Growing Pains

[Abacus]

I think it's a great idea for a thread so we can talk about the overall direction of the club instead of putting it all on Howe, or PIF, or Wilson, or Hopkinson, or PSR in the individual threads as if any of them are responsible for every bit of it.

 

PIF thread is maybe the closest to it, but they don't set the sporting direction of the club and all those factors come together somewhere.

 

I was just thinking about this in terms of speculation about Tonali. Might he leave? Yes, and I can see why he might. But that's not all on him, or Howe, or PIF. Take a similar player at one of the ESL 6. They might have a bad season and not qualify for Europe the next year.

 

But would a similar player leave one of them? Less likely I'd say, because they would almost certainly spend a fortune buying and attracting players to play around them to fix it. And you'll already be being paid a decent amount with a limited pool of places you might go, so better to hang on for a year. 

 

Growing pains for us indeed then, unless and until we can get to their level. Meaning yo-yoing performances and likely player turnover in various seasons while we get there.

[Chicken Dancer]

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

Honest question and I'll likely out myself as a mentalist when I ask this but still.

 

Pre Isak bullshit, how many of us had us as dark horses to win the league this season? I will happily raise my hand and say I was convinced we were gonna Leicester the dump this year.

Not win the league but I thought we were a few signings away from being a permanent fixture in the top 4/5 and a few years away from challenging at the very top.

[Mike]

1 minute ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Not sure I’d call it flukes

 

To me they're flukes not because we lack astute minds, but rather the circumstances and timing.

 

Trippier being available when we needed leadership

 

Bruno being willing when we were just as likely to go down as we were to stay up.

 

Livramento being available because of his injury history

 

Chelsea choosing James and making Hall available

 

Isak not being half the player he's capable of being

(Foil hat) Milan cashing in on Sandro before the gambling scandal

 

The Joelinton move to midfield working

 

Dan Burn being local.

 

Add to that all the purple patches that have papered over previous cracks and I feel like our luck was due to run out. We got hot at the blackjack table, blinked twice and bet half our chips on Wissa.

 

Now when we venture into the market we're competing with the scouts at the teams with no restrictions and we're struggling to push on because we just are not allowed to offer what the other clubs can offer without concern. We have to re-evaluate how we determine who will or will not improve the team and I'm hoping this is the summer we do it. 

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

Not win the league but I thought we were a few signings away from being a permanent fixture in the top 4/5 and a few years away from challenging at the very top.

 

Not sure if it's true but saw after the derby someone say if we'd kept all our winning positions this season we'd be 2nd.  Without the fucking Rat.

 

We were going to win the league this year.

[bobbydazzla]

48 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

I think the biggest part of this for me is I don't enjoy the football anywhere near as much as I did even 2 seasons ago. In 23-24 we were at least superb at home but I actually think the issue is wider than that. Modern football is fucking shite. The treatment of fans with rising ticket prices, stupid kick off times and draconian ticketing measures with IDing, having to bend over backwards to pass your ticket on for 1 match if your club allows it et al, the sheer amount of games there are, the social media circle whose modus operandi is ragebaiting for interactions, the overall quality of football that gets played in the PL, the general decline in the quality of atmosphere at matches, the elitism that PSR/SCR/whatever the fuck these shit fucking rules are perpetuates amongst countless other things.

 

So you've got that and us being fucking lifting this season for a variety of reasons on top of that. So aye. End the season please.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Misery]

We sold a lot of those players a dream.

Ain't no dream now.

[Mike]

Just now, Mr Misery said:

We sold a lot of those players a dream.

Ain't no dream now.

 

Also that.  

 

But we're still a PL club paying six figures a week. It shouldn't be this difficult to revitalize the squad.

[Mike]

15 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Not me but some absolute mentalists were sneaking it to conversations  

 

[TwoForJoy]

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

Not sure if it's true but saw after the derby someone say if we'd kept all our winning positions this season we'd be 2nd.  Without the fucking Rat.

 

We were going to win the league this year.

22 points dropped from a winning position this season

[Benwell Lad]

Great thread which is inducing some interesting and thought provoking responses.

But, would it have been created and responded to so enthusiastically had Sunday's game had a different outcome?

 

That was a shit performance and a shit result against a shit team and it really, really hurt most of us. We are entitled to feel bad and curse, shout and gnash our teeth accordingly.

Questions about performances this season, the coaching staff, a poor summer of recruitment etc are all very valid, but Sunday's debacle and the emotion surrounding it has to be detached from any discussions about where we are in our longer term development.

FWIW I still think right now we're ahead of where we could have reasonably expected to be the day PIF and Eddie Howe walked into the club. Generally recruitment and results have been excellent since they arrived.

This has been a long exhausting season and Sunday was the nadir for many but calm analysis and assessment is needed right now, and in fairness has been provided by the excellent OP.

 

[Interpolic]

1 hour ago, Infinitely Content said:

Many Villa fans say the same regarding their football too, that it's been in decline since Emery's first season. I found it interesting because most generally agree that Emery is a top class manager, perhaps even better than Howe yet is suffering the same challenges and criticisms. 

I don't know why it's the case exactly, but it certainly feels like they're significant external influences at play rather than Howe or Emery simply not being good enough.

 

 

 

 

Reddit ain't always the best for football communities but the views on the Villa subreddit are striking in their similarities to many of ours. They're having the same conversations as us all the time, maybe at different times but some recent ones:

 

- panicking/fuming they'll have to sell their best player in Rodgers this summer

- fans arguing about whether Emery's bad patch was acceptable or not as it was falling short of the standards he'd set himself 

- bemoaning their busy fixture list and how it has left them spread far too thin

[Kimbo]

I think a lot of the misery is from not being sure about whether the goal is still to be “number 1”. If the club announced stadium plans tomorrow there would be a wave of optimism. Reality is though that rules are in place to prohibit competition and that isn’t going to change because the unambitious midtable fodder see it helping to keep them in the league. These rules are kneecapping the sport and any club with ambition. Are the owners really still looking to break that, or do they accept that it’s not realistic and have quietly toned down their ambitions? I think we’ll know by September.

[Yorkie]

1 hour ago, Infinitely Content said:

Also I'm with Mike, when you stop a moment to consider the fact that if we were to qualify for the Europa league, whether this season or even next, we would be probably the favourites to win it. The fact I can say that in a serious, calm manner is a mark of the enormous progress made under this brilliant manager and his team.

 

We'd be the favourites to win because we have a PL budget and the Europa League has been horribly undermined by various factors; I don't think that's any real metric of progress sadly. Brentford will at least be among the favourites if they get there, though their lack of meaningful interest in anything beyond PL survival would probably (hopefully) scupper their chances.

 

Nevertheless, being among the top 8 in the PL would still be a great achievement for us this season, given all the challenges we've faced.

 

The progress in the 3.5 seasons following the takeover was remarkable given our starting position and ultimately the neglect under Ashley's ownership still has an affect today. I thought the trajectory was going to continue upwards but unfortunately we got kneecapped in the summer and replaced it with a wooden one because all the metal ones had been taken. Isak's departure; the reasons why he left; and the way it played out, has had a ripple effect which we haven't efficiently dealt with. It's up to you how much ire you think the club deserves for their reaction.

 

It remains to be seen if we can 'go again' - i.e. upset the applecart all over again from a position of relative weakness. I'm not sure who or what we are and I look to the future with neither wild optimism or crushing pessimism. I think it's really difficult to predict what happens from here, and I include the rest of this season. There's as much reason to believe we'll have a barnstorming finale as we will a drab one. 

[LFEE]

The season isn’t over yet. See what April and May bring. I must be the only one who thinks it’s been one of the better ones when following NUFC. Lot of if only moments admittedly that could’ve made it great season.

 

Excited about how we will reshape the squad in the Summer. Though that excitement doesn’t mean it will be any easier than it was last summer mind. Have visions already of members on here losing their 💩 

 

Keep the faith in Howe & Co.

[Turnbull2000]

1 hour ago, Mr Misery said:

We sold a lot of those players a dream.

Ain't no dream now.

 

Feels to me like we've gone from an ambition to be the best of the best to just being best of the rest i.e. edge ahead of Villa more regularly, hope a breakaway club has a poor season and maybe snatch a CL once in a while. Which is still pretty decent by historic standards mind. But it's likely not the ceiling Gordon/Tonali/Livramento want to play to and possibly even Bruno and Hall. We'll have to accept a turnover of players who show real quality.

[Dr.Spaceman]

1 hour ago, Turnbull2000 said:

 

Feels to me like we've gone from an ambition to be the best of the best to just being best of the rest i.e. edge ahead of Villa more regularly, hope a breakaway club has a poor season and maybe snatch a CL once in a while. Which is still pretty decent by historic standards mind. But it's likely not the ceiling Gordon/Tonali/Livramento want to play to and possibly even Bruno and Hall. We'll have to accept a turnover of players who show real quality.

 

You'd have snapped your cock off for that level of ambition 10 years ago and I think a lot of people need to remember that.

[Keefaz]

It's hard to see how we kick on from here. Just retaining our best players is difficult, let alone bringing in improvements. I think Howe's focus on the CL was an attempt to address that? Raise the profile of the club through that route.

 

I mean, basically we just have to be realistic. I don't think we're ever going to be Man City. But, equally, I don't think Man City are going to be Man City for long.

[Deuce]

It’s hard to get too excited about future chances of success when the deck is stacked so heavily against us (and the rest of the non-cartel clubs). The hostility to genuine competition is what will eventually turn me off entirely.

[Maggies]

For me, it feels like we need some optimism to end the season on. That could be on pitch where we do put results together and get in to Europe, or off pitch with a few new sponsors and hopefully a training ground announcement.

 

It’s a struggle when it feels like both sides are failing at the moment. Howe has covered up the off field frustrations the last few years.

 

On Howe, my emotions from Sunday are settling a little. If we had another manager currently in charge and Howe was available, I’d want Howe in as top choice.

[Paz]

2 hours ago, Interpolic said:

 

Reddit ain't always the best for football communities but the views on the Villa subreddit are striking in their similarities to many of ours. They're having the same conversations as us all the time, maybe at different times but some recent ones:

 

- panicking/fuming they'll have to sell their best player in Rodgers this summer

- fans arguing about whether Emery's bad patch was acceptable or not as it was falling short of the standards he'd set himself 

- bemoaning their busy fixture list and how it has left them spread far too thin

it seems our clubs have very similar paths laid before us give the restriction in finances - the thing that amazes me is when ppl say its all to help stop another 'leeds' situation.  i mean what better guarantee then having rich owners?  i get regulation is required, it wouldn't be good to just let clubs spend spend spend, it would become the wild west.  but if owners have deep pockets and its their own money, then that should be a huge mitigation but the muppets at the top have pulled the ladder up after setting the rules and will for the foreseeable, be spitting down on us folk looking up.....

 

the panic for losing rogers for me is real - UCL qualification will be important, but (and im not fully au fait with the psr situ, as the whole subject just jades me), i feel even if we do qualify for it, we might need to sell a major name still. 

my fellow supporters questioning emery need their heads checking - and i think we all agree fans on certain online platforms shouldn't be used as a barometer - there are some absolute melts in the fanbase.  yes the run was not good, but for me i expect a drop off at some point in a season and a loss of form....its going to happen.  we had a bad start, recovered and have stumbled again - last week went a long way to restoring a bit of stability but still going to be difficult however our 'difficulty' of remaining fixtures stack up against others.

the fixture schedule has done for us to a degree in terms of player availability - rogers literally plays every game and konsa isn't that far behind.

 

its going to be an interesting summer for you guys regardless of league position.  for what it's worth, i would give howe another season - his league table finishes/cup success/CL qualification/tactical acumen overall deserves more time.  mistakes happen, emery has made some before/during games.  but looking at your results last week as an event in isolation, howe's body of work has been a miracle given the shackles he and the club face.

[PauloGeordio]

From this

 

To this

 

As frustrating as it has been at times along the way, we are still on a journey and haven’t reached our destination. I’m still enjoying the ride even though it has ups and downs. Hopefully we’ll have some wins to end the season and see where we are after the summer. HTL.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Don’t think I’ve ever been happier than when they took that Sports Direct lettering down

 

Just unnecessary vindictiveness by Ashley to replace the iconic text that was there. 

[kingxlnc]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

Honest question and I'll likely out myself as a mentalist when I ask this but still.

 

Pre Isak bullshit, how many of us had us as dark horses to win the league this season? I will happily raise my hand and say I was convinced we were gonna Leicester the dump this year.

Not win the league but sneaky challenge and then fall away by Jan/Feb. The thing is, when the season ended, hopes were genuinely high for many reasons: 

- Finally won a cup
- Finished in CL places
- Hadn't spent in 3 windows with a ton of budget to spend, without PSR constraints
- Kept powder dry in January when linked with Khusanov and others and didn't spend on Guehi the summer before when price went too high (which suggested marquee CB due)
- Isak considered world class and some even said better than Haaland
- Mitchell had been in place for one full year without any signings meant that we thought all the pre-work was being done
- Trafford had seemed like a done deal already
- A lot of the dross leaving - Wilson not extended, Longstaff, Lloyd Kelly
- Top track record of transfers when allowed to spend and not compromised by PSR
- The best midfield in the PL
- Englands full backs for the next decade

I thought a good second striker to support Isak, finally solving RW problem, a marquee RCB, a top GK and the team is looking complete - all the core gaps being addressed. 
In hindsight looking at that, we were four quality signings away from being a challenger. 

So near and yet so far. 

Now we've got to rebuild and start from scratch essentially. 

[Coffee_Johnny]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

Honest question and I'll likely out myself as a mentalist when I ask this but still.

 

Pre Isak bullshit, how many of us had us as dark horses to win the league this season? I will happily raise my hand and say I was convinced we were gonna Leicester the dump this year.

Thought had crossed my mind… 🤷‍♂️

 

(P.S. not the one about you being a mentalist, the other one…) 

 

 

Edited March 27 by Coffee_Johnny

[Jonas]

Think the whole problem is were not growing. Through no fault of our own. 

The glass ceiling is only going to become more pronounced as years go by, ourselves and Villa are sick of it already and if we cant smash through nobody can - the others just don't realise it yet.

Fans need the sense, even if false, - hope effectively, that your club will move forward, from whatever position your club is in. When a club has hit the ceiling and novelty wears off it goes this way before long. Your asking an emotive experience to be melancholic and settle. Especially if your club is capable of much miore.