of the players because he's a crock and the other I'd never seen properly until Tues. But because it sounds like it might have a hint of criticism (and it wasn't) the only reply was defensive and arsey. All I've done is ask you to think about our approach and reply but it sounded like dissent to the dude.