AC Milan 0-0 Newcastle United (19/09/23)

[Dandy Man]

I'm generally of the sunshine and rainbows/glass half full mentality - I don't really "expect" us to achieve anything and I'm happy to enjoy the ride come what may but something has looked amiss (to me) in our recent performances, I'm not reading anything into as there's a whole shedload of extenuating circumstances but a lot of the things that made us such a hard team to beat last season have not really been there this season (yet), no point obsessing about it but no point pretending it is not the case either

[Smal]

12 minutes ago, Nobody said:

That's very harsh. It wasn't as good as we are used to under Howe, but we weren't really poor at all. Plenty of players had a really good game, we just played against a better team away. 

 

I don't think it's harsh tbh. We created absolutely nothing other than the Longstaff effort at the end and we conceded almost 3xG which is a lot. I don't think Milan are that much better than us man for man on paper. They're not Man City, Arsenal, Bayern tier, are they. 

 

There were some good individual performances but as a team we were really poor and disjointed. I don't think that's an unfair assessment. We all know how well we can play. We saw it 80%+ of the time last season. That was nowhere near.

 

It's forgivable given the context of the game of course, and I don't really care that we were bad because I got to see Jacob Murphy, Sean Longstaff and Dan Burn playing for Newcastle in the CL at the San Siro . In the future we'll have a bunch of mercenaries and it won't mean anywhere near as much as it did to those guys.  

[Pata]

19 minutes ago, Shadow Puppets said:

People expecting us to go to the San Siro and impose our game effectively, not taking into account that Milan are very good (like it or not, much better than us) with tonnes of experience of these types of games, the San Siro is a fucking monstrous atmosphere, the heat etc. These are all factors in why we played the way we did in those 25 minutes in the first half.

 

The experience Milan have of these games is a fair point but the odds pre-match were pretty much even and we had shorter odds than them to go through from this group which implies the money in the world thinks we are better than them. Hope we are not as nervous in the following group stage matches when the players have made their CL debut now.

 

21 minutes ago, christ said:

People are no longer going to be satisfied with a perfunctory 1-0 win over a team like Brentford. I’m not saying whether that’s right or wrong, but it is going to lead to some incredibly fucking tedious arguments on here. The price of success.

 

I just like to look beyond the result and at the actual performance. 3 points against Brentford and an away point at Milan are great results in a vacuum but if we continue to perform like in those matches it will get harder and harder to replicate those results. 

[Pata]

12 minutes ago, Smal said:

 

I don't think it's harsh tbh. We created absolutely nothing other than the Longstaff effort at the end and we conceded almost 3xG which is a lot. I don't think Milan are that much better than us man for man on paper. They're not Man City, Arsenal, Bayern tier, are they. 

 

There were some good individual performances but as a team we were really poor and disjointed. I don't think that's an unfair assessment. We all know how well we can play. We saw it 80%+ of the time last season. That was nowhere near.

 

It's forgivable given the context of the game of course, and I don't really care that we were bad because I got to see Jacob Murphy, Sean Longstaff and Dan Burn playing for Newcastle in the CL at the San Siro . In the future we'll have a bunch of mercenaries and it won't mean anywhere near as much as it did to those guys.  

 

These are exactly my thoughts, great post!

[Sean]

17 minutes ago, Dandy Man said:

I'm generally of the sunshine and rainbows/glass half full mentality - I don't really "expect" us to achieve anything and I'm happy to enjoy the ride come what may but something has looked amiss (to me) in our recent performances, I'm not reading anything into as there's a whole shedload of extenuating circumstances but a lot of the things that made us such a hard team to beat last season have not really been there this season (yet), no point obsessing about it but no point pretending it is not the case either

This is the wrong place for the voice of reason I feel 

[TBG]

1 hour ago, Pata said:

 

Are we really not allowed to say we played poorly anymore?

 

 

Not at all.

 

I agree that, Villa aside, we've been pretty poor as a whole and certainly nowhere near last season, but some of the hyperbole following those games has been nothing but a joke.

 

Folk were happy to shout from the roof how difficult of a start we had/have. How difficult of a Champs League group we have. 

 

Folk will spend the entire week building up the opposition and how difficult of game it will be, only to complain when what they've built up to happen, happens. 

 

There seems to be no in-between for some people when it comes to the team and players.

 

A win and we're winning the league and Murphy is lifting the Ballon d'Or

 

Get beat and we're shit and Murphy should be the first out the door. 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by TBG

[KaKa]

35 minutes ago, christ said:

 

People are no longer going to be satisfied with a perfunctory 1-0 win over a team like Brentford.

 

Someone legit said in the match thread that losing to Brentford at home would be 'unacceptable'.

 

Not Luton mind you, Brentford.

 

The Brentford that beat Man City both home and away last season.

[Pata]

Just now, AyeDubbleYoo said:

'Really poor' is massively over the top like, as much as everyone is entitled to whatever adjectives they want. It also totally ignores the context. 

 

Disagree and I'm not really sure what context I'm missing here.

 

We conceded almost 3 xG and had one shot on target in the 94th minute in a match that was supposed to be a coin-flip beforehand. Milan are a good team but they wouldn't be CL regulars if they played in PL and we just bought their talisman midfielder in the summer. They missed the CL spots in a weakish Serie A for seven seasons in a row between 13/14 and 19/20. They have been improving since but believe many think they are stronger than they really are due to their fabled history.

[christ]

9 minutes ago, Pata said:

 

 

I just like to look beyond the result and at the actual performance. 3 points against Brentford and an away point at Milan are great results in a vacuum but if we continue to perform like in those matches it will get harder and harder to replicate those results. 

Who says we’re going to continue to perform like that though? We know the level this team is capable of playing at. Seems weird to me to get wound up about a hypothetical situation where we might continue to play shit.

[Sean]

Watching the game back reaffirms what I saw the other night.

 

First 10/15 minutes we were really good, excellent even. Gordon/Tonali testing their full backs, we looked composed in possession, Schar spraying cross field balls to the wing.

 

Then Dan Burn inexplicably leaves a pass, leaving Botman having to make a last ditch take or else they are in. Our heads then went for the next 10 minutes or so and they should have scored. We never really recovered our confidence and composure on the ball after that moment.

 

So needlessly self inflicted it is frustrating as hell.

 

Can't wait to see Lewis Hall get some proper gametime.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Sean

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, TBG said:

 

Not at all.

 

I agree that, Villa aside, we've been pretty poor as a whole and certainly nowhere near last season, but some of the hyperbole following those games has been nothing but a joke.

 

Folk were happy to shout from the roof how difficult of a start we had/have. How difficult of a Champs League group we have. 

 

Folk will spend the entire week building up the opposition and how difficult of game it will be, only to complain when what they've built up to happen, happens. 

 

There seems to be no in-between for some people when it comes to the team and players.

 

A win and we're winning the league and Murphy is lifting the Ballon d'Or

 

Get beat and we're shit and Murphy should be the first out the door. 

 

 

 

I actually think Murphy did better than Gordon v Milan. He's more direct and will at least have a pop at goal

[Abacus]

12 minutes ago, Pata said:

 

The experience Milan have of these games is a fair point but the odds pre-match were pretty much even and we had shorter odds than them to go through from this group which implies the money in the world thinks we are better than them. Hope we are not as nervous in the following group stage matches when the players have made their CL debut now.

 

A fair point, though obviously the odds aren't always the best guide. I still expect it to be a different game at SJP, and therefore going only by the result, I'd still say we have a slight advantage.

 

We may have lost that on another day, but what I liked was the defensive battling determination in the second half - growing into that game will be a lesson learnt and is a real positive to take.

 

But I'm not denying our attacking side hasn't quite clicked yet. We seem to have a number of players I can't quite see where their natural role is (Tonali, Gordon, Isak, Anderson) - but that worked out pretty well for Joelinton (when fit) in the past.

 

That's a bit of a puzzle for Howe to figure out, though I can't help think that a lot of the pieces are there and when it does we'll be a real danger to most teams.

[Pata]

4 minutes ago, christ said:

Who says we’re going to continue to perform like that though? We know the level this team is capable of playing at. Seems weird to me to get wound up about a hypothetical situation where we might continue to play shit.

 

I really don't follow your logic here to be perfectly honest. Our trend isn't exactly good right now and that worries me a bit. If you play poorly for a few games in a row it's more likely that we keep playing poorly in the future too. Same thing works when we are playing well.

[The College Dropout]

3 minutes ago, Pata said:

 

Disagree and I'm not really sure what context I'm missing here.

 

We conceded almost 3 xG and had one shot on target in the 94th minute in a match that was supposed to be a coin-flip beforehand. Milan are a good team but they wouldn't be CL regulars if they played in PL and we just bought their talisman midfielder in the summer. They missed the CL spots in a weakish Serie A for seven seasons in a row between 13/14 and 19/20. They have been improving since but believe many think they are stronger than they really are due to their fabled history.

Only made CL because Juve got points docked.

 

They are a good CL-quality team, no doubt. But we should have given them a better game, and they will be kicking themselves that they didn't win.

 

18 minutes ago, Pata said:

 

The experience Milan have of these games is a fair point but the odds pre-match were pretty much even and we had shorter odds than them to go through from this group which implies the money in the world thinks we are better than them. Hope we are not as nervous in the following group stage matches when the players have made their CL debut now.

 

 

I just like to look beyond the result and at the actual performance. 3 points against Brentford and an away point at Milan are great results in a vacuum but if we continue to perform like in those matches it will get harder and harder to replicate those results. 

Aye and you have to look at the pattern of performances. Look at the Villa game last season. Most people saw that even though that game exposed some structural issues. We played well before that fixture to get enough points to finish 4th. That performance is a one-off. As a team, we've not performed well since GW1. Not the results but the actual performances. 

 

 

I'm hoping these two positive results will create confidence that will turn into good performances.

[The College Dropout]

Think Milan are suited to play on the counter. They wanted us to come on to them. 

[Gallowgate Toon]

6 minutes ago, Sean said:

Watching the game back reaffirms what I saw the other night.

 

First 10/15 minutes we were really good, excellent even. Gordon/Tonali testing their full backs, we looked composed in possession, Schar spraying cross field balls to the wing.

 

Then Dan Burn inexplicably leaves a pass, leaving Botman having to make a last ditch take or else they are in. Our heads then went for the next 10 minutes or so and they should have scored. We never really recovered our confidence and composure on the ball after that moment.

 

So needlessly self inflicted it is frustrating as hell.

 

Can't wait to see Lewis Hall get some proper gametime.

 

 

 

Quite similar to Brighton in a way. Really sharp start, missed some opportunities and then heads seem to drop a bit once they get their foot on it and controlled the tempo. We do seem to have abandoned the switch in a couple of games after it's worked a few times which is a bit strange as Gordon looks a proper handful when he's 1v1.

 

Although, I'd add that our performance at Brighton this year was honestly quite a bit better than last season. Not good and it felt horrific at the time post-Liverpool but we largely kept them to shots from distance and had 3 good chances ourselves not including the consolation goal. Last season, we were absolutely schooled by them on all fronts - relentless attacks, barely had a shot, less possession etc.

[Pata]

 

1 minute ago, Gallowgate Toon said:

Although, I'd add that our performance at Brighton this year was honestly quite a bit better than last season. Not good and it felt horrific at the time post-Liverpool but we largely kept them to shots from distance and had 3 good chances ourselves not including the consolation goal. Last season, we were absolutely schooled by them on all fronts - relentless attacks, barely had a shot, less possession etc.

 

Yeah, the positive thing during this stretch has been that we've been doing a decent job in keeping teams away from big chances and the conceded xG has been mostly due to the sheer volume of speculative shots that we've faced. Brighton's xG wouldn't have been that impressive if that one rebound to Ferguson didn't happen and it honestly shouldn't have happened. It's still a problem but would be fixed automatically if/when our own possession play improves. 

[timeEd32]

The xG of Arsenal-PSV was very similar to our game. Arsenal were ruthless, Milan were anything but (and Pope was good).

 

But the betting odds implied an over 50% likelihood of Milan winning. They had scored in the first four games they played this season. I think the 5-1 clouded some perceptions.

 

I think some are being too kind about how we did, while others are downplaying the difficulty of that game especially when you add in the fact it was our first CL game.

[Gallowgate Toon]

2 minutes ago, Pata said:

 

 

Yeah, the positive thing during this stretch has been that we've been doing a decent job in keeping teams away from big chances and the conceded xG has been mostly due to the sheer volume of speculative shots that we've faced. Brighton's xG wouldn't have been that impressive if that one rebound to Ferguson didn't happen and it honestly shouldn't have happened. It's still a problem but would be fixed automatically if/when our own possession play improves. 

Always enjoy the positivity of the StatsBomb guy when we're not firing. We're still in a solid place, despite some obvious issues showing in a tough run, thanks to the good principles that Howe has laid down.

 

 

Howe says he tries to win every game which is obviously true but I feel like the buys we've made this summer have more been made to help us beat 'lesser' sides more consistently rather than try to solve our weaknesses against the better teams where our lack of particular individual qualities can be exposed if the systems are being outdone. It does feel like that's a good natural progression for us from last season too where we drew a lot with teams we probably shouldn't have while still masterminding some points when up against the big 6 (especially at home).

 

- Barnes feels like a flat track bully of a winger who will bag goals & assists consistently against bottom & midtable sides.

- Tonali was definitely bought as a Longstaff upgrade, imo - as good as he was at lots of parts of the game last season, he didn't have much attacking output in the league despite being pretty heavily involved in some of our attacking patterns & on the end of good chances. Tonali was more assister than scorer last season but bagged a decent amount in 21/22 so it's something he's got in his locker.

- Hall is the complete opposite of Burn with main strengths going forward - he put several on a plate for Chelsea players last season only for every single one to be missed. It feels like that's an option for games where we think we're going to be on the front foot trying to wear sides down.

[The Prophet]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how extreme it may be, but the more extreme it is the more likely there are to be opposing views.

 

There's a lot of straw men flying about though. I don't think many fans would argue we've not been at our best this season. It's more nonsense such as suggestions Howe could be under pressure, we should have cashed in on Bruno over the summer, Tonali can't play with Bruno, Isak isn't the right striker for our system, etc. There's been a tendency in these sweeping statements to overdo the negatives and ignore any positives or any mitigating circumstances.

 

As for the "if our performances don't improve against the inferior opposition, our results might not improve". Not really cutting insight is it? If I don't look when I walk into the road I might get hit by traffic.

[Pata]

2 minutes ago, timeEd32 said:

But the betting odds implied an over 50% likelihood of Milan winning.

No, we were slight favourites until the lineups came out. Then it drifted to about 36%-30%-34% when you take away the bookie’s commission.

[christ]

Just FYI betting odds is only marginally above xG in daft stats only absolute weirdos with zero life give a toss about.

[Pata]

23 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

As for the "if our performances don't improve against the inferior opposition, our results might not improve". Not really cutting insight is it? If I don't look when I walk into the road I might get hit by traffic.

Yet I got challenged by one dafty for saying this? Level of opposition doesn’t really matter either. If you take away our penalty that was gifted by Brentford’s keeper and partially by the referee the xG would have been pretty much dead even at ~0.7 vs ~0.6.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Pata

[Pata]

3 minutes ago, christ said:

Just FYI betting odds is only marginally above xG in daft stats only absolute weirdos with zero life give a toss about.

This is just weapons-grade horse shit on every level and makes you look like a complete fool.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I like stats but we would've been very unlucky if Milan had scored 3.