Sandrotastico Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 1 minute ago, Yorkie said: I don't want to put numbers on it but for a start I'd expect him to deliver more assists in the event we sign a better striker (or Wissa dramatically improves to the extent he's capable of being first choice). More goals too. I just believe that the talent is there; we've only seen glimpses but he has the capacity to frighten defenders, no doubt about it for me. All sass aside, that's why I think - at some point - you've just got to forget about the fee or at least don't view every action he does through the lens of the fact we've overspent. He's on a hiding to nothing in that case because we can probably all agree he isn't gonna justify the price tag. But he can still be good for us. His touch frightens most fans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minhosa Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 7 minutes ago, Yorkie said: I don't want to put numbers on it but for a start I'd expect him to deliver more assists in the event we sign a better striker (or Wissa dramatically improves to the extent he's capable of being first choice). More goals too. I just believe that the talent is there; we've only seen glimpses but he has the capacity to frighten defenders, no doubt about it for me. All sass aside, that's why I think - at some point - you've just got to forget about the fee or at least don't view every action he does through the lens of the fact we've overspent. He's on a hiding to nothing in that case because we can probably all agree he isn't gonna justify the price tag. But he can still be good for us. We can’t just forget about the fee man. You continuously appeal for people to overlook the fee but that is just not how things work. He will ALWAYS be judged against the fee. People still talk about Schars fee 100 years after we signed him and he’s judged accordingly. Do you think he’d be held in such high esteem if we’d signed him for £80m? The fee is where expectations are set. It’s where you look at the market and compare him against his peers, signed for similar prices….. The price you pay for anything is the bar upon which you judge value. You simply cannot just say ‘let’s overlook the fee because he’ll probably never justify it’ man . What about would you need to see next season from him for you to be happy? What does good look like for a £55m winger, stats wise? We can all agree 25 PL games and one assist is bad. So, tell me, what’s good? What’s, bare minimum, acceptable in your view? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 11 minutes ago, Minhosa said: We can’t just forget about the fee man. You continuously appeal for people to overlook the fee but that is just not how things work. He will ALWAYS be judged against the fee. People still talk about Schars fee 100 years after we signed him and he’s judged accordingly. Do you think he’d be held in such high esteem if we’d signed him for £80m? The fee is where expectations are set. It’s where you look at the market and compare him against his peers, signed for similar prices….. The price you pay for anything is the bar upon which you judge value. You simply cannot just say ‘let’s overlook the fee because he’ll probably never justify it’ man . What about would you need to see next season from him for you to be happy? What does good look like for a £55m winger, stats wise? We can all agree 25 PL games and one assist is bad. So, tell me, what’s good? What’s, bare minimum, acceptable in your view? Well like I said I don't want to put a number on it because there's more ways to measure output than basic stats, though clearly more goals and more assists is required. 'Acceptable' is regularly making a positive contribution to the team. He hasn't done that enough this season; you're probably counting on one - maybe two - hands the rules he's done that this season, which clearly isn't anywhere near enough for a first-teamer. I don't think I've continuously appealed for people to overlook the fee, unless I've forgotten. This discussion has existed over the last couple of days. He'll always judged against the fee - aye fair enough I guess. What I'm saying more than anything is that he's getting more pelters than he's actually due, on the basis of the fee, so maybe it needs putting to one side in the interests of being objective about his performances, and in the interests of being supportive of the players rather than calling them useless cunts when they're probably not really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minhosa Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 10 minutes ago, Yorkie said: Well like I said I don't want to put a number on it because there's more ways to measure output than basic stats, though clearly more goals and more assists is required. 'Acceptable' is regularly making a positive contribution to the team. He hasn't done that enough this season; you're probably counting on one - maybe two - hands the rules he's done that this season, which clearly isn't anywhere near enough for a first-teamer. I don't think I've continuously appealed for people to overlook the fee, unless I've forgotten. This discussion has existed over the last couple of days. He'll always judged against the fee - aye fair enough I guess. What I'm saying more than anything is that he's getting more pelters than he's actually due, on the basis of the fee, so maybe it needs putting to one side in the interests of being objective about his performances, and in the interests of being supportive of the players rather than calling them useless cunts when they're probably not really. More pelters than he’s due? He’s our third highest signing of all time, he’s contributed nowt all season and the fans were still singing his name last night. He’s gotten off lightly tbh. He hasn’t shown the ability of a £5m signing to date. When he actually turns up and delivers consistently what a £55m winger should, he’ll then actually deserve the backing he’s had to date. Until then, he’ll continue to be judged by those of us on the isle of common sense and not the sunshine bus you’re driving… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 Think we'll leave it there, man. I don't really know why you can't discuss it without being a complete arse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverThere Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 But Minhosa, we won the Carabao cup man! I'm with you, he is shite and we should cut our losses. This summer is massive and I would rather we look at some prospects from Europe than the crap we bought last year and no panic buys at the last minute either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 The point was never about overlooking the fee, the point was that when he shows improvement or has a decent game it’s annoying to just say “yeah but he cost money so he’s still shite”. It’s idiotic to only judge him against the fee at all times. Of course he hasn’t been worth 55m so far, everyone knows that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 Regardless of the fee he’s not a great footballer. He doesn’t have it technically. He doesn’t have it mentally. Even if he finds a Murphy cross and shoot exploit that will not change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 (edited) 4 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said: The point was never about overlooking the fee, the point was that when he shows improvement or has a decent game it’s annoying to just say “yeah but he cost money so he’s still shite”. It’s idiotic to only judge him against the fee at all times. Of course he hasn’t been worth 55m so far, everyone knows that. The decent games = simple passes to his own players and running his man down the line and over hitting crosses. Im trying to give him grace. But lad is not it. Can’t blame fans for wanting More. It is galling we scouted him and thought he was the one. For several years too. Edited March 8 by The College Dropout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 Ah it’s pointless Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellis80 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 46 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said: The point was never about overlooking the fee, the point was that when he shows improvement or has a decent game it’s annoying to just say “yeah but he cost money so he’s still shite”. It’s idiotic to only judge him against the fee at all times. Of course he hasn’t been worth 55m so far, everyone knows that. I don’t think he’s had one decent game. There have been a few games when he’s done one thing well. Apparently he played well in midweek when he got into a position 3/4 times to cross or shoot and he made a mess of it every time. He’s improved to the level of being our worst winger but not bad enough that he can’t be used at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jemo96 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 3 hours ago, Sandrotastico said: Ruel Fox was better - sell. Plus for a bloke soo fast, I've not seen him burn one full back yet - too much time on the ropes not with a ball or learning the game. Zero IQ. He’s absolute gash. Think Ruel or Nobby, even Miggy could start for us now and still play a better game. No football brain in him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 If we're comparing him to the market. Kudus, Gittens and Madueke all went for similar amount. Only Kudus has put up numbers this season, but Spurs fans aren't enamoured with him. There was also talk of Monaco demanding daft money for Akliouche. Not at all a defence of Elanga, but the right wing market last summer was hideously overinflated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikky Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 37 minutes ago, The Prophet said: If we're comparing him to the market. Kudus, Gittens and Madueke all went for similar amount. Only Kudus has put up numbers this season, but Spurs fans aren't enamoured with him. There was also talk of Monaco demanding daft money for Akliouche. Not at all a defence of Elanga, but the right wing market last summer was hideously overinflated. Fair enough - frustrating watching Savinho last night and thinking that’s exactly the type of RW we have been crying out for Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 49 minutes ago, Mikky said: Fair enough - frustrating watching Savinho last night and thinking that’s exactly the type of RW we have been crying out for City paid £20m for Savinho but they probably scouted him and bought him a lot earlier in the cycle. When Elanga moved to Forest for £15m, that was the time to move for him, if we were ever going to. We paid peak value on someone who had already failed at a big club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 Take the transfer fee away - if we’d promoted him from the youth team and he’d produced 0 goals and 1 assists from 25 PL appearances we’d be asking what the fuck Howe was playing at, the lad isn’t good enough - perhaps we’d talk about a loan period if he was a kid, but if the player was 24 next month we’d say it’s obvious he hasn’t made it and we should be releasing him in the summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conjo Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 12 hours ago, TRon said: City paid £20m for Savinho but they probably scouted him and bought him a lot earlier in the cycle. When Elanga moved to Forest for £15m, that was the time to move for him, if we were ever going to. We paid peak value on someone who had already failed at a big club. City "bought" Savinho from a City Football Group owned club (after a fantastic season on loan to another City Football Group owned club) so the fee is just internal accounting. City Football Group bought him for ~£6m when he moved to Troyes in 2022. Anyone else buying him at the time instead of man city would have had to pay over double what he went for most likely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 10 minutes ago, Conjo said: City "bought" Savinho from a City Football Group owned club (after a fantastic season on loan to another City Football Group owned club) so the fee is just internal accounting. City Football Group bought him for ~£6m when he moved to Troyes in 2022. Anyone else buying him at the time instead of man city would have had to pay over double what he went for most likely. Savinho surely should’ve had his valuation reassessed due to it being a RPT? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 20 hours ago, The Prophet said: If we're comparing him to the market. Kudus, Gittens and Madueke all went for similar amount. Only Kudus has put up numbers this season, but Spurs fans aren't enamoured with him. There was also talk of Monaco demanding daft money for Akliouche. Not at all a defence of Elanga, but the right wing market last summer was hideously overinflated. Gittens is a LW. Estevao is a RW. It’s not about numbers. Elanga isn’t good at football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 8 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said: Take the transfer fee away - if we’d promoted him from the youth team and he’d produced 0 goals and 1 assists from 25 PL appearances we’d be asking what the fuck Howe was playing at, the lad isn’t good enough - perhaps we’d talk about a loan period if he was a kid, but if the player was 24 next month we’d say it’s obvious he hasn’t made it and we should be releasing him in the summer. What do we think the club seen in him then? Reportedly two years of scouting, no doubt would have spoke to him and his representatives on many occasions, got a feel for his personality, dedication, professionalism, lifestyle, stats reports up to the eyeballs etc etc Did every single person involved on the NUFC side get it wrong? I mean it happens, as we've seen on many occasions with other clubs, the kid who turns up just doesn't end up being the player they thought they were getting. I'm not suggesting for one minute he's been great and I get the frustration but just find this kind of 'line drawn, no redemption' stance a bit harsh sometimes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 17 minutes ago, David Kelly said: Did every single person involved on the NUFC side get it wrong? Yes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 8 hours ago, Conjo said: City "bought" Savinho from a City Football Group owned club (after a fantastic season on loan to another City Football Group owned club) so the fee is just internal accounting. City Football Group bought him for ~£6m when he moved to Troyes in 2022. Anyone else buying him at the time instead of man city would have had to pay over double what he went for most likely. This is what it takes at this level to compete then. We are miles behind. Can't afford the best players because they are out of our spending range, and can't buy the next generation because we don't have a structure like City or Chelsea. Yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 1 hour ago, TheBrownBottle said: Yes Oh well, fair enough. That's a very strong stance but if that's what you think, that's what you think and you may well end up being right. Clubs can do as much as humanly possible to mitigate risk in a transfer but sometimes for a multitude of reasons it just doesn't work out. Since he's got no chance of turning it round, what do you think we'll do with him? Persevere until we buy someone else? Sell him to Watford or some shite Ligue 1 club for £5m in two years time? What will his trajectory look like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 We made Savinho look better than he has been. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenham Mag Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 Just now, The College Dropout said: We made Savinho look better than he has been. I don't think we had anything to do with that, he was up against Hall who has been great but even he had difficulty with him. He seems to be maturing and will be a big a big problem in the premier league in coming seasons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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