Racism in football

[KaKa]

Nationality is a fluid concept. Generally after 4-5 generations in another country, people develop hybrid communities and culture.

 

You're talking second generation. I'm talking 4 and 5 of which there are plenty in the UK (especially Indians and Caribbeans).

 

Your point is bloody stupid. He believes he's been discriminated against so he should go back to his parents country of birth? Following your logic every black person outside of traditionally black countries should go back if they have been discriminated against.

 

Wow ... so I've said black people who are discriminated against should go back to their countries?!

 

Right, well carry on the discussion. I'll bow out of this one thanks.

 

 

 

 

[Parky]

Identity is a tricky subject.

[DJ_NUFC]

Um, because that's their heritage? Not sure what you're trying to insinuate. Are you saying that over time they become less Trinidadian?

 

There's a wide range of experiences in how they're ultimately brought up, yes. Some will still be raised very much within that culture, while others may not be. I have friends whose parents have been here since school, and were ultimately raised here, and still identify more as Nigerians than English.

 

My point is that if like Campbell you feel such an outsider then don't play for England.

 

 

 

Kaka.

 

You need to have a chat with more immigrants, their second, third and fourth generation kin.

 

Ridiculously insulated, your ideas on identity. No offence, and I know you don't mean any. But man, those responses are shocking

[Hanshithispantz]

Nationality is a fluid concept. Generally after 4-5 generations in another country, people develop hybrid communities and culture.

 

You're talking second generation. I'm talking 4 and 5 of which there are plenty in the UK (especially Indians and Caribbeans).

 

Your point is bloody stupid. He believes he's been discriminated against so he should go back to his parents country of birth? Following your logic every black person outside of traditionally black countries should go back if they have been discriminated against.

 

Wow ... so I've said black people who are discriminated against should go back to their countries?!

 

Right, well carry on the discussion. I'll bow out of this one thanks.

You think that Sol Campbell should go back to his own country? 

 

It's probably best if you do bow out of it, yeah.

[Parky]

White people know best Kaka.

[TRon]

White people know best Kaka.

 

[KaKa]

Um, because that's their heritage? Not sure what you're trying to insinuate. Are you saying that over time they become less Trinidadian?

 

There's a wide range of experiences in how they're ultimately brought up, yes. Some will still be raised very much within that culture, while others may not be. I have friends whose parents have been here since school, and were ultimately raised here, and still identify more as Nigerians than English.

 

My point is that if like Campbell you feel such an outsider then don't play for England.

 

 

 

Kaka.

 

You need to have a chat with more immigrants, their second, third and fourth generation kin.

 

Ridiculously insulated, your ideas on identity. No offence, and I know you don't mean any. But man, those responses are shocking

 

I guess what I was insinuating was that Sol might feel more discriminated because he just doesn't necessarily feel "one of the boys" in general.

 

I was looking at it purely from that viewpoint, and specifically to anyone who may indeed feel that way, when I said it may be better off such individuals representing their parent's country. Obviously these types of indviduals are more likely to be second generation.

 

I'm of Nigerian origin myself, but have lived here from the age of 12, similar to Victor Moses. I would have represented Nigeria myself, as it happens, as he chose to do too.

 

I'm not saying everyone should shun England and go back home. I mean, I understand what The College Dropout is arguing too, but don't feel like I was speaking in such broad terms.

 

Anyway, I'm done. Clearly not making as much sense as I think I am.

 

 

 

[KaKa]

This has exploded into a massive hysteria. I'm out.

[KaKa]

Nationality is a fluid concept. Generally after 4-5 generations in another country, people develop hybrid communities and culture.

 

You're talking second generation. I'm talking 4 and 5 of which there are plenty in the UK (especially Indians and Caribbeans).

 

Your point is bloody stupid. He believes he's been discriminated against so he should go back to his parents country of birth? Following your logic every black person outside of traditionally black countries should go back if they have been discriminated against.

 

Wow ... so I've said black people who are discriminated against should go back to their countries?!

 

Right, well carry on the discussion. I'll bow out of this one thanks.

You think that Sol Campbell should go back to his own country? 

 

It's probably best if you do bow out of it, yeah.

 

Um ... what?

[BrettNUFC]

:lol:

[LucaAltieri]

I get what Kaka is saying. In my own experience I have a few African friends who were born in the UK. They still identify with what they would describe as being their "home" countries. At the same time I knew a couple who don't seem to care where their parents/grandparents were born and just feel at home here.

 

However, none of this has any relevance as to whether or not people should be treated any differently based on their skin color/ancestry. As Newcastle fans we should know better. We regularly adopt people as geordies. Nobby Solano is about as far from your standard Newcastle native as you can get but no one would argue he's not a geordie. Same applies to Sir Les, Keegan (born in Doncaster), Tino, etc. They identify with us, we identify with them regardless of how similar or different they look or where they were born. And that's the important part.

 

If a player identifies with being English then we should be treating them just the same as we do everyone else - ie. hyping them to impossible heights so they can't possibly meet our expectations then slaughter them in the press when they inevitably fail. It's the English way.

[DJ_NUFC]

We don't think you're a xenophobe, Kaka, relax.

 

Being a first generation traveller myself, Indian by birth, citizen of planet Earth by constant travel and relocation, I personally feel at home in many countries, but more so now with Canada than any other as I've lived here the longest. If I suddenly develop the ability to whip in a decent cross, and I have a choice who to play for, I most likely would choose Canada. Not India, or Uganda, or England, or the US, or any other places I've lived in / visited.

 

And to ask my potential progeny to represent India because they may possibly have brown skin, to be identifiable for the supporters, is just silly, as you can see.

 

I have friends of many different places of heritage who are both close with their parents' culture or are completely alien to it.

 

So, as you can see, the easiest solution to this whole captaincy thing is to go by the simple legal identifier of nationality, and let the supporters fucking deal with skin colour.

[Lotus]

Kaka. I suppose people like Sol wouldn't have known they were going to feel 'on the outside' until it was too late and they'd already commited themselves to a National team. Also, many players of different origins or heritage may just want to play for a team that may go further in a competition.

[Parky]

Top posts from Luca and DJ.

 

I understand what Kaka is saying but I personally disagree with it to some extent. British born sportsmen regardless of ethnicity should stay and fight to represent England in all its guises whether it be as players or managers. The aim is to highlight and fight against any kind of perceived or actual discrimination....You ain't gonna do that high tailing it back to the Caribbean or wherever..You must be mindful you're not just doing it for yourself but those that follow.

The battle for identity is everywhere in this world but your best bet to highlight racism and defeat it is the place where you were born.

[KaKa]

Yeah, fair point Parky.

 

I guess I was thinking that if England started finding that talented players were choosing to represent these countries due to not feeling they were afforded the same recognition or respect etc, it might be more of a wake up call.

 

Probably wouldn't be as effective though.

 

 

[Cajun]

I would say the vast majority of football fans love a player if he is quality no matter where he was born or the colour of his skin.

 

How many Arsenal fans don't love Henry, Chelsea fans Drogba, Spurs fans King, us Sir Les, Liverpool Barnes, Everton Distin, Man U McGrath, Man City Yaya etc..

[The College Dropout]

Back on track.

 

Are there any 2 white CB's with a similar amount of caps as Ferdinand and Campbell with as little captain caps?

[The College Dropout]

I would say the vast majority of football fans love a player if he is quality no matter where he was born or the colour of his skin.

 

How many Arsenal fans don't love Henry, Chelsea fans Drogba, Spurs fans King, us Sir Les, Liverpool Barnes, Everton Distin, Man U McGrath, Man City Yaya etc..

That's not really the issue. He's talking institutional racism within the FA.

 

Most of us would happily have Cheick as club captain.

[Cajun]

I would say the vast majority of football fans love a player if he is quality no matter where he was born or the colour of his skin.

 

How many Arsenal fans don't love Henry, Chelsea fans Drogba, Spurs fans King, us Sir Les, Liverpool Barnes, Everton Distin, Man U McGrath, Man City Yaya etc..

That's not really the issue. He's talking institutional racism within the FA.

 

Most of us would happily have Cheick as club captain.

 

Do the FA pick the captain or squad? Surely that is up to the manager. The only influence the FA would have is banning players.

[The College Dropout]

I'm certain they have some influence. That's Campbell's point anyway. I don't think he's calling out any of his ex-England managers.  Just that they where probably encouraged to go the Mickey O route, the Keown route, Seaman route. There's not a white defender of Campbell's class with as little captain caps.

[Rich]

Back on track.

 

Are there any 2 white CB's with a similar amount of caps as Ferdinand and Campbell with as little captain caps?

 

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/teamplyrs/appsmost.html

 

It's an interesting one.

 

Terry Butcher is the closest to him with 7 captaincies in 77 appearances (Campbell had 3 in 73), in actual fact had Bryan Robson not got injured in the second game of World Cup 1990 Butcher would have ended up with just 3 captaincies himself too.

 

Tony Adams captained the side 15 times in 66 appearances which is the next closest, but he was club captain at Arsenal for donkeys, so that is still surprisingly low to me given that context.

 

Obviously a lot depends on who else is around at the time, but I'd suggest there's more behind this than race, although I really liked Campbell as a player.

[Ronaldo]

As if Sol Campbell's inspired a race debate, man. He's a self-serving arsehole. Always was.

[The College Dropout]

When I first heard the story I thought 'nope. He's wrong here. He was never captain of Arsenal. Only Spurs? And that's maybe.' But now I've thought about it he has a point.

 

 

That 10 year stuff is balls. But if he where white, half the players that captained ahead of him wouldn't have done so IMO. So there's some merit to his claim.

[Ronaldo]

Is there bollocks. Better players, better people or better leaders. Nowt to do with skin colour.

[The College Dropout]

 

Back on track.

 

Are there any 2 white CB's with a similar amount of caps as Ferdinand and Campbell with as little captain caps?

 

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/teamplyrs/appsmost.html

 

It's an interesting one.

 

Terry Butcher is the closest to him with 7 captaincies in 77 appearances (Campbell had 3 in 73), in actual fact had Bryan Robson not got injured in the second game of World Cup 1990 Butcher would have ended up with just 3 captaincies himself too.

 

Tony Adams captained the side 15 times in 66 appearances which is the next closest, but he was club captain at Arsenal for donkeys, so that is still surprisingly low to me given that context.

 

Obviously a lot depends on who else is around at the time, but I'd suggest there's more behind this than race, although I really liked Campbell as a player.

 

Very interesting. It's closer than I thought but the next closest has more than double. Then the gap from there is much bigger.

 

So It's Ferdinand's 7 and Adams 14. Campbell's 3, Butcher's 7.

 

I would include Cashley but that's a hot one.