Would you trust Allardyce with Ashley's money?

[tmonkey]

Given

Beye

Cacapa

Faye

Jose Enrique

Milner

Geremi

Butt

N'Zogbia

Martins

Smith

 

That was the team that gave the best performance this season based on one game against a decent side (Everton) - and it might have something to do with both wingers being on either wing at the same time, along with a strike partnership that actually involves a partnership as opposed to two incompatible forwards being lumped together.

 

We do have a decent team within the current squad, but it wont get a chance because Big Sam feels the need to be overly clever - rotating players, changing formations, changing positions, etc.

 

8 of those players started today, the 9th was on the bench.

 

But in different positions in an unbalanced formation.

[indi]

Indi,

 

I'll not quote your reply otherwise this post will end up massive.

 

With regard to the 'managing big names' thing, I'm not in total agreement because even though he's had the Djorkaeff's, Anelka's, Okocka's and Diouf's of the world to manage they've all either been virtually finished or really damaged goods.

 

Big names - yes, big names needing to prove something - yes, big names like golden boy Owen - no.

 

Agree with regard to Newcastle being hard sell at the minute. Lets face it, the main attraction over the last five years has been ££££££££.

 

I agree we need to walk before we can run but we need to be buying players that are better than those being signed by Spurs and Man City otherwise we're accepting sixth place downover.

 

Fair point about the big-names he's had before, but surely if they're damaged goods, then that's for a reason and he managed to get them to perform and want to play for little old Bolton. An achievement not to be sniffed at in my view. It's also quite a feet to get the best out of fading stars and this leads me onto Owen. He's not exactly at the end of his career, but he's not at his peak either and in the same way as for Smith and happened with Butt in the past, it's going to require either time or exceptional management to get them to accept that they've had to take a step down and to stop sulking about it and put their heart and soul into playing well for us. Sam's done that successfully before and let's face it any really top player is going to see us as a step down, aren't they.

 

It's no surprise to me that Sven has stepped in at City and bought really well from the start, that's what he does and it's how he's achieved bis success over the years, he's a chequebook manager and City have splashed quite a lot of cash. It's one of the reasons that he didn't do so well with England, he still did pretty well like and for me has been the best manager England have had since Robson, by a long way too.

 

Sam's a completely different style of manager to Sven. Sven spots talent and grabs it, then uses a softly softly approach to massage egos and keep his players wanting to play for him, he's very good at this and it's an approach that can bring success very quickly. Sam isn't like that, he's all about building infrastructure and putting procedures in place that allow players who are prepared to put the work in to perform to the best of their abilities. This takes time, it won't have an immediate effect on the pitch, but the advantage is that the club itself is in a good state, so if the players or manager leaves it's not necessarily the end of the world. If that's what we want then we need to give it time to develop, I think that we as a club could benefit from this kind of long-term approach, we've spent far too much time living in the moment over the last few years and it's not worked.

[Parky]

Given

Beye

Cacapa

Faye

Jose Enrique

Milner

Geremi

Butt

N'Zogbia

Martins

Smith

 

That was the team that gave the best performance this season based on one game against a decent side (Everton) - and it might have something to do with both wingers being on either wing at the same time, along with a strike partnership that actually involves a partnership as opposed to two incompatible forwards being lumped together.

 

We do have a decent team within the current squad, but it wont get a chance because Big Sam feels the need to be overly clever - rotating players, changing formations, changing positions, etc.

 

8 of those players started today, the 9th was on the bench.

 

But in different positions in an unbalanced formation.

 

...insofar as to say he's bringing himself down...And I agree he is trying just too many things and all the time...

[Jamie]

No !

 

Get rid before January so a new manager can come in and bring some quality in.

Not someone like Allardyce who is fucking clueless !

I've now had it up to here with Allardyce and have now turned on him 

No matter how well we do for the rest of our season, in fact, our season starts now tbh

 

[OzzieMandias]

Sam's a completely different style of manager to Sven. Sven spots talent and grabs it, then uses a softly softly approach to massage egos and keep his players wanting to play for him, he's very good at this and it's an approach that can bring success very quickly. Sam isn't like that, he's all about building infrastructure and putting procedures in place that allow players who are prepared to put the work in to perform to the best of their abilities. This takes time, it won't have an immediate effect on the pitch, but the advantage is that the club itself is in a good state, so if the players or manager leaves it's not necessarily the end of the world. If that's what we want then we need to give it time to develop, I think that we as a club could benefit from this kind of long-term approach, we've spent far too much time living in the moment over the last few years and it's not worked.

 

Good assessment.

[Delima]

Yes I would.

[NE5]

 

No, but he might have been told it's nobody.

 

Mort has been saying recently that he's still looking for people at different levels, I think he specifically mentioned management of different areas within the club.

 

what are you talking about ?

 

the only thing that concerns people is the first team. Could you tell us what "different area" you think Mort is talking about here

[Mick]

 

what are you talking about ?

 

the only thing that concerns people is the first team. Could you tell us what "different area" you think Mort is talking about here

 

Make your own mind up from these quotes:

 

“I’m not looking to bring in a new chairman or anything. There’s a couple of senior people I think we need to add to help the management of the club, which will make life a little easier.

 

“It would enable me to move up to a slightly higher level in terms of strategy, but at the moment I’m getting down into the detail of lots of things, which is a healthy thing for me to do, to understand what needs to be done. Because over time I’d hope to be able to get a bit more management in there as well.”

[NE5]

 

what are you talking about ?

 

the only thing that concerns people is the first team. Could you tell us what "different area" you think Mort is talking about here

 

Make your own mind up from these quotes:

 

“I’m not looking to bring in a new chairman or anything. There’s a couple of senior people I think we need to add to help the management of the club, which will make life a little easier.

 

“It would enable me to move up to a slightly higher level in terms of strategy, but at the moment I’m getting down into the detail of lots of things, which is a healthy thing for me to do, to understand what needs to be done. Because over time I’d hope to be able to get a bit more management in there as well.”

 

Fair enough. But the one thing he needs to make life easier, is a few better quality footballers. And fast.

 

More average players is not on the menu.

 

 

[Mick]

 

Fair enough. But the one thing he needs to make life easier, is a few better quality footballers. And fast.

 

More average players is not on the menu.

 

 

 

I'd love to see some better quality players come in but I'd also love to see the manager get the best out of what he's got.  It's pointless throwing good money after bad if we can't even use what we've already got.

[NE5]

 

Fair enough. But the one thing he needs to make life easier, is a few better quality footballers. And fast.

 

More average players is not on the menu.

 

 

 

I'd love to see some better quality players come in but I'd also love to see the manager get the best out of what he's got.  It's pointless throwing good money after bad if we can't even use what we've already got.

 

interesting that our set of average players were outclassed from start to finish by Liverpools quality footballers. The trick is to pay the going rate for quality players sometimes, like Torres for instance and not loads of cheap defenders, wouldn't you agree ?

 

Because we haven't got good players. He bought too many cheap defenders.  He's got to get quality footballers or he's out, thats if he's still here in January.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mick]

 

interesting that our set of average players were outclassed from start to finish by Liverpools quality footballers. The trick is to pay the going rate for quality players sometimes, like Torres for instance and not loads of cheap defenders, wouldn't you agree ?

 

Because we haven't got good players. He bought too many cheap defenders.  He's got to get quality footballers or he's out, thats if he's still here in January.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The manager has got to be given the players he wants to bring to the club, hopefully he'll want quality players.  It doesn't matter which type of player he brings in though if he can't get the best out of them, which is what we're seeing at the minute.  I'd like to see us go for some creativity in January but I'm not sure we'll see the best of them unless Allardyce can make his mind up about what he’s trying to do.

 

I really think he’s got about 3 games to get the players motivated again, after that he’ll have a massive job to sort them out, the players have to believe in what the manager is trying to do, even if it’s only them thinking he knows what he’s trying to do.

 

I’m not even sure we’ll be able to attract quality in our current position.

 

[NE5]

 

interesting that our set of average players were outclassed from start to finish by Liverpools quality footballers. The trick is to pay the going rate for quality players sometimes, like Torres for instance and not loads of cheap defenders, wouldn't you agree ?

 

Because we haven't got good players. He bought too many cheap defenders.  He's got to get quality footballers or he's out, thats if he's still here in January.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The manager has got to be given the players he wants to bring to the club, hopefully he'll want quality players.  It doesn't matter which type of player he brings in though if he can't get the best out of them, which is what we're seeing at the minute.  I'd like to see us go for some creativity in January but I'm not sure we'll see the best of them unless Allardyce can make his mind up about what he’s trying to do.

 

I really think he’s got about 3 games to get the players motivated again, after that he’ll have a massive job to sort them out, the players have to believe in what the manager is trying to do, even if it’s only them thinking he knows what he’s trying to do.

 

I’m not even sure we’ll be able to attract quality in our current position.

 

 

I take it you mean to say he has got to be given the money to buy quality players ? How much quality, the likes of the Owen we bought, or what Shearer was, or Les Ferdinand, or Beardsley in his prime ? Or average players that cost less money ?

 

Maybe he is already getting the best from some of the players. Maybe they just aren't good enough. He is playing some players in their wrong positions, but most of them aren't good enough anyway.

 

I disagree that we couldn't attract quality, I think if we show them the club and show them ambition, they will sign. Newcastle United have now played over 100 games in europe. Players know who we are. They will not sign if they think the club has no ambition, but they will sign if they do see this.

 

 

[Dave]

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/premiership/article3198920.ece

 

Allardyce faces block on January arrivals

By Michael Walker

Published: 27 November 2007

 

The Newcastle United chairman, Chris Mort, yesterday tried to give Sam Allardyce the club's full backing following Saturday's demoralising 3-0 home defeat to Liverpool, and the humiliating reaction of the home fans towards Allardyce. Mort's response to a question about supporting his manager in the long term came in the reply: "We would like to," which is different from saying, "We will."

 

The ambiguity in his answer will not reassure Allardyce and neither will Mort's opinion on the need for new signings in January to help address the present slump. "We need our team performing on the pitch as a unit," Mort said, "I don't think adding new players will necessarily sort that out."

 

It would be understandable if Newcastle were considering their options post-Allardyce and if Alan Shearer is their choice they need to accelerate, because Shearer is interesting the Football Association as successor to Steve McClaren in the England post. It is thought that the interest is mutual. Shearer, however, if offered, would struggle to turn down his hometown club and his arrival would be expected to lift Newcastle in the manner of Kevin Keegan 15 years ago.

 

Another option is Harry Redknapp, who has impressed Newcastle's owner, Mike Ashley, enough for him last week to nominate Redknapp as his choice for England manager.

 

Allardyce has to work on under pressure internally and externally. Saturday's post-match dressing-room attempt at clearing the air is not thought to have convinced, with the players listening to Allardyce in near silence.

 

"Sam is working hard with the coaching staff to get the current squad working together," Mort said. "It is certainly not surprising the fans are not happy. You pay decent money to watch a Premier League game these days and if someone has paid their money to watch a game, then they're entitled to voice their concern if it's not going right.

 

"We have had two disappointing home games on the trot. The fans don't want that, the manager doesn't want that and we certainly don't want that. Sam is a very experienced manager, and I am sure he'll work hard to get his best team and how they can work together in the best way."

 

The apparent reluctance of the hierarchy to discuss January with Allardyce is perhaps ominous. Although Habib Beye and Claudio Cacapa have been sporadically impressive, as has Mark Viduka, Allardyce's summer signings are yet to win over fans. The back three against Liverpool – Beye, David Rozehnal and Jose Enrique – were Allardyce signings but none played well and after the game Allardyce said other defenders had been targeted first.

 

"I was after [Mikaël] Silvestre, [sylvain] Distin and Tal Ben Haim, " he said. "Once your first targets have gone, you look elsewhere. Your only option is to look at what's available in the foreign markets. These are good players, but they're finding it difficult to play in the Premier League on a regular basis. All the other Premier League clubs are spending heavily, more than ever before, and that increases the quality in the division. You have to try to live with that."

 

There is a trip to Blackburn on Saturday and then it is Arsenal at home. The way Newcastle have been playing, there is little expectation either can be won. That would leave Allardyce with one point from 18.

[Wullie]

Fair comment from Mort imo. Allardyce has to earn backing right now, because he's brought a lot of his own players in and they're not doing it. We're not asking for miracles, just not the disgraceful performances of the last month and Mort is right, get them playing as a unit and we'll climb the table because we do have good players.

 

No point giving him loadsa money in the current situation, because it's not the ability of the players that is the problem at the moment.

[Guest SLK]

Definitely we have better players than that show of sh*t displays against Pompy, Liverpool, Derby and Reading....We have good individual players who no one can honestly say they are worse than Derby and Reading players...The way we played in these 4 games you would have though even having better individual players wouldn't have helped the situation...

 

The problem is that as Mort said, we are NOT playing as a team, one unit and I think Sam can take part of the blame for not helping building a team spirit very quickly with his continuous chopping and changing of the first eleven and putting players out of their best positions in unfamiliar formations...

 

Sam needs to go back to basics and stick with one team. If he can get things sorted out then there is a good argument to give him money in SUMMER...

[Howaythelads]

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/premiership/article3198920.ece

 

Allardyce faces block on January arrivals

By Michael Walker

Published: 27 November 2007

 

The Newcastle United chairman, Chris Mort, yesterday tried to give Sam Allardyce the club's full backing following Saturday's demoralising 3-0 home defeat to Liverpool, and the humiliating reaction of the home fans towards Allardyce. Mort's response to a question about supporting his manager in the long term came in the reply: "We would like to," which is different from saying, "We will."

 

The ambiguity in his answer will not reassure Allardyce and neither will Mort's opinion on the need for new signings in January to help address the present slump. "We need our team performing on the pitch as a unit," Mort said, "I don't think adding new players will necessarily sort that out."

....<Snip>

 

Not being funny, but what if Fred had said that bit in bold? I reckon World War III would have kicked pretty quickly with people on here banging on about him interfering in team affairs and talking about stuff that's nothing to do with him. Which would be true of course and which apply to Mort in this instance. Whether or not we need new players is one for the team manager to decide, not for Mort to decide.

[madras]

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/premiership/article3198920.ece

 

Allardyce faces block on January arrivals

By Michael Walker

Published: 27 November 2007

 

The Newcastle United chairman, Chris Mort, yesterday tried to give Sam Allardyce the club's full backing following Saturday's demoralising 3-0 home defeat to Liverpool, and the humiliating reaction of the home fans towards Allardyce. Mort's response to a question about supporting his manager in the long term came in the reply: "We would like to," which is different from saying, "We will."

 

The ambiguity in his answer will not reassure Allardyce and neither will Mort's opinion on the need for new signings in January to help address the present slump. "We need our team performing on the pitch as a unit," Mort said, "I don't think adding new players will necessarily sort that out."

....<Snip>

 

Not being funny, but what if Fred had said that bit in bold? I reckon World War III would have kicked pretty quickly with people on here banging on about him interfering in team affairs and talking about stuff that's nothing to do with him. Which would be true of course and which apply to Mort in this instance. Whether or not we need new players is one for the team manager to decide, not for Mort to decide.

it's a bit of both really. mort is right that they need to perform on the pitch as a unit, that can be started with the present group of players then improved upon with other/better players.

[johnnypd]

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/premiership/article3198920.ece

 

Allardyce faces block on January arrivals

By Michael Walker

Published: 27 November 2007

 

The Newcastle United chairman, Chris Mort, yesterday tried to give Sam Allardyce the club's full backing following Saturday's demoralising 3-0 home defeat to Liverpool, and the humiliating reaction of the home fans towards Allardyce. Mort's response to a question about supporting his manager in the long term came in the reply: "We would like to," which is different from saying, "We will."

 

The ambiguity in his answer will not reassure Allardyce and neither will Mort's opinion on the need for new signings in January to help address the present slump. "We need our team performing on the pitch as a unit," Mort said, "I don't think adding new players will necessarily sort that out."

....<Snip>

 

Not being funny, but what if Fred had said that bit in bold? I reckon World War III would have kicked pretty quickly with people on here banging on about him interfering in team affairs and talking about stuff that's nothing to do with him. Which would be true of course and which apply to Mort in this instance. Whether or not we need new players is one for the team manager to decide, not for Mort to decide.

 

i agree, but as you've said yourself, the board don't seem convinced by allardyce as he wasn't their appointment, so should they entrust him with big funds? we made that mistake with souness who blew £50m, very little of it spent wisely, which set us back in football terms as well as financially (decreasing future funds and increasing debt which ashley had to pay off so he has effectively paid the money for the likes of Owen). you could read mort's comments as saying 'it doesn't matter how much we let him spend, if he can't get the team playing well it will be money down the drain' - mort is perhaps suggesting tht the problems are down to Allardyce rather than the quality of the squad. i'm not saying we don't need more players, we're short when it comes to creativity and also lack a bit of athleticism/pace, but the question is, do you let Allardyce have the funds to sort it out in january or do you wait till the summer and a possible new manager?

 

i could well see mort and ashley give allardyce little backing in january then when they get a new managfer in the summer, give him a big kitty. the quotes in the papers today seem eerily like the dreaded 'vote-of-confidence', when mort was asked if he backed sam he said words to the effect of "i'd like to" not "i already do". so if allardyce doesn't turn it around quickly he could be out sooner than we think.

[madras]

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/premiership/article3198920.ece

 

Allardyce faces block on January arrivals

By Michael Walker

Published: 27 November 2007

 

The Newcastle United chairman, Chris Mort, yesterday tried to give Sam Allardyce the club's full backing following Saturday's demoralising 3-0 home defeat to Liverpool, and the humiliating reaction of the home fans towards Allardyce. Mort's response to a question about supporting his manager in the long term came in the reply: "We would like to," which is different from saying, "We will."

 

The ambiguity in his answer will not reassure Allardyce and neither will Mort's opinion on the need for new signings in January to help address the present slump. "We need our team performing on the pitch as a unit," Mort said, "I don't think adding new players will necessarily sort that out."

....<Snip>

 

Not being funny, but what if Fred had said that bit in bold? I reckon World War III would have kicked pretty quickly with people on here banging on about him interfering in team affairs and talking about stuff that's nothing to do with him. Which would be true of course and which apply to Mort in this instance. Whether or not we need new players is one for the team manager to decide, not for Mort to decide.

 

i agree, but as you've said yourself, the board don't seem convinced by allardyce as he wasn't their appointment, so should they entrust him with big funds? we made that mistake with souness who blew £50m, very little of it spent wisely, which set us back in football terms as well as financially (decreasing future funds and increasing debt which ashley had to pay off so he has effectively paid the money for the likes of Owen). you could read mort's comments as saying 'it doesn't matter how much we let him spend, if he can't get the team playing well it will be money down the drain' - mort is perhaps suggesting tht the problems are down to Allardyce rather than the quality of the squad. i'm not saying we don't need more players, we're short when it comes to creativity and also lack a bit of athleticism/pace, but the question is, do you let Allardyce have the funds to sort it out in january or do you wait till the summer and a possible new manager?

 

i could well see mort and ashley give allardyce little backing in january then when they get a new managfer in the summer, give him a big kitty. the quotes in the papers today seem eerily like the dreaded 'vote-of-confidence', when mort was asked if he backed sam he said words to the effect of "i'd like to" not "i already do". so if allardyce doesn't turn it around quickly he could be out sooner than we think.

i don't think it's so much the arsenal and blackburn games but the 4 after that. if we perform in those 4 as we have recently i don't think they'll be able to risk keeping him.

[TRon]

Fair comment from Mort imo. Allardyce has to earn backing right now, because he's brought a lot of his own players in and they're not doing it. We're not asking for miracles, just not the disgraceful performances of the last month and Mort is right, get them playing as a unit and we'll climb the table because we do have good players.

 

No point giving him loadsa money in the current situation, because it's not the ability of the players that is the problem at the moment.

 

My thoughts exactly. We have enough decent players to forge a team to get at least some results. No we aren't going to beat Arsenal, but we should be wiping the floor with some of the sides we've struggled against. Direct football won't work with these players so if he persists he's going to get himself sacked. Why should any Chairman trust his manager to keep spending if he can't show he's capable of managing his resources better?

[johnnypd]

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/premiership/article3198920.ece

 

Allardyce faces block on January arrivals

By Michael Walker

Published: 27 November 2007

 

The Newcastle United chairman, Chris Mort, yesterday tried to give Sam Allardyce the club's full backing following Saturday's demoralising 3-0 home defeat to Liverpool, and the humiliating reaction of the home fans towards Allardyce. Mort's response to a question about supporting his manager in the long term came in the reply: "We would like to," which is different from saying, "We will."

 

The ambiguity in his answer will not reassure Allardyce and neither will Mort's opinion on the need for new signings in January to help address the present slump. "We need our team performing on the pitch as a unit," Mort said, "I don't think adding new players will necessarily sort that out."

....<Snip>

 

Not being funny, but what if Fred had said that bit in bold? I reckon World War III would have kicked pretty quickly with people on here banging on about him interfering in team affairs and talking about stuff that's nothing to do with him. Which would be true of course and which apply to Mort in this instance. Whether or not we need new players is one for the team manager to decide, not for Mort to decide.

 

i agree, but as you've said yourself, the board don't seem convinced by allardyce as he wasn't their appointment, so should they entrust him with big funds? we made that mistake with souness who blew £50m, very little of it spent wisely, which set us back in football terms as well as financially (decreasing future funds and increasing debt which ashley had to pay off so he has effectively paid the money for the likes of Owen). you could read mort's comments as saying 'it doesn't matter how much we let him spend, if he can't get the team playing well it will be money down the drain' - mort is perhaps suggesting tht the problems are down to Allardyce rather than the quality of the squad. i'm not saying we don't need more players, we're short when it comes to creativity and also lack a bit of athleticism/pace, but the question is, do you let Allardyce have the funds to sort it out in january or do you wait till the summer and a possible new manager?

 

i could well see mort and ashley give allardyce little backing in january then when they get a new managfer in the summer, give him a big kitty. the quotes in the papers today seem eerily like the dreaded 'vote-of-confidence', when mort was asked if he backed sam he said words to the effect of "i'd like to" not "i already do". so if allardyce doesn't turn it around quickly he could be out sooner than we think.

i don't think it's so much the arsenal and blackburn games but the 4 after that. if we perform in those 4 as we have recently i don't think they'll be able to risk keeping him.

 

i agree, they're tough games and i don't think we'll come out of them looking too healthy. tho both souness and roeder got comfortable wins at ewood so you'd expect us to at least put in a good performance in that one. the brum game at home and fulham away are more likely opportunities to pick up points, but fulham can play very fluently and i fear they'll pass it around our static, slow, long-ball merchants, and we know what happened at home to birmingham last season.

[brummie]

Surely the chairman shouldn't really be commenting so extensively on matters  on the pitch?

 

Isn't his job to say little and just give the manager his backing?

[Keefaz]

Surely the chairman shouldn't really be commenting so extensively on matters  on the pitch?

 

Isn't his job to say little and just give the manager his backing?

 

To be fair to Mort: he's new in the job and is, I think, completely genuine. These snippets don't do him justice.

[Skirge]

http://www.journallive.co.uk/nufc/newcastle-united-news/2007/11/27/win-with-what-you-have-got-sam-told-61634-20164890/

 

It isvery interesting that all of a sudden Mort is starting to stand up to Sam and tell him whats what, and he is right they do need to play as a unit and if he cannot do that then why let him have cash but if your not giving him cash then why let him keep the job?