merlin

All very well in theory, but in many ways, the horse has bolted... Our reputation today has declined further, so it will be even more of an uphill task - and take years - to persuade young players that we are a club they should join instead of Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool etc. the problem being trying to get through to kids and parents that they may have more opportunity at the B&W's/ lower league clubs as opposed to those mentioned. The main problem is that the kids themselves would see NUFC as a booby prize if they also had the chance to join the top 4 - plus the fact that, as I said, our reputation with young players will be used to scupper our chances by the scouts of other clubs... Just because IN THEORY youngsters may get more first team opportunities with NUFC/Lower div clubs doesn't mean that the kids will be any keener to go there - it will take YEARS to alter people's views on Newcastle United as a breeding ground for young talent.

I'm not really very pleased for you that you think a club of our standing with one of the biggest support in the country is a selling club again. What do you think we will do when the crowds drop to 30,000 or less ? I think we would average higher than that in the championship. Unless there is a good start, plus consistent winning performances, you'll be wrong ; and attendances will decline further the longer the club stays down... Times have changed now, and money is getting tight...

Marseille is one of the roughest cities in Europe. Huge working class population with its own distinct culture and accent at the opposite end of the country to the capital. Sound familiar? There are SOME similarities but not enough - apart from the completely different climate(which southern frenchmen would hate in the NE - even Ginola had a little gripe about it), the culture is miles apart ; most Geordies would drink these 'rough, tough; Marseilles' guys under the table for starters, and there is a very strong N.African influence which is totally absent in the NE.

In my opinion, most of them are unsuited to life in the NE ; only Ginola and Robert could be classed as 'successes' and even then, only for a limited period. Back in the late 60s. we had Benny Arentoft, a Dane, who settled in so well that he was an invaluable cog in the successful Fairs Cup side of 69 - before that, we had the Robledos from Chile, both of whom did well, esp George whose goal tally in one season was only surpassed by Andy Cole in 94... All this in the days before most teams had ANY foreign players ; the French have something of a superiority complex about their culture, and they all fancy themselves as cool metropolitan types(heaven only knows why..!!).Most of them do OK in London because it is that sort of place, so they are round pegs in square holes in the NE. Despite falling out with Gullit, and being unimpressed by the Board at the time, Didi Hammann settled well in the area and he, of course, was German...N.Europeans will always be a better bet in the NE than French players.

hopefully in richard money and his team we have the right coaches and hopefully we are also picking up a better quality of young player All very well in theory, but in many ways, the horse has bolted... It takes many years to set up a reputation for signing, developing, and bringing through , young players. Back in the 70s, Burnley had this tag, and it worked for them - but only for a short time because once the maximum wage went and the big clubs started to offer big incentives to the parents of young players who were sought after, Burnley started to lose its appeal, and the top young players went to the big clubs. Even then, there is no guarantee that they will develop into top class players at maturity..there are plenty of examples of those who had everyone chasing them , then flopped later on. NUFC, of all clubs, is in the worst position to start this policy, because it has a poor reputation for looking after youngsters ; there was a memorable bust-up a few years ago involving Kenny Wharton and Peter Beardsley which ended up with them having to give evidence at some FA tribunal because 2 youngsters didn't like their coaching and left for Forest....then there was the fiasco of the Academy, which took YEARS to set up when it should have been a priority...then, in KKs first spell as manager, Alan Thompson left because he didn't think KK was interested in youth development, and even when we were doing well in the Prem, we failed to sign Upson from Luton because he decided on Arsenal - even though we were the 'glamour club' of the time... I won't go further back & start talking about Bobby Robson deciding to join WBA, or the likes of Howard Kendall , Colin Bell, etc etc...you get my drift. Our reputation today has declined further, so it will be even more of an uphill task - and take years - to persuade young players that we are a club they should join instead of Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool etc.

'Shepherd has his say'.... Well, it wouldn't be a show without Punch....!!!

A very good post Jayson - this sums up the whole situation very well. I agree with most, if not all, of your points and would add that Ashley is mainly responsible for appointing the wrong staff to run the club ; furthermore, he has shown bad judgment and appalling management skills by alllowing the Keegan walk-out to be finalised - anyone with half a brain would have realised the drastic effect such an event would have on both fans and players at the start of the season. I believe that KK could have been talked round, and although it may have cost Ashley by having to fire Wise, it would have probably ensured the club would remain in the Prem, although only just, because the team is patently NOT good enough...the turmoil at the season's start has wrecked morale and this could have been prevented. So, despite the good work he has done to put the club on a better financial footing, Ashley has messed-up big time. Your post discount the idea that problems may have been caused by Keegan in this whole farce, the accounts show the neccesity of having the "transfer team" becasue they're ensuring that the money is going further, which is vital. Ashley 2 major mistakes have been appointing Keegan and poor communication. A 'transfer team' is NOT necessary to ensure that player purchases are kept within a budget ; KK has had to work with that before(look at the 'huge' sums he spent building the promotion side..!!)and I am sure that, if he had been given the TRUE PICTURE prior to joining as manager , he would have either accepted or rejected the job on the terms given to him when he met Ashley... The 'farce' is Ashley's handling of the situation and the fact that either ; 1.He didn't tell Keegan what the management set-up would consist of, Or 2.He told him one thing and did another, just to get him in when he couldn't recruit other managers. Your reply discounts the a/m possibilities, and I am NOT in the KK forever camp ; I DO, however, realise that Keegan could have been told a different story both before he joined the club, and prior to Wise & Co joining. As has been said in the past, both Wenger & Fergie said KK was RIGHT to walk if he hadn't been given control of signings, so it seems these experienced managers would disagree with your views about Ashley..

I don't agree. There's plenty of clubs who've gone down and haven't bounced back 'soon enough'. And some of these clubs struggle to stay in the prem having managed to get back up. To even stand a chance of bouncing back, we'd need to replace Kinnear imo. Personally, given the current disarray among the playing staff and the management team, and the apparent parlous state of our finances, I think relegation would knock the club back for several years at least. Agreed, although it wouldn't be a Leeds-esque demise I could certainly see us being in the Championship, if not worse for a fair while. Agree - unless an ambitious outfit with the right ideas takes over, NUFC will be down for at least 5 seasons. Its really tough trying to get promoted as a so-called 'big' club, because other teams try much harder when they play you ; for a few seasons, every game is like an FA Cup tie with NUFC's scalp as the prize, and the team will have to be totally rebuilt. This won't be like last time, when KK came in because he had a few decent players(Kelly, Peacock)and some good youngsters(Watson, Elliott & Clarke)to build on. I don't see ANY of the currrent squad surviving or being up to a promotion battle. Some of the young players MAY come through, but none look as if they are ready for the first team yet.

Absolutely right - but since when did logic play any part in the running of NUFC..!

Robson was poor in the transfer market with most of the better players in his team coming here before he did. I'll add Acuna, Bernard & Distin to the good signings list, but the amount of money blown on players like Cort, Bassedas, Viana, Bramble, Ambrose, Butt & Carr was scary. This is spot-on - Robson made some very poor buys which cost the club a lot of money. In doing so, he also made it easy for Shepherd to get rid of him in such a shabby way, because many fans were aware of this, together with his loss of control of the younger players. Bobby should have been moved to DOF in the summer of 2003, and his assistance sought with recruiting a good young manager ; had SBR been asked about this soon enough, we may even have got Mourinho....

A very good post Jayson - this sums up the whole situation very well. I agree with most, if not all, of your points and would add that Ashley is mainly responsible for appointing the wrong staff to run the club ; furthermore, he has shown bad judgment and appalling management skills by alllowing the Keegan walk-out to be finalised - anyone with half a brain would have realised the drastic effect such an event would have on both fans and players at the start of the season. I believe that KK could have been talked round, and although it may have cost Ashley by having to fire Wise, it would have probably ensured the club would remain in the Prem, although only just, because the team is patently NOT good enough...the turmoil at the season's start has wrecked morale and this could have been prevented. So, despite the good work he has done to put the club on a better financial footing, Ashley has messed-up big time.

I thought o'Neill was asked to come here but he decided against it as he had no respect for FFS and didn't think he could work with him. Yes, that's the reason - he thinks very highly of NUFC as a club, but didn't want to work with the Board at that time(or, I suspect, the current one...!).

The article MAY be cringeworthy, but Gabby won't be the last fan to feel like that - even if most don't say so in quite such an - er - unusual manner..! She is right to be p----d off with the way the club has gone and pouring scorn on her won't make it better, even if those who do it get a small degree of satisfaction from it... Her Dad was a decent player and the fact that she was hooked by NUFC instead of Leeds shows she had a mind of her own - we can ill-afford to lose ANY high-profile fans because the media are so anti anyway..

f*** off and delete this thread, WE ARE NOT GOING DOWN. And I wont even contemplate it, i will be supporting my team to the end, you want have a word with yourself (and Id suggest "c***"). 'The boy stood on the Burning Deck'........ You know the rest....

True, but only to a point - Robert & Solano were vastly better midfielders in that their contributions to the side were much more effective ; Nobby's passing & crossing was very accurate and intuitive - he saw things on a wider plane than Jonas does ; Robert had a MUCH better goals average and could hit a ball with terrific force..something we have not seen Jonas do yet... There is some truth in the argument that these guys were playing with better players, but I still think they were better as individuals too.

Anyone who has a decent memory will recall that Ashley didn't exactly make himself flavour of the month with the Middle Eastern Community after his arrogant treatment(allegedly..)of those in Dubai who he supposedly went to see last year after they had expressed an interest in buying NUFC... His reputation will have spread, hence the Al-Kharaffis turning their interest to Liverpool..plus, of course, the fact that they will have a ready-made top 5 side to take over rather than one heading for the Championship...

I agree with much of the original post - quite a number of people seem to think that the players are better than they really are ; if you take the ones that seem to be classed as 'good buys' by some on here, I would rate them as follows;- Jonas - Looks good because he works harder than most wingers ; however, his job, as an attacking midfielder, is to create, and score, goals. He has done very little of the first part, and NONE of the second. Coloccini - I rated him the best of the new signings at first, but his limitations in the Prem have become all too obvious ; often misjudges runs by forwards, which mean that he gets on the wrong side of them, then is caught for pace. His best attribute is his reading of a game, but when this lets him down, he is stuffed for recovery. Guthrie - Looks neat & tidy, but that is basically IT ; he is not, and will not be, a top Prem midfielder which is why L/Pool didn't fight to keep him originally.Would probably look better in the Championship as he works hard. Bassong - has done quite well but I want to see him against some of the sides we have to play at SJP in the next few months before passing judgment. None of the a/m are BAD players - they are just not good enough for a side with real ambition, and I agree that Robert was far more of a threat than Jonas will ever be, although Jonas's temperament is better.

Disagree with this slightly. This might be the season I have feared relegation the most since we were promoted in 1993, moreso than last season, and regardless of what happens I don't think that will change until May. So the first team may be in the worst predicament for many a year. BUT ... as a CLUB there are a lot of things in the background which have improved. I think it's generally acknowledged that for the first time perhaps ever we have a decent Academy set up do we? , and a proper youth recruitment policy. We have no bank debt and you know this for sure, if we havent why the recluctance to spend any money or even the money of the sale of milner?, which is a massive positive in the current banking market. Relegation this year would be a disaster, but if the unthinkable does happen, we are better placed to handle it than if it had happened a couple of years ago. In response: 1. Our Under 18 team are top of the league, unbeaten in 11 games. We look to be scouting worldwide, and actually signing young promising players from around the world to supplement the Academy kids. I can't remember this happening to the same extent 5 years ago, but may be wrong. 2. The club has issued many public statements saying the bank debt has been cleared. This doesn't mean there is no debt, its just that its owed to Mike Ashley. What this means is that we're immune to some extent from the "credit crunch" i.e. the ability to obtain finance to run the business at reasonable rates. 3. The Milner money was received at the end of the window. Its not a case of just spunking cash on anyone, they have to be the right players, and they need to want to come here. In the past we have had to offer massive fees and massive wages to players to move to Newcastle, and it seems that that way of running a club is gone. Now we're offering sensible wages, which hopefully means that the players we get are a little less mercenary. However if its clear that we lose a player in this window who does want to play for NUFC simply because we're quibbling over a million pounds, given what is at stake I take your point. Point 1. - A temporarily successful Youth team is no guide to future progress. In 1985,our Youth team won the Youth FA Cup ; in the side were people like Gazza....oh, and there was Gazza...and, don't forget Gazza....! NONE of the others went on to be successful in the top 2 divisions. Point 2. If the debt IS still owed to Ashley, it will at some stage have to be repaid - only a takeover can do this because the club will NEVER be able to for the foreseeable future Point 3.A successfully-run club nearly always BUYS the players it needs before selling its best assets - NUFC has nearly always done the reverse..

Nothing like as big as selling Cole - we were a major force in the Prem at the time, and selling our top striker to our main rivals....the difference was that KK had plans to sign both Les Ferdinand and Shearer later on...we have no chance of pulling off similar incoming transfers in the case of Given leaving ; the other big differences in this case are that the player is desperate to leave, whereas Cole wasn't - he didn't know anything about the transfer until KK told him, and in Given's case, we have an adequate replacement already. This sale is being forced on the club because it is a declining outfit whose best players want to be away - when Cole went, it was because the club was intent on improving the squad and getting into a position to challenge Man U even harder, which it did within a year...can you see NUFC being in a much better position in a year..?? And also, if we get cash & not players, it will be hard to attract decent players to join the club.

My favourite player of all time was Pele, who of course, happened to be black, but more importantly, he was Brazilian... The comment about African teams is often true, whereas nobody accuses Brazil of lacking nous - nor should they..its all about culture rather than colour. In any case, Brazil's great side of 1970, although having Pele and Jairzinho, both black , also had Tostao and Rivelinho - both white and both great players...Clodoaldo was also neither Black nor white, but a fantastic midfielder.. The side of 78 & 82 had Zico and Socrates, both white but both great players ; many people think the 82 side was the best since 1970 and even better than those of 94 and 2002 who won the WC, so colour really doesn't come into it - ability does.. The reason there are so many physical black players in the English game is because , as in Brazil, these kids often come from poor or disadvantaged backgrounds and sport is a major way of improving their lives, whereas areas like the NE & Scotland, which used to produce top players, are now relatively prosperous so the kids don't need to use football to get a good life - too much time spent watching TV or on computers..

The TF article sums up most of what I have said about the club in the Blackburn match thread - I agree with almost everything they have written, and anyone who can't see that this article sums up the plight in which the club finds itself is living in La-La land. Although I think highly of Owen's skills, I WOULDN'T have made him skipper - but then, there is NO obvious candidate anywhere in the side, and I didn't rate Allardyce's choice of Geremi either.. Perhaps that is one of the main on-field problems ; there is NO inspirational figure who can pull the players together and create a team spirit...as for those wanting Barton to get it, well, how much respect would YOU have for this guy ?? The team is possibly the most dysfunctional unit in the Prem, with characters like Zog(the sulk),Barton(the thug)as against professionals like Beye, Owen & Given who must view the whole pantomime with contempt and their discontent transmits itself to other players...the 2 Argies are in their first Prem seasons and must wonder what they have got into...the players all know that Kinnear is there because nobody of any status will take the job, so how much faith do you think they have in him OR the Board ! On top of that, the manager makes the club look even more ridiculous by his spaced-out comments on both games and referees - this also puts the club at a disadvantage in future games as refs will undoubtedly talk to each other about his attitude and foul-mouthed outbursts...its one thing to do that sometimes if you are Fergie and manage Man U, a completely different scenario if you are Kinnear managing a football circus like NUFC... Having said all that, at least Kinnear stood up to the plate when no-one else would, but that tells you more about how NUFC are viewed in the game than Kinnear's courage - he was out of work,61 and offered the chance to manage a large Prem club for a FEW months - what would you have done in that situation? The main problem starts, as ever, at the top - the Owner, 'Chairman' - I use the term in it loosest sense - the DOF(again, in the loosest sense..)all fail to inspire confidence from either their employees or customers(the fans), and have given the media - always looking for an excuse to run the club down - plenty of ammunition to assist the demolition. This is basically what True Faith are saying - indeed, it is what MOST fans are saying - and they are almost totally correct. If anyone had told fans 10 years ago that Kinnear would be managing the club because no-one else would do it, or that the club looked a cert for relegation, the fans would have laughed in their faces - just shows how it takes a special talent to ruin a club of Newcastle's potential....

How dull would the Prem be without the comedy show that is NUFC..SOMEONE has to keep the fans of other clubs amused in these tough times....!! Seriously, I sometimes think that some fans have such low expectations that a team challenging for promotion in the Fizzy-Pop every year(and JUST missing it..) would be more satisfactory for them than trying to punch the club's proper weight in the Prem.......

This is the best point....

That's an intresting knee-jerk reaction right there. While I agree with some of your post your forgetting one key factor. Form, it can change, even with the slightest bit of luck. Yes in current form it isn't looking good but it only takes one large slice of luck to turn the whole issue on it's head. We just need to hope it changes sooner rather than later. Nothing to do with knee-jerk(I've been saying the side is not good enough to stay up for a while, and my RELEGATIONMETER assessment was a 7 - WEEKS ago..) OR Form...the players' attitude tells you everything because those that CAN play, don't want to, and those that may want to play aren't up to it.. I don't know whether you have ever seen a Newcastle side relegated, but I have - TWICE...believe me, this side is showing all the signs of those predecessors..

Bollocks. We'd be s*** in the SPL as well. s*** in the SPL is 3rd. I think we should make the northumberland senior cup, our no1 priority every season, Blyth would probably beat us tho. The club used to do that in the 70s and early 80s...