Optimistic Nut Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Still think we should wait until September 1st before we can even consider what's a good season. For all we know, we might have spent £50m on 5 or 6 top-class players. Would simply finishing top 8 and settling for top 6 be good enough then? Thats an important point as well. We can't really assess how good our squad is compared to others until the transfer window is shut. One thing what is looking likely though is next season is gonna be the biggest change of a Newcastle team/squad/tactics, in the space of a summer in a long time. We all hope they instantly click, but if theres 5 or 6 new faces just in the line up then we might have to be patient. On the whole though, if they're good players with a good coach, they'll work. Look at Chelsea when Roman first came. They stuck Johnson, Bridge, Geremi, Makelele, Duff, Crespo & Mutu straight in, and they overhauled ourselves, Liverpool and Man Utd. I'd imagine any signings we make, with our good coach, would be able to overhaul the likes of Blackburn, Bolton & Portsmouth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leazes1986 Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Still think we should wait until September 1st before we can even consider what's a good season. For all we know, we might have spent £50m on 5 or 6 top-class players. Would simply finishing top 8 and settling for top 6 be good enough then? Thats an important point as well. We can't really assess how good our squad is compared to others until the transfer window is shut. One thing what is looking likely though is next season is gonna be the biggest change of a Newcastle team/squad/tactics, in the space of a summer in a long time. We all hope they instantly click, but if theres 5 or 6 new faces just in the line up then we might have to be patient. On the whole though, if they're good players with a good coach, they'll work. Look at Chelsea when Roman first came. They stuck Johnson, Bridge, Geremi, Makelele, Duff, Crespo & Mutu straight in, and they overhauled ourselves, Liverpool and Man Utd. I'd imagine any signings we make, with our good coach, would be able to overhaul the likes of Blackburn, Bolton & Portsmouth. We definitely might be able to overhaul them 3 teams, but i don't think we'll challenge Spurs yet and i'm not sure about Everton. I also think theres a chance that West Ham and Villa will be up there though so it could turn into a right old battle between 5th-10th. Them players you named there are nearly all top players though. I'd love to think we will bring in that sort of quality but i'm not sure about that yet like. Definitely a possibility next summer though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I've said that since pretty much since post 2 of the thread...top 7. Behind the top 4, and just behind Spurs & Everton. At the minute, we're probably on a level playing field with Villa & West Ham in terms of where our teams are at, and spending. Allardyce's job is to prove he's better at finding players and getting results than Curbishley & O'Neill...otherwise, like I said in my original post which I got griefed for, he's failed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza ladra Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Surely, you don't think that Roeder should have stayed on. Did you want to give him a chance to build a team? More than a year? No, I didn't think so. No because he was a s**** manager, in Allerdyce we've got probably the best English manager in the country who given time will get us higher than 7th place so 7th next season or he's sacked is ridiculous. Who cares if we finish 7th or 10th next season so long as we are improving? we're aiming higher than that and it will take years to build, should Man u have sacked Fergie back in the eighties? How are you going to measure improvement if not by looking at the table? I find it difficult to see how the club could show improvement and finish no higher than 10th. That's a 10 point improvement (by last season's table) from where the club is now. Fuck, Fulham, fucking Fulham did the double over us. Blackburn too. I think we will improve and we will show improvement which is why I think 10th will not be good enough. I can't see club showing improvement and finishing 10th. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leazes1986 Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Well i think all 3 of them are in very similar positions anyway. All of the squads need rebuilt and they've all got money to spend. The only difference is expectations are higher here. We've also got bigger names, but paper wins you nothing, and from what we've seen over the last couple of seasons, thats all some of them players are what we have at this club. Big names on paper, cowards on the pitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gggg Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 We can improve by playing better football, well actually playing football at all, being hard to beat, beating the big 4 once or twice. We can't expect the shower that just finished behind Portsmouth, Blackburn, Reading, Boro, Villa to suddenly piss all over them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza ladra Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Think we were 10th or there about at the time of the AZ debacle. Took 3 points after that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I look at our squad and I see us as having the sixth strongest in the league that is under some assumption that reasonable defensive cover will be bought in. If we don't have major injury problems anything less than 8th would be a disappointment. Villa, Reading, Bolton, Pompey and even Everton are stacked full of average players. They have a very solid core to the team though, Yobo, Lescott, Arteta, Cahill would walk into our side, Neville and Johnson would put up a very good fight and the two young strikers look to have a hell of a lot of talent. Oh and Valente would surely be a better bet than Babayaro or Carr at left back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I look at our squad and I see us as having the sixth strongest in the league that is under some assumption that reasonable defensive cover will be bought in. If we don't have major injury problems anything less than 8th would be a disappointment. Villa, Reading, Bolton, Pompey and even Everton are stacked full of average players. They have a very solid core to the team though, Yobo, Lescott, Arteta, Cahill would walk into our side, Neville and Johnson would put up a very good fight and the two young strikers look to have a hell of a lot of talent. Oh and Valente would surely be a better bet than Babayaro or Carr at left back. Agreed. Our team has no heart. Every good side needs a solid core to build on. Hopefully Sam has recognised this and is targetting players who will fill this capacity. I mean, realistically, we need a whole new defence (probably 4/5 bodies in), at least one CM (even if Barton deal goes through), and possibly cover for wingers (i.e. Duff-injured, N'Zogbia-immature, Solano-old). So in all seriousness, you're looking at us needing upwards of 6/7 players in just to cover our squad. And bear in mind, this is before considering the potential of Owen, Martins, Dyer etc. leaving. So I'm looking at this being a massive season of upheaval and one in which everyone from MA to the fans needs to understand what Sam's trying to achieve. If we can start looking like a team, with passion and belief, in the next 6-12 months, I'd be happy. Basically, look at Villa for instance. O'Neill came in last summer under the whole billionaire takeover cloud, much like Sam has had in recent weeks. What he's done is stabilised the team, removed the deadwood and built on their strengths. I think Sam will do much the same (as he has started doing already with the releases of Bramble etc.). And likewise, we as fans shouldn't be getting carried away. That's my thoughts anyway... 8) But anyway, enough tempered opinions, bring on the crazy rumours! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LucaAltieri Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Beardo just been on talksport... praised the Barton signing, reckons Owen will stay, and next season we'll finish somewhere in the top 8. Not sure I agree with him on any of those points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manorpark Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Beardo just been on talksport... praised the Barton signing, reckons Owen will stay, and next season we'll finish somewhere in the top 8. Not sure I agree with him on any of those points. "Top 8" eh? WOW! Not long ago our usual objective was "Top 6" Not long before that it was "Champions League Qualification" (ie - Top 4) Not long before that (as recently as under SBR) the expectation was "challenging for the title". AMAZING. Now, at this very moment that our aready rich club has been purchased by an ambitious English Billionaire and we have acquired the services of someone regarded as "the best English Manager" of his time - people STILL keep downgrading our ambitions. Down and down and down. Amazing. When will reality bite?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 We NEED to be in Europe next season if we want to improve... Min. sixth place for me!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LucaAltieri Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Beardo just been on talksport... praised the Barton signing, reckons Owen will stay, and next season we'll finish somewhere in the top 8. Not sure I agree with him on any of those points. "Top 8" eh? WOW! Not long ago our usual objective was "Top 6" Not long before that it was "Champions League Qualification" (ie - Top 4) Not long before that (as recently as under SBR) the expectation was "challenging for the title". AMAZING. Now, at this very moment that our aready rich club has been purchased by an ambitious English Billionaire and we have acquired the services of someone regarded as "the best English Manager" of his time - people STILL keep downgrading our ambitions. Down and down and down. Amazing. When will reality bite?? Previous ambitions were based on our previous squads. Right now we're threadbare with a locker room full of players who don't want to be here. We're a different squad. I think you underestimate the damage done by previous bad management. Reality has bitten, just waiting for it to bite you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I think we have the backbone of a decent team: given, taylor, solano, barton, milner, owen, viduka But desperately need solid defenders and a few class player to take us up a level... As stated before, if Sam wants to build a decent side he NEEDS to be in UEFA next season at whatever cost. He certainly seems to be going in the right direction by wanting new defenders...I will reserve judgement until the transfer window closes and whether little mickey stays with us (goal guarantee...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manorpark Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Beardo just been on talksport... praised the Barton signing, reckons Owen will stay, and next season we'll finish somewhere in the top 8. Not sure I agree with him on any of those points. "Top 8" eh? WOW! Not long ago our usual objective was "Top 6" Not long before that it was "Champions League Qualification" (ie - Top 4) Not long before that (as recently as under SBR) the expectation was "challenging for the title". AMAZING. Now, at this very moment that our aready rich club has been purchased by an ambitious English Billionaire and we have acquired the services of someone regarded as "the best English Manager" of his time - people STILL keep downgrading our ambitions. Down and down and down. Amazing. When will reality bite?? Previous ambitions were based on our previous squads. Right now we're threadbare with a locker room full of players who don't want to be here. We're a different squad. I think you underestimate the damage done by previous bad management. Reality has bitten, just waiting for it to bite you. I appreciate and understand the points you (and others) are making on this - but I think that some of us may be finding it hard (impossible even) to adjust to the 'new reality' at our club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Because we are the only club to have been taken over by someone/a consortium who is mega rich? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 sorry like but if we think everton and spurs are uncatchable then i want to wake up in another time and place right now i agree, with the current state of our squad, we're a ways away from them however you have to assume that allardyce will sign a minimum of 4 defenders and will make them into a unit like he did at bolton, to assume otherwise accepts defeat before we even start again assumptions but we now have a VERY effective target man, englands number one striker, and a bundle of pace, goals, strength and unpredictability in martins.... let's again imagine allardyce gets the likes of n'zogbia/duff/emre to remember what they're actually supposed to do/be good at and sets the team up to play with a gameplan rather than just walk onto the pitch and see what happens everton have been up and down since moyes took charge, they were decent last season but no more decent than allardyces bolton so with a bit of investment why could we not overtake them? everton, to my knowledge, were hardly hurt by injuries either which could have a massive effect as their squad ain't that big, same goes for blackburn/villa etc... to sum up, unless allardyce is forced to operate on free transfers/cheap buys, i see no reason at all why we shouldn't be aiming for these clubs...spurs are a bit further on than the rest but lets not forget they started badly last season then picked up due to (simplified account) basically out attacking teams - their defence is still a load of shite so again while i doubt we'll overhaul them i don't see it as an impossibility - a bad injury to berbatov/robinson/lennon could see their season take a different complexion (happened to us with owen right?) lets not start this season beaten before we've even started man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nappy Rash Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Whoever said top 7 or he's failed is spot on. Roeder and Souness had objectives of a top 6 finish minimum, f*** all has changed, other than for the better since we appointed Fat Sam. How the f*** can some idiots on here be happy with a top half finish of 10th when they've been demanding the heads of Managers who've finished near that mark? With players like Given, Taylor, Milner, Solano, Dyer, Barton, Butt, N'Zogbia, Emre, Duff, Owen, Martins and Viduka we should be demanding top 6 every fuckin Year. On top of that Fat Sam will be given money to build his squad, he'll have an entire pre-season, he should eliminate the horrendous injury jinx, he'll make us organised and difficult to beat away from home and if he doesn't manage top 6 then I fully expect every one of you hypocritical wankers on here to make your impatient, petulant, stupid little voices heard Otherwise I will be majorly disappointed, or maybe hypocrisy is a new fad as Fat Sam is possibly the biggest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LucaAltieri Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 sorry like but if we think everton and spurs are uncatchable then i want to wake up in another time and place right now i agree, with the current state of our squad, we're a ways away from them however you have to assume that allardyce will sign a minimum of 4 defenders and will make them into a unit like he did at bolton, to assume otherwise accepts defeat before we even start again assumptions but we now have a VERY effective target man, englands number one striker, and a bundle of pace, goals, strength and unpredictability in martins.... let's again imagine allardyce gets the likes of n'zogbia/duff/emre to remember what they're actually supposed to do/be good at and sets the team up to play with a gameplan rather than just walk onto the pitch and see what happens everton have been up and down since moyes took charge, they were decent last season but no more decent than allardyces bolton so with a bit of investment why could we not overtake them? everton, to my knowledge, were hardly hurt by injuries either which could have a massive effect as their squad ain't that big, same goes for blackburn/villa etc... to sum up, unless allardyce is forced to operate on free transfers/cheap buys, i see no reason at all why we shouldn't be aiming for these clubs...spurs are a bit further on than the rest but lets not forget they started badly last season then picked up due to (simplified account) basically out attacking teams - their defence is still a load of shite so again while i doubt we'll overhaul them i don't see it as an impossibility - a bad injury to berbatov/robinson/lennon could see their season take a different complexion (happened to us with owen right?) lets not start this season beaten before we've even started man IF.... IF.... IF.... IF.... Fact remains right now we've got a tiny squad. The likes of Carr and Duff (suppose you could add Emre, Zog, and Dyer) may or may not perform next year, we dont know. Allardyce might sign another couple of players... but we dont know if he will or not, not for certain. We dont know which of his targets he'll get. And we dont know how well they'll fit into his team/premiership football. It's not realistic to proclaim we should be over taking any club right now. There's still alot of work to be done. But this is all unimportant anyway, as I've never said we shouldn't aim to do it... I just said I don't think we'll succeed this season. There's too much rebuilding to be done. If you really believe that Allardyce has a solid long-term plan then we need to drop all this "7th or he's failed" crap. So long as we're showing signs of improvement (top half finish) next year then surely we're on the right track? Its a lot easier and faster to screw up a team than it is to build one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Whoever said top 7 or he's failed is spot on. Roeder and Souness had objectives of a top 6 finish minimum, f*** all has changed, other than for the better since we appointed Fat Sam. How the f*** can some idiots on here be happy with a top half finish of 10th when they've been demanding the heads of Managers who've finished near that mark? With players like Given, Taylor, Milner, Solano, Dyer, Barton, Butt, N'Zogbia, Emre, Duff, Owen, Martins and Viduka we should be demanding top 6 every fuckin Year. On top of that Fat Sam will be given money to build his squad, he'll have an entire pre-season, he should eliminate the horrendous injury jinx, he'll make us organised and difficult to beat away from home and if he doesn't manage top 6 then I fully expect every one of you hypocritical wankers on here to make your impatient, petulant, stupid little voices heard Otherwise I will be majorly disappointed, or maybe hypocrisy is a new fad as Fat Sam is possibly the biggest Abso-bloody-exactly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 sorry like but if we think everton and spurs are uncatchable then i want to wake up in another time and place right now i agree, with the current state of our squad, we're a ways away from them however you have to assume that allardyce will sign a minimum of 4 defenders and will make them into a unit like he did at bolton, to assume otherwise accepts defeat before we even start again assumptions but we now have a VERY effective target man, englands number one striker, and a bundle of pace, goals, strength and unpredictability in martins.... let's again imagine allardyce gets the likes of n'zogbia/duff/emre to remember what they're actually supposed to do/be good at and sets the team up to play with a gameplan rather than just walk onto the pitch and see what happens everton have been up and down since moyes took charge, they were decent last season but no more decent than allardyces bolton so with a bit of investment why could we not overtake them? everton, to my knowledge, were hardly hurt by injuries either which could have a massive effect as their squad ain't that big, same goes for blackburn/villa etc... to sum up, unless allardyce is forced to operate on free transfers/cheap buys, i see no reason at all why we shouldn't be aiming for these clubs...spurs are a bit further on than the rest but lets not forget they started badly last season then picked up due to (simplified account) basically out attacking teams - their defence is still a load of s**** so again while i doubt we'll overhaul them i don't see it as an impossibility - a bad injury to berbatov/robinson/lennon could see their season take a different complexion (happened to us with owen right?) lets not start this season beaten before we've even started man IF.... IF.... IF.... IF.... Fact remains right now we've got a tiny squad. The likes of Carr and Duff (suppose you could add Emre, Zog, and Dyer) may or may not perform next year, we dont know. Allardyce might sign another couple of players... but we dont know if he will or not, not for certain. We dont know which of his targets he'll get. And we dont know how well they'll fit into his team/premiership football. It's not realistic to proclaim we should be over taking any club right now. There's still alot of work to be done. But this is all unimportant anyway, as I've never said we shouldn't aim to do it... I just said I don't think we'll succeed this season. There's too much rebuilding to be done. If you really believe that Allardyce has a solid long-term plan then we need to drop all this "7th or he's failed" crap. So long as we're showing signs of improvement (top half finish) next year then surely we're on the right track? Its a lot easier and faster to screw up a team than it is to build one. i've personally never said anything like "7th and he's failed" and i don't believe that - next season will be what it is and none of us really know how it'll pan out however i'm just a glass half full kind of dude and given the players we have right now, plus the additions that WILL come in the i see no reason why we shouldn't be pushing other teams for europe noone should make proclamations either way but as allardyce got a team of largely free transfers and cheap buys challenging for 5th why don't you think he could do it with us when he'll have SOME money to spend? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LucaAltieri Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 sorry like but if we think everton and spurs are uncatchable then i want to wake up in another time and place right now i agree, with the current state of our squad, we're a ways away from them however you have to assume that allardyce will sign a minimum of 4 defenders and will make them into a unit like he did at bolton, to assume otherwise accepts defeat before we even start again assumptions but we now have a VERY effective target man, englands number one striker, and a bundle of pace, goals, strength and unpredictability in martins.... let's again imagine allardyce gets the likes of n'zogbia/duff/emre to remember what they're actually supposed to do/be good at and sets the team up to play with a gameplan rather than just walk onto the pitch and see what happens everton have been up and down since moyes took charge, they were decent last season but no more decent than allardyces bolton so with a bit of investment why could we not overtake them? everton, to my knowledge, were hardly hurt by injuries either which could have a massive effect as their squad ain't that big, same goes for blackburn/villa etc... to sum up, unless allardyce is forced to operate on free transfers/cheap buys, i see no reason at all why we shouldn't be aiming for these clubs...spurs are a bit further on than the rest but lets not forget they started badly last season then picked up due to (simplified account) basically out attacking teams - their defence is still a load of s**** so again while i doubt we'll overhaul them i don't see it as an impossibility - a bad injury to berbatov/robinson/lennon could see their season take a different complexion (happened to us with owen right?) lets not start this season beaten before we've even started man IF.... IF.... IF.... IF.... Fact remains right now we've got a tiny squad. The likes of Carr and Duff (suppose you could add Emre, Zog, and Dyer) may or may not perform next year, we dont know. Allardyce might sign another couple of players... but we dont know if he will or not, not for certain. We dont know which of his targets he'll get. And we dont know how well they'll fit into his team/premiership football. It's not realistic to proclaim we should be over taking any club right now. There's still alot of work to be done. But this is all unimportant anyway, as I've never said we shouldn't aim to do it... I just said I don't think we'll succeed this season. There's too much rebuilding to be done. If you really believe that Allardyce has a solid long-term plan then we need to drop all this "7th or he's failed" crap. So long as we're showing signs of improvement (top half finish) next year then surely we're on the right track? Its a lot easier and faster to screw up a team than it is to build one. i've personally never said anything like "7th and he's failed" and i don't believe that - next season will be what it is and none of us really know how it'll pan out however i'm just a glass half full kind of dude and given the players we have right now, plus the additions that WILL come in the i see no reason why we shouldn't be pushing other teams for europe noone should make proclamations either way but as allardyce got a team of largely free transfers and cheap buys challenging for 5th why don't you think he could do it with us when he'll have SOME money to spend? Fair enough... and I don't think we'll have a great season next year because it takes time to put together a winning team. Its not as simple as going out and buying a whole new back four, sure you need to bring in quality, but it takes time to learn each others game. If the signings come from abroad (as most of the targets seem to be) they'll need time to adapt to the premiership. Some will flop, thats just the way things go, and that needs to be taken into account. It also still remains to be seen if Duff and Carr are past it or their form was hampered by crap managers. We don't know. Nautrally I'd prefer a higher finish, but so long as we're top half and look like we're improving then I'll be happy. The idea that if we place 9th next season we should be calling for Allardyce's head is bollocks (and I realise you didn't say that, but there are others). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Yes Allardyce finished highly with a bunch of free transfers/cheap buys at Bolton but he'd had 8 years to build a culture and environment for that to happen. I have no doubt that he can do it again, but it's bloody stupid to expect players to be integrated and ready from the word go. I wouldn't be surprised at a top 6 finish mind, I just think it's daft to demand it immediately. Training regimes need to be worked on and implemented over a period of time. They don't come packed in a ready to assemble DIY kit which can be put together in a jiffy, shoved up a players arse and switched on at the flick of a button. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 In which case, why did Souness get so much stick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 In which case, why did Souness get so much stick. Because he inherited a side that finished 5th and spent 50m? Roeder started losing the fans when it become quite clear the team were not heading in any kind of forward direction. BTW no-one demanded a top 6 finish under Roeder, people were more realistic. Anyway, if you have a good manager you will be far more patient because long-term the chances of finishing where you want the team to finish is a real possibility and not just a hope. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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