mrmojorisin75

who in gods name backs ashley? there's a difference between looking at both sides and backing the travesty he's made of things not saying they're not on the forum, just i haven't seen 'em

jesus i'll probably get banned for keeping this up but he's losing a lot of money just keeping the club on an even keel right now so "small profit" is miles away man, the dudes firefighting and has been since day one now we do both agree his firefighting has displayed a massive lack of knowledge of the game of football and it's proving to be the catalyst in our demise incidentally do you honestly think his major intention when buying NUFC was profit?

this i understand but you've done nothing but use it as a stick to beat MA's regime with the whole time again iirc excluding the transfer window the summer he took over everyone could see extenuating circumstances for the lack of transfers (basically up to the one just gone) and were giving the guy time the while you were chirping in the background about sweetshops and that you fail to acknowledge the poor financial state the club was in and insist he's "making a profit" despite in this thread suggesting he'll take a 50m loss to get rid of the club!!! that's not really correct. My view on how he wishes to run the club is along the same lines that I have explained already and agreed with cp40 If we go down, he'll just spend less. I just don't think he has any intention of running this club like the other big clubs, and competing with them on the level we should, ever. so you didn't say he was in it to make a profit? get a grip man why do you disagree ? his business model was for us to be in the bottom 3 in early april was it? there's a huge difference between frustratingly incompetent decision making and "a plan" as we saw with FS the man is fucking up royally, to say he's following a plan is mental - i don't even think he's following his original financial plan due to a number of external factors that have occurred since he bought the club, never mind any football plan he might have had that's why and it gives him precisely 0% credit before you start I said business model, not football model. He thought that we would always get capacity crowds, or close to, whatever our league position, and probably thought we always had had capacity crowds. In other words he was a clueless tosspot like many other people. What he doesn't understand - like many other people - is that the success on the pitch drives the success of the business [in an industry where very few clubs if any make profits] and not the other way around. I've seen many blind views on these message boards over the years, but the blind and misunderstood hatred of the old regime is by far the worst, which I could understand up to a point by those who didn't know any different, but what amazes me now is the amount of people still clinging to it, and attempting to justify Ashley watching the team go down and down while clinging to his "plan", whatever it is. you didn't read a single fucking word i wrote did you? i'm so disappointed in myself that i even got involved again, find someone else mate i know you talk a modicum of sense but i'm refusing to be ignored in discussions these days...if you want to acknowledge the precipice the club was on before ashley bought it then we'll talk otherwise lets carry on with the detente, i prefer it that way of course I read what you said..........but I think his "plan" is first and foremost to just make a profit. Throw in lots of football related knowledge he didn't have, and you get out what we have now. Basically, I agree with what cp40 is saying. He has misjudged our support in terms of the extent of it, foolishly thinking we would draw those crowds whatever happened, and decided he would spend less and just stay in the premirership. All he had to do was look at the history books and he would have seen that it was the old regime who attracted the crowds back to the club, sadly Ashley is driving them out again. PROFIT? still? really?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/mar/29/newcastle-wigan-mike-ashley-freddy-shepherd-dave-whelan

this i understand but you've done nothing but use it as a stick to beat MA's regime with the whole time again iirc excluding the transfer window the summer he took over everyone could see extenuating circumstances for the lack of transfers (basically up to the one just gone) and were giving the guy time the while you were chirping in the background about sweetshops and that you fail to acknowledge the poor financial state the club was in and insist he's "making a profit" despite in this thread suggesting he'll take a 50m loss to get rid of the club!!!

that is the only thing I can think of too, re - any reason for doing it. nope, as teasy pointed out he'd have no control over what happened if the administrators came in so it makes no sense, they'd strip everything for whatever fees they could get the 150m he paid for the club isn't a loan as i understand it therefore he'd only stand to recoup a fraction of the 110m loan he put in after buying then if the admins sold the club he'd get that...however 200m is a fuckin dream all of that said it's the only reason i can think of too but it's still bollocks

I did give a reason why "things would go south", you should have listened. alls i can personally remember was you calling things too early and stuff like "running the club like a sweetshop" etc... when you had no proof to back up that that was what was going to happen that it's turned out like that is neither here nor there as in my and opinion, and those of many others, you'd made your mind up about MA due to your fondness for the old boards achievements as i say this is how i recall it - not a chance given to MA from day one from your side, if it wasn't like that then you can have my apologies in advance mate

same old same old; make a statement that's just vague enough to not see him pinned down if it doesn't happen yet his "wisdom" tells us it might but then again it might not same as when MA took over - he was sure MA was bad and that things would go south, no reasons why or any of that shit just vague "be careful what you wish for" tripe reminds me of the south park skit of psychics where they pull apart the bullshit they spin

It basically means administrators would come in and sell off Ashley's own assets at a fraction of their value and give the proceeds, minus there own rather large fee, to Ashley. All players would be available for next to nowt and the club would also be available for next to nowt. Unless Ashley desperately, and I mean DESPERATELY, needs a few million now I see no point in it at all. Would be better for Ashley if we went down, he pocketed a sum of the cash from player sales and then sold the club for about £100million. or just put the club up for 100m now, someone would probably take it on

No nobody owes the debt to him. He bought the club including its debts who are owed by the club itself. He then gave the club an interest free loan so the debts could be paid. ok, makes sense - so even if he called in the loan to the club that accounts for less than 50% of his original investment anyways (110m or so iirc?) so alls it would achieve is him getting back a fraction of the money he'd loaned to the club while simultaneously reducing the value of the "other half" of his money? sort of, right? i mean as the 150m he paid to buy the club can't be counted because it's not a loan all he stands able to retrieve would be the loan, or a small part of it should this fucking nonsense story turn out to be true on another note administrators would aggressively look for buyers for the club right?

been mulling this one myself & i'm clearly out of my depths BUT if ashley simply wanted a way out now regardless wouldn't this be his fastest way of doing that short of giving it away for free? i.e. SJH (iirc) owe the debt to him on some level i'd assume so if he called in his debt on the one side and put the club into admin on the other wouldn't he essentially end up getting some cash back faster than going through the rigmarole of selling to someone else and all that entails? as i say i'm well out of my depth but was just trying to fathom a way it could have an element of truth and the best i've got is he wants out ASAP EDIT: should have said i think it's bollocks and all mind

OK, taking your point to the extreme, we have thousands of ticketless fans attempting (one way or another) to gain access to the ground, who in their right mind would just open the gates? Question: I couldn't get a ticket in Marseille, I instead made my way to the nearest boozer. What would I of done if the police decided to just open the gates? Clue: The answer doesn't involve going to the pub. i'm not arguing anything at all about opening the gates dude, never have, patently an insane decision doesn't change anything i've said one iota however Doesn't change what? that you'll get some fans turning up at games without tickets? Nothing out of the ordinary, it happens all the time. If you are saying that if these ticketless fans had all decided to stay at home this would never have happened, then I disagree. The volume of late arrivals (those having that quick last pint), coupled with all those fans who were arriving late due to the large scale traffic problems, and the confusion caused by fans sent to that end of the ground from all over the rest of stadium, would of provided all that was needed to cause the disaster. Remember the area all these fans were allowed into was already filled to capacity, and there was no way to pass word back from those who knew what was happening inside to those still arriving and heading to the open gates. we're going round in circles - i'll never concede that the actions of the fans (not just that day but in the days, months & years leading up to it) had no effect on events the weight of the blame lies with the police but no-one has shown me anything, not even close, to suggest some fans shouldn't also be held accountable to some degree also why was there "no way to pass word back from those who knew what was happening inside to those still arriving and heading to the open gates."?

OK, taking your point to the extreme, we have thousands of ticketless fans attempting (one way or another) to gain access to the ground, who in their right mind would just open the gates? Question: I couldn't get a ticket in Marseille, I instead made my way to the nearest boozer. What would I of done if the police decided to just open the gates? Clue: The answer doesn't involve going to the pub. i'm not arguing anything at all about opening the gates dude, never have, patently an insane decision doesn't change anything i've said one iota however

not convinced tbh - the majority of our wasters will struggle to find another club unless they significantly reduce their demands imo who on earth is going to look at what the likes of smith & duff have produced for us then think about paying them big money? it might happen but a large portion of our squad (unfortunately for us) have blown their reputations to shreds in their time at NUFC i think we'll struggle to get rid of a lot of them

woah, wenger man...off his head, imagine palacios chopping people up in that arsenal team now with fabregas as a CM pair madness

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side. thanks out if interest what are you saying throughout all this? i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious? Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish. fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games. Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present. Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ? Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section. Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air. pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong. Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ? A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements. Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not. FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up! FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans. FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5? i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what? 30-45 minutes from liverpool? an hour? you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days? are you? seriously? I think she is. She also forgets the FACT that Liverpool playing in an FA Cup Semi Final was also or shouldn't have been such a big deal to them at that time ....... yet TOO MANY of them congregated that day. More than usual, would be the case ie more than expected. As toonlass is taking this government enquiry as gospel, I wonder what her opinion is of other government enquiries, for instance the Brazilian shot in London by the police for instance ? Toonlass - you HAVE been wrong on other things, particularly the "despicable" Shepherd and the notion that playing regularly in europe is "shit" yet you still find excuses for the man who is going to relegate us and take us to the depths of Leeds unless he can find a buyer. And I don't believe you are an old time supporter anymore. Sorry like. Disgusting that you are going to hijack a thread which should be a tribute to the people who died at this disaster, and those who still live with the horror and use it to start your old, old arguments AGAIN! Go back to your own thread and harp on there NE5. Back on topic, I will try and find exact numbers if you want Mojo, but I don't know them off the top of my head. yeah if they exist they'll essentially prove one sides point either way...the capacity of the ground and available tickets that day is known...no-one here has outlined the actual numbers present nor do i find it likely they'll be able to what i find massively unlikely is that that numbers of fans fell within the capacity of the ground and the disaster still happened

1? edit: was thinking just wigan, 2 loans at brum as well iirc (both of which he subsequently signed permanently?) - don't see why Wenger deserves the credit for those. fare do’s, I admit it was mainly his Brum days: Palacios Fabrice Muamba Sebastian Larsson Jermaine Pennant Nicklas Bendtner (was even shagging his daughter!) Johan Djourou palacios was an arsenal player? the spurs lad?

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side. thanks out if interest what are you saying throughout all this? i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious? Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish. fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games. Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present. Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ? Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section. Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air. pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong. Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ? A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements. Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not. FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up! FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans. FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5? i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what? 30-45 minutes from liverpool? an hour? you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days? are you? seriously? I think she is. She also forgets the FACT that Liverpool playing in an FA Cup Semi Final was also or shouldn't have been such a big deal to them at that time ....... yet TOO MANY of them congregated that day. More than usual, would be the case ie more than expected. As toonlass is taking this government enquiry as gospel, I wonder what her opinion is of other government enquiries, for instance the Brazilian shot in London by the police for instance ? Toonlass - you HAVE been wrong on other things, particularly the "despicable" Shepherd and the notion that playing regularly in europe is "shit" yet you still find excuses for the man who is going to relegate us and take us to the depths of Leeds unless he can find a buyer. And I don't believe you are an old time supporter anymore. Sorry like. dude, no need!

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side. thanks out if interest what are you saying throughout all this? i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious? Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish. fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games. Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present. Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ? Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section. Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air. pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong. Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ? A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements. Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not. FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up! FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans. FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5? i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what? 30-45 minutes from liverpool? an hour? you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days? are you? seriously? Im simply going off what the enquiry found. Wouldn't it not be easier for a government enquiry, in those days of hooligan rife football, to blame the football hooligans than there own police? The simple evidence showed that the number of ticketless fans (and fans with forged tickets) was not as great as rumours made out. gonna have to push you i'm afraid as you won't stop quoting the report verbatim: how many did the report say? lets bear in mind the number of ticketless fans that travel to EUROPEAN games these days (70,000 celtic fans in seville iirc) are you honestly gonna sit there and tell me that there couldn't have been dangerous levels of fans at hillsborough? one hour away from liverpool...! or quote the report which MUST, given the credibility you've built up for it, have estimated this simple fact, no?

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side. thanks out if interest what are you saying throughout all this? i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious? Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish. fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games. Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present. Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ? Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section. Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air. pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong. Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ? A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements. Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not. FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up! FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans. FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5? i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what? 30-45 minutes from liverpool? an hour? you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days? are you? seriously?

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side. thanks out if interest what are you saying throughout all this? i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious? Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish. fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games. Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present. Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ? Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section. Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air. pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong. Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ? A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not. exactly - you can't take the context out of this disaster - reading the report and quoting it means fuck all

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side. thanks out if interest what are you saying throughout all this? i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious? Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish. fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games. Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present. Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ? Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section. Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air. toonlass, as an obvious fountain of knowledge here is the general consensus that the number of fans at the game was within the limits of the stadium? Had the fans with tickets for other parts of the ground been allowed to go to the stands they were supposed to be in, and had the police in the control room been watching pens 3 and 4 properly then there should have been enough room. As it was while the fans were allowed to stream into pens 3 and 4 behind the goal despite them being full to capacity, the pens either side of 3 and 4 were relatively empty, but the people trapped in the central pens 3 and 4 could not make it into the adjacent pens as there was a 7 foot spiked fence keeping them in. By simply diverting the fans who escaped the crush outside the ground, when the police were instructed by the Chief Super to open the gate, into the side pens and not allowing them to walk through the tunnel into the central pens the whole thing could have been avoided. so you don't know how many surplus fans there were then?

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side. thanks out if interest what are you saying throughout all this? i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious? Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish. fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games. Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present. Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ? crux of the matter mate, actual numbers vs expected - i'd love to know Had the police set up the same cordoning system as they had the year before then the ticketless fans would not have made it to the turnstiles. However the official report done on the disaster made the point that it was not the ticketless fans which made up the vast numbers outside the ground at the time the gate was opened but the late arrivals of coaches and cars which had been held up on the motorway. On a normal day the arrival of the coaches would have been staggered but they arrived all at once and this meant a huge number of fans (the majority with tickets) were forced into a small area outside the turnstiles where the crushing started. so the fans with tickets were delayed, who was inside? what is the estimate of available tickets vs actual fans vs space in the ground? can you answer any specifics?

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side. thanks out if interest what are you saying throughout all this? i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious? Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish. fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games. Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present. Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ? Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section. Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air. toonlass, as an obvious fountain of knowledge here is the general consensus that the number of fans at the game was within the limits of the stadium?

why is there an "if" at the start of your sentence? Because there is one a the start of the thread title ah