Growing Pains

[1881]

It really feels that the club needs a reset in terms of realistic expectations.

 

I am  guessing that when PIF took over they really believed that, over time, we could become the next PSG or Manchester City. They probably thought that for a relatively small ongoing financial input they would get high visibility and an investment that would continue to grow in value.

 

But I can’t help thinking that have lost that belief now as the realities of the impact of all the obstacles put in our way has become more and more apparent. They will certainly want to protect their investment and will continue to provide us with the money to do so in terms of ongoing costs. But how much will they be prepared to invest in projects such as the training ground, academy and new stadium which will take years to repay themselves?

 

The way I see it is that the squad we have now is still nowhere near the level it needs to be at to sustain a challenge both domestically in Europe. Mistakes have been made, but PSR/SCR and all of the other rules put in place are designed to make it incredibly difficult if not impossible for clubs like us to do so.

 

We can argue over tactics, substitutions and the like, but changing manager is not going to solve the core issues and in the short-term will just add to the problems we face this summer.

 

Personally, for the future, I would prefer us to target a top-eight finish and the domestic cups and budget on that. If we make Europe, brilliant, but let’s not make it a necessity.

 

We will need to accept that some players will not want to join and some will leave for “bigger clubs”, but so be it. They are going to do that anyway.

 

Perhaps being a fan might be more enjoyable that way?

[Kid Icarus]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Honest question and I'll likely out myself as a mentalist when I ask this but still.

 

Pre Isak bullshit, how many of us had us as dark horses to win the league this season? I will happily raise my hand and say I was convinced we were gonna Leicester the dump this year.

Didn't have us as a dark horse, but went into the summer thinking that that was the next step we needed to attempt to make, fall well short, then go again.

[TRon]

45 minutes ago, 1881 said:

It really feels that the club needs a reset in terms of realistic expectations.

 

I am  guessing that when PIF took over they really believed that, over time, we could become the next PSG or Manchester City. They probably thought that for a relatively small ongoing financial input they would get high visibility and an investment that would continue to grow in value.

 

But I can’t help thinking that have lost that belief now as the realities of the impact of all the obstacles put in our way has become more and more apparent. They will certainly want to protect their investment and will continue to provide us with the money to do so in terms of ongoing costs. But how much will they be prepared to invest in projects such as the training ground, academy and new stadium which will take years to repay themselves?

 

The way I see it is that the squad we have now is still nowhere near the level it needs to be at to sustain a challenge both domestically in Europe. Mistakes have been made, but PSR/SCR and all of the other rules put in place are designed to make it incredibly difficult if not impossible for clubs like us to do so.

 

We can argue over tactics, substitutions and the like, but changing manager is not going to solve the core issues and in the short-term will just add to the problems we face this summer.

 

Personally, for the future, I would prefer us to target a top-eight finish and the domestic cups and budget on that. If we make Europe, brilliant, but let’s not make it a necessity.

 

We will need to accept that some players will not want to join and some will leave for “bigger clubs”, but so be it. They are going to do that anyway.

 

Perhaps being a fan might be more enjoyable that way?

 

 

I think that's reasonable. We just have to come to terms with being a selling club. That unfortunately is part of the growing pains. 

[PauloGeordio]

1 minute ago, TRon said:

 

 

I think that's reasonable. We just have to come to terms with being a selling club. That unfortunately is part of the growing pains. 

As long as the reinvestment pays I can live with that ( not Bruno though ) It’s when it goes a bit tits like last summer (although I’d like to see some players after a closed season with Eddie on the training ground).

[greydos]

These next 7 games are basically a pre-season for Eddie to start moving towards a more sustainable style with the players we have. I want to see progress in possession and an effective and clear attacking identity. 

[TRon]

3 minutes ago, greydos said:

These next 7 games are basically a pre-season for Eddie to start moving towards a more sustainable style with the players we have. I want to see progress in possession and an effective and clear attacking identity. 

 

 

Same here. 

[Andy84]

All boils down to wages, when we can start paying the money it will take us to the next Level 

[Coffee_Johnny]

2 hours ago, Andy84 said:

All boils down to wages, when we can start paying the money it will take us to the next Level 

A simple explanation for a complex issue, but I genuinely believe that if we give General Howe (sounds as ropey as Chairman…) the soldiers he, and the rest of the camp, are capable of winning any battle. 

[Miggys First Goal]

To go from relegation candidates to playing in the Champions League and winning a trophy in quick succession gave a lot of our fanbase an unrealistic idea of how the future was going to be. Was it amazing? Absolutely. Was it sustainable with the rules that were put in place? Unfortunately not. 
 

We peaked too quickly. Had we had a gradual ascent - which would have been completely acceptable especially with what we went through prior to the takeover - I think some fans would have been a little bit more lenient towards Eddie and this blip we’ve gone through this season. 
 

I also agree with what @1881 has said above. I think PIF need to reassess their lofty ambitions. Having our CEO come out and continue to plug the “best in the world by 2030” patter isn’t going to help anyone. You’re going to build up the fanbase’s expectations. The way things stand right now, with PSR or whatever term they’re using now, we’re never winning the league let alone being best in the world. If we become a team that fights for Europe and goes on successful cup runs every season, so be it. It’s better than what we had for almost two decades. 

[Miercoles]

23 hours ago, Mike said:

 I doubt many of us would have enjoyed that kind of unearned glory. 

 

I would have fucking loved it. I put my time in not winning shit, and my other teams are the Athletics, the Chargers and the Sharks, and the missus has me watching about 150 Yankees games a year so I get plenty of "being decent but always fucking up the key things" action already. I wouldn't mind a winner in the mix at all, thank you very much.

[SiLvOR]

13 hours ago, Mike said:

Honest question and I'll likely out myself as a mentalist when I ask this but still.

 

Pre Isak bullshit, how many of us had us as dark horses to win the league this season? I will happily raise my hand and say I was convinced we were gonna Leicester the dump this year.

Genuinely thought we'd be challenging. We could have finished second last season. Thought the summer would kick us to the next level of evolution

[Mike]

51 minutes ago, Miercoles said:

150 Yankees games a year so I get plenty of "being decent but always fucking up the key things" action already.

 

2-0

[macphisto]

It's difficult not to turn this into a PIF thread but as it's about growing as a club, we need to start seeing the benefits of all the appointments on the commercial/admin side. At the moment I don't see what they've done that Charnley couldn't do on his own.

[PauloGeordio]

1 hour ago, macphisto said:

It's difficult not to turn this into a PIF thread but as it's about growing as a club, we need to start seeing the benefits of all the appointments on the commercial/admin side. At the moment I don't see what they've done that Charnley couldn't do on his own.

[Miercoles]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

 

2-0

  

Didn't you have like a historically great start last season? 

 

Never going to win a trophy without a different manager and more importantly more than one good starting pitcher at a time.

[Mike]

6 hours ago, Miercoles said:

  

Didn't you have like a historically great start last season? 

 

Never going to win a trophy without a different manager and more importantly more than one good starting pitcher at a time.

 

 I will happily derail the thread and make it a Yankees thread. Our pitching is honestly going be insane this year imo.

 

Yes, Alan Pardew is still the manager. Yes that is an issue. 

 

But you're a fucking A's fan.  Fuck outta here.

[Dr.Spaceman]

8 hours ago, macphisto said:

It's difficult not to turn this into a PIF thread but as it's about growing as a club, we need to start seeing the benefits of all the appointments on the commercial/admin side. At the moment I don't see what they've done that Charnley couldn't do on his own.

 

Whut, the commercial revenue has literally grown from £140m to over £400m since they took over. That equates to seeing the likes of Bruno, Sandro, Gordon, Hall, Livramento on the pitch instead of the likes of Krafth, Colback, Bentaleb, Lazaro etc

[toon25]

Krafth is occasionally still on the pitch tbf 

[Erikse]

15 hours ago, Miggys First Goal said:

To go from relegation candidates to playing in the Champions League and winning a trophy in quick succession gave a lot of our fanbase an unrealistic idea of how the future was going to be. Was it amazing? Absolutely. Was it sustainable with the rules that were put in place? Unfortunately not. 
 

We peaked too quickly. Had we had a gradual ascent - which would have been completely acceptable especially with what we went through prior to the takeover - I think some fans would have been a little bit more lenient towards Eddie and this blip we’ve gone through this season. 
 

I also agree with what @1881 has said above. I think PIF need to reassess their lofty ambitions. Having our CEO come out and continue to plug the “best in the world by 2030” patter isn’t going to help anyone. You’re going to build up the fanbase’s expectations. The way things stand right now, with PSR or whatever term they’re using now, we’re never winning the league let alone being best in the world. If we become a team that fights for Europe and goes on successful cup runs every season, so be it. It’s better than what we had for almost two decades. 

 

Just proves what an amazing job Emery is doing with Villa, getting them into Europe for 4 seasons in a row, despite the added games every season.

[Holmesy]

20 hours ago, 1881 said:

It really feels that the club needs a reset in terms of realistic expectations.

 

I am  guessing that when PIF took over they really believed that, over time, we could become the next PSG or Manchester City. They probably thought that for a relatively small ongoing financial input they would get high visibility and an investment that would continue to grow in value.

 

But I can’t help thinking that have lost that belief now as the realities of the impact of all the obstacles put in our way has become more and more apparent. They will certainly want to protect their investment and will continue to provide us with the money to do so in terms of ongoing costs. But how much will they be prepared to invest in projects such as the training ground, academy and new stadium which will take years to repay themselves?

 

The way I see it is that the squad we have now is still nowhere near the level it needs to be at to sustain a challenge both domestically in Europe. Mistakes have been made, but PSR/SCR and all of the other rules put in place are designed to make it incredibly difficult if not impossible for clubs like us to do so.

 

We can argue over tactics, substitutions and the like, but changing manager is not going to solve the core issues and in the short-term will just add to the problems we face this summer.

 

Personally, for the future, I would prefer us to target a top-eight finish and the domestic cups and budget on that. If we make Europe, brilliant, but let’s not make it a necessity.

 

We will need to accept that some players will not want to join and some will leave for “bigger clubs”, but so be it. They are going to do that anyway.

 

Perhaps being a fan might be more enjoyable that way?

With hindsight (and it's obviously a wonderful thing) I would have loved them to come in and say we're going to try to get there with a different, more long-term strategy - obviously still focussing on getting the first team competing but alongside bringing in the best scouting talent in the world and hoovering up the best young talent we can find, giving them a clear path into the first team. Set up development academies across Europe and South America, bringing young players into the fold early and nurturing them under the club banner, increasing our overseas profile at the same time.

Competing head-to-head against teams with a huge headstart, battling rules specifically designed to hold us back was always going to rely on a manager/players punching above their weight, and constantly. And we've done great to-date, but how sustainable is that and what happens when we hit the ceiling? We move forward, they move forward too but with deeper pockets - it's a moving feast we can't win. 

We could be 4.5 years down the line, with a dominant reserve team, a killer youth setup and a conveyor belt of top talent coming through. That also helps with managerial succession planning - any manager we bring in (including Eddie) has to be on board with promoting youth, and working within a playing identity that is instilled at every level.

Anyway, it's all pie in the sky because it hasn't happened and doesn't look like happening but hopefully last summer has opened some eyes inside the club and made them realise we're working within a different set of rules and need to be a lot smarter.

 

 

Edited March 28 by Holmesy

[macphisto]

3 hours ago, Dr.Spaceman said:

 

Whut, the commercial revenue has literally grown from £140m to over £400m since they took over. That equates to seeing the likes of Bruno, Sandro, Gordon, Hall, Livramento on the pitch instead of the likes of Krafth, Colback, Bentaleb, Lazaro etc

Our commerical side is so murky that it's difficult to say what our true commercial revenues are after Ashley and PIF.

 

We look at Ashley and all the free advertising which not only deprived us of direct income but also would have put off other commerical partners. That's one example without even going into the partnership with Sports Direct and, latterly Castore. So our commerical income was £140 million but our commerical activity was much greater, it just didn't show on our books. 

 

In many ways it's the reverse with PIF, as they are using their related companies, Sela for example, to help put money into the club. That was my original point; it hardly takes much for a PIF company to get sponsored by Sela and Noon if PIF want it to happen.

 

We did well with the Adidas deal but that's all.

 

 

Edited March 28 by macphisto

[AyeDubbleYoo]

12 hours ago, macphisto said:

It's difficult not to turn this into a PIF thread but as it's about growing as a club, we need to start seeing the benefits of all the appointments on the commercial/admin side. At the moment I don't see what they've done that Charnley couldn't do on his own.

While I agree with your point, that last part is ridiculous. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

3 hours ago, Dr.Spaceman said:

 

Whut, the commercial revenue has literally grown from £140m to over £400m since they took over. That equates to seeing the likes of Bruno, Sandro, Gordon, Hall, Livramento on the pitch instead of the likes of Krafth, Colback, Bentaleb, Lazaro etc

I couldn’t be bothered to look this up, cheers

 

 

Edited March 28 by AyeDubbleYoo

[Dr.Spaceman]

12 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I couldn’t be bothered to look this up, cheers

 

 

 

 

I can't believe it needed to be said, it's the most basic, obvious point.

[macphisto]

34 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

While I agree with your point, that last part is ridiculous. 

Well what have they done? We got the guy from Manchester airport for infrastructure. Not much happening there. Hopefully will change soon with the training ground. We've had a few commerical hires, and yet our closet commercial partners are directly related to PIF. Hopefully, again, things improve soon on that point.

 

When regards to Commercial Income, as I say you can't truly judge it, under Ashley and under PIF, as our main commercial partners are and were directly related to the owners. Completely different, for example, to John Hall.