KK resigns - see OP for new club statement issued September 6th

[johnnypd]

I'm expected a new official club statement any time soon:

 

"It is a fact our dads are bigger than your dads so ner ner ner ner ner!"

 

ala Frankie Boyle:

 

"My dad'll shag yer dad....and yer dad'll enjoy it!"

 

Love Frankie Boyle, effing hilarious, but I think he tries too hard to be controversial sometimes. Anyway, that's a topic for another forum.

 

So Lien, what's your take on this affair from an outsider's perspective? Do you think there is any way back for Ashley after the events of this week? Also, looks like we may be in competition for the Indian billionaire.. Do fans/you want him at your club?

 

I don't know the fine details but from what I do know, this whole debacle comes down to the general structure, and the fact that the landscape is changing. In British football particularly, the manager is seen as an emotionally iconic figure, he calls the shots, he does this, he does that, he's boss. Sadly though, I'd say Ferguson is one of the few of those type that remain. Like it or not this continental organisational hierarchy seems to be becoming increasingly dominant in contemporary football. There's no doubt it can work, but it's a case of adapting to change. In my personal opinion, I prefer the "manager is boss" approach.

 

I think there is a way back for Ashley. He needs to do something about it bloody quickly though. Communication needs to improve (I've said that a fair few times summer with regards to Everton), and he needs to be open. More importantly, he should be putting everything else on hold (including getting rat-arsed in the Big Apple), to get this new manager in. Someone who obviously is used to this set up. Rijkaard, someone who is used to big expectations, would be a good choice, if acquirable.

 

This Ambani character seems an interesting proposition. The last week or so has been a sad week for football, for me at least. A lack of trust has dominated, and secondly it's becoming a rich man's world, as it were. As much as we all want ethics, we all want a nice guy who understands the club to be in charge of it, but really, it has to be about the money. Bill Kenwright at our club is what I'm talking about (despite the negative publicity he's got). Fact is, he's a so-called nice guy who loves the club desperately, and wants the best, but has openly admitted a billionare is needed. "We don't want a millionaire, we need a billionaire", to quote him. I'd want Anil Ambani at my club personally, as long as they have no say in the footballing side of it. I don't want money to dominate but is there another way of keeping up with the speed at which clubs are moving nowadays?

 

interesting post.

 

there's a couple of problems with getting in a big name manager like Rijkaard.

 

first is that we've shown we're not willing to spend, despite the fact that our turnover is greatly increased and premiership clubs are spending more than ever, we've gone the opposite way. no manager will be crawling on their knees to work at a club with a minimal budget, or, from what weve seen so far, at a club where they must break even.

 

the second is how will the manager be treated? if someone with as much sway as KK is overruled and treated like shit, anyone else can expect similar. will they fancy being sued for £2m on resigning from the club? or being told they can't even discuss transfers in public? it makes me think the club will deliberately appoint someone the fans cannot identify with or pinpoint as a charismatic leader, if only to avoid this sort of conflagration occuring the future.

 

even top continental managers expect to be their own man, that's why Benitez came to england "I asked for a lamp and they bought me a sofa" or words to that effect.

[mrmojorisin75]

I'm expected a new official club statement any time soon:

 

"It is a fact our dads are bigger than your dads so ner ner ner ner ner!"

 

ala Frankie Boyle:

 

"My dad'll shag yer dad....and yer dad'll enjoy it!"

 

Love Frankie Boyle, effing hilarious, but I think he tries too hard to be controversial sometimes. Anyway, that's a topic for another forum.

 

So Lien, what's your take on this affair from an outsider's perspective? Do you think there is any way back for Ashley after the events of this week? Also, looks like we may be in competition for the Indian billionaire.. Do fans/you want him at your club?

 

I don't know the fine details but from what I do know, this whole debacle comes down to the general structure, and the fact that the landscape is changing. In British football particularly, the manager is seen as an emotionally iconic figure, he calls the shots, he does this, he does that, he's boss. Sadly though, I'd say Ferguson is one of the few of those type that remain. Like it or not this continental organisational hierarchy seems to be becoming increasingly dominant in contemporary football. There's no doubt it can work, but it's a case of adapting to change. In my personal opinion, I prefer the "manager is boss" approach.

 

I think there is a way back for Ashley. He needs to do something about it bloody quickly though. Communication needs to improve (I've said that a fair few times summer with regards to Everton), and he needs to be open. More importantly, he should be putting everything else on hold (including getting rat-arsed in the Big Apple), to get this new manager in. Someone who obviously is used to this set up. Rijkaard, someone who is used to big expectations, would be a good choice, if acquirable.

 

This Ambani character seems an interesting proposition. The last week or so has been a sad week for football, for me at least. A lack of trust has dominated, and secondly it's becoming a rich man's world, as it were. As much as we all want ethics, we all want a nice guy who understands the club to be in charge of it, but really, it has to be about the money. Bill Kenwright at our club is what I'm talking about (despite the negative publicity he's got). Fact is, he's a so-called nice guy who loves the club desperately, and wants the best, but has openly admitted a billionare is needed. "We don't want a millionaire, we need a billionaire", to quote him. I'd want Anil Ambani at my club personally, as long as they have no say in the footballing side of it. I don't want money to dominate but is there another way of keeping up with the speed at which clubs are moving nowadays?

 

interesting post.

 

there's a couple of problems with getting in a big name manager like Rijkaard.

 

first is that we've shown we're not willing to spend, despite the fact that our turnover is greatly increased and premiership clubs are spending more than ever, we've gone the opposite way. no manager will be crawling on their knees to work at a club with a minimal budget, or, from what weve seen so far, at a club where they must break even.

 

the second is how will the manager be treated? if someone with as much sway as KK is overruled and treated like shit, anyone else can expect similar. will they fancy being sued for £2m on resigning from the club? or being told they can't even discuss transfers in public? it makes me think the club will deliberately appoint someone the fans cannot identify with or pinpoint as a charismatic leader, if only to avoid this sort of conflagration occuring the future.

 

even top continental managers expect to be their own man, that's why Benitez came to england "I asked for a lamp and they bought me a sofa" or words to that effect.

 

it is quite an interesting post from lien, and he's right in many ways about the changing landscape, be it right or wrong

 

a way back for ashley?  i say yes IF he appoints a big name manager now and makes a commitment (again) to back him financially and then follow through on it, but that means giving him until next year to back it up

 

in many ways ashley might have created a situation similar to that which shepherd ended up in - decent managers not wanting the job because of the way they've seen their colleagues treated

 

[Guest Heneage]

Im just watching Curry on Sunday Supplement, hes so far up Ashleys arse, justifying him wanting to sell Owen, then changing subject when someone said "Would Wenger and Ferguson stand for it?"

[Karjala]

This European system that keeps getting mentioned by the club as being the way forward, well its not for Arsenal, Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool who all have managers who decide which players come and go.

 

I'm sure Mourinho at Inter has absolutely nothing to do with transfers either, nice idea Ashley.

[indi]

Who has claimed 'Keegan had zero idea of the structure he was a part of'?

 

Ok, here's a selection of quotes, of which some are somewhat ambiguous I admit, but I think it's far from clear that everyone has always known that Keegan knew about Wise and the director of football position before taking the job.

 

We'll never know the whole story, but I wonder how much Keegan knows about Ashley's "vision" when he decided to take up the managerial post. Did Keegan know Wise would be brought in as director of football, or that he'll have little (if any) say in what players come in/out of the club? I doubt so, else I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have take up the post.

 

Keegan has technically become a facilitator rather than a manager, and how is he going to get the most out of players when his authority over them is undermined?

 

Walking out now is an emotional repsonse. We know Keegan's like that, and as someone mentioned, we like him because of his passion. But if I were him, I'd react the same if I feel my trust has been betrayed. In fact, the same thing happened to me in my work many years back, and it still hurts now.

 

It's not the best timing, might not even be the best option, but when you lose your trust in your employers, there isn't any point in staying around anymore.

 

 

 

I may be losing it, but picture this:

 

I wonder if this was all done on purpose by a fan of Spurs. "Avin a larf" with his mates Llambias et al in a Larndan boozer one night decides it would be a right larf to buy NUFC and then destroy it along with hurting it's fans by destroying a legendary manager in the process.

 

How would you do that?

 

1) Buy NUFC

2) Sack unpopular manager and recruit KK

3) Undermine KK by appointing a Director of Football in the form of an odious little runt, totally unqualified to do the role

4) Promise major new signings

5) Go back on promises

6) Sell players that are key to KK

7) Engage in discussions with KK

8) Leak a report to Sky that KK had told friends that had been sacked

9) Engage in more discussions with KK

10) Stand your ground and insist that Wise stays

11) Get your Chairman to write a letter to KK outlining that you're not prepared to meet any of his demands

...

KK left with no option to resign.

 

You couldn't make it up...

 

 

 

It's all very well talking about what flaws Keegan has but the fact of the matter is that he was brought to the club under false pretenses and was well within his rights to resign. The man has been used by this current board and that cannot be ignored and I for one don't want cunts like that in charge of the club.

 

I don't really give a toss about Wenger or Ferguson, the fact is Keegan was happy to take the job knowing the structure was in place just so he could get his feet under the table, now he's kicking off and issuing him or me ultimatums, he won't be doing that again in a hurry.

 

Yet again he's walked out on the club again and left us in the s***, for that he can go and f*** himself in future.

 

Wasn't the structure put in place after KK was appointed & KK knew nowt about it until Wise was taken on? KK had a discussion with Ashley prior to taking on the job; I doubt very much it went along the lines of "You'll be manager and you'll be given players by a Mr Wise".

 

I'm stunned that any fan can cut Ashley any slack on what has happened. The timing of KK leaving is a disaster & I'm bitterly upset that KK has left. Yes, we are left in the lurch but I'm not sure that KK could have stayed if Ashley wasn't prepared to budge on critical issues. The statement from the club is meaningless.

 

A serious question; do you believe that Ashley has the best interests of the club at heart, is here for the long term, understands the fans and will be prepared to put money into the transfer market? This is the man who not so long ago lost over 100 million spread betting on HBOS. He was willing to gamble Millions on the spreads but not invest in players we clearly needed..............

 

I've never trusted him as he's done nothing to deserve trust and loyalty. I hope he's only here until he can make his profit as it galls me every moment he is the owner of our club.

 

i bet they didnt tell KK in january, the director of football, would be a person of low esteem, and respect, who would come in and lay the the law down to him,  and show him no respect.

 

Fair enough IF Keegan was aware from the very start that he'd be working under a DOF, but for the club to go and hire Dennis cunting Wise for the job is ridiculous. Who in their right mind would think that masterstroke wouldn't get the manager's back up?

A DOF is generally an experienced, knowledgeable football man with a lot of influencial contacts in the game, not a man younger than the manager himself with a few years experience of lower league football management.

 

A statement designed to appease us that's only served to fan the flames even more. Incompetent fuckwits!

 

Now it is possible that I could have misread every single one of those comments, but I do think that some people were under the impression that Keegan knew nothing about Wise or the position he was going to hold (whatever you want to call it).

 

Anyway, I don't know why I've allowed myself to be sidetracked with this argument from the actual point of what I've been saying all along, which is that this is not black and white, there are no absolutes, both sides are in the wrong. I was only trying to use this to point out that people are being biased and intransigent in their viewpoints, something certain people seem to find it hard to admit. I've stupidly allowed those people to distract me from what I wanted to say by getting into a pointless and petty argument about a tiny little bit of what I was saying.

 

There are good arguments on both sides that are interesting to discuss, but many people are totally unwilling to give an inch, I've stupidly allowed myself to become one of those people and I'm going to stop now. So I'm no longer going to try and defend myself on this, people can make their own minds up about it, what they think is up to them. It's not important in the overall context of things and it's not essential to the argument I was trying to make, which I still believe to be correct.

[johnnypd]

i think it's obvious keegan wasn't aware of the full extent of the system, and how much he'd be overruled, undermined and ridiculed by his fellow 'team'. i think the full extent of this became clear in the final hours of the transfer window.

[indi]

if Modric was not on keegan's list why was he apparently so upset over it?

 

sounds like keegan had a decent list of targets, the likes of Modric, Guthrie, Dunne, Warnock, and was also pushing for a 'wow' signing like Lampard or Henry. and i must say, if it's true that either of them were keen to come here the board needs shooting for not pushing the deal through as either of those would be fantastic players to have here. I also remember he was keen on Deco, but the 'source' kindly refrains from mentioning his name, perhaps because he was superb value at £8m and is going to be such an obvious success and it would undermine their stance.

 

also seems like keegan was prepared to comprimise on targets whereas wise and co were not. for instance keegan listened to what scouts like Vetere said, went out and watched players like Gomis personally and made a judgement. in that case he felt Gomis (and Gomez?) weren't of the required standard, looks like he was right. and he's also agreed to check out others and bring them in. yet the board failed to go out and land anyone other than Guthrie who was an easy target as he was so cheap and had no other option but Bolton. even targets Keegan and Vetere seemed to have consensus on, the likes of Turan or Moutinho, who we'd both reported to have enquired about, were not followed up by Wise and Jiminez. probably because they asked for the going rate and our club is too stingy to spend a penny. this is where the problems seem to arise, and on the final days of the window, when he is hoping the club is doing what it can to bring the players he wants in, he finds out they've ignored what he wants, are bringing in players theyve never even discussed with Keegan, had the working relationship detoriate (to the point where they tell keegan to look on youtube - what a fucking cheek) and put the whole squad up for sale.

 

That's an interesting interpretation of events (this is the new conciliatory me now by the way), but it largely accepts the pro-Keegan propaganda that's appeared in the press and ignores the pro-board propaganda. I use the word propaganda because it's clear that everything we read in the papers and see on TV from here on in will have been put there by someone looking to forward the point of view of one side or the other, that's not to say that any of it is definitely untrue or not. Is there none of what's come out from the board side of things that you accept might be true? That's meant as a genuine question, I hope you can take it as such.

 

One thing that I'd pick you up on though is that the whole squad can't have been put up for sale, is it isn't possible as some of them had already moved once and couldn't do so again. That might seem picky, but if it wasn't the whole squad then the statement has no impact. Also, I'd have thought that it was pretty certain that the "whole squad up for sale" thing was a mischievous twisting of the "every player has his price" thing that Keegan accepted was true. I think I remember you picking someone up for doing something similar from the other point of view earlier in the thread, if it was you then you were right to do so, but the same thing applies here also.

 

Please accept all of the above in the way it was intended, ie as genuine questions and comments. I don't want to get into another petty argument with anyone, I hope it hasn't come across like I do.

[indi]

No, I am pointing out that it is specifically wrong for people to claim that Keegan had zero idea of the structure he was a part of. Nothing more nothing less.

 

I have not commented on whether Keegan was above or below Wise, that's an invention on your and some other's parts and shows that your ability to be rational has evaporated due to your passionate support of Keegan.

 

All I have been trying to do throughout this thread is attempt to get people to think about the situation logically and hold a balanced view. As the majority have totally bought into the Keegan is totally in the right, the board is totally in the wrong side of the argument that has necessitated asking questions of them in the main. The response of you and others like unbelievable! has been to ignore the fact that I have stated many times that I believe everyone to be at fault and label me as some kind of Ashley apologist, this is a somewhat immature thing to do and is reflected in the petty way you are questioning how old I am. For your information, the answer is almost certainly older than you, not that it's in any way relevant, other than to show that you're unable to have an adult argument without incorrectly and arrogantly assuming that anyone who disagrees with you must be a child. Irony is one of the things that amuses me the most on here so thanks for that, you've really cheered me up with that one.

 

That's about as much of a rise as you're going to get out of me, so I hope you enjoyed it.

Your example can't possibly show "logically" that Keegan knew precisely what kind of structure he was part of (then Wise reported to him, now he should report to Wise: those are two different structures). I'm showing that logically, your so-called "logic" is what in logic is called a non-sequitur. I questioned your age because, for all your talk of logic,  if you were 16 or less, you might be excused. Logic isn't what you think it is.

 

If your profile is correct, and you're 30, then there's no excuse for your bullshitting. Also, you're still younger than me.

 

If that'd been what I said then you'd have a point, as it wasn't you don't. Like I've just said though, I'm not going to continue this argument any more, if you want to think you've won it then fine, congratulations, I'm happy for you, enjoy your hollow victory. Goodbye.

[johnnypd]

i doubt the 'whole squad up for sale' thing is true either, but i expect the board had came in with different figures for different players and were prepared to do busines with various interested parties. combine this with the daft comment about 'resale' value and the fact we've spent nothing since Ashley arrived and it tells us a lot about the mindset of the current board.

 

i wouldnt believe anything the club are coming out with at the moment, they're on a smear campaign for no other reason than they can afford to be, fwiw. though with the Henry and Lampard thing, or looking at what Wise or Ashley said a few months or weeks back, i am using their own words which kind of contradict the thing about keegan's wishlist costing £200m, i think that's fairytale rubbish.

[Neil]

By the way, haven't been here for a while but is this the longest thread in NO history?

[Unbelievable]

Indi, fair play for digging up the old posts and I accept you may have been of the opinion this was unclear to some people even though I don't see it myself, but I'll let that be as you are right there are other intersting views to discuss and we know where we stand on this one.

 

Regarding the "whole squad up for sale" argument, I don't think that statement was factually correct. What I think may have happened is, as is being reported, is Keegan came in the office on deadline day or thereabouts for transfer discussions and found that the board had written down a price that they would find acceptable for every player in the squad, might an offer come in for said player on deadline day. Of course this is more a statement of "everybody is available at the right price" than "everybody is for sale", but I can see how this would have pissed Keegan off, because to him some players weren't available at any price due to it being impossible to find a suitable replacement considering there was hardly any time left and we are in no great position to attract top class players. If anything, the board may have been naive in doing this, but I don't think it was engineered to piss Keegan off, just the club saying if we receive an offer we consider too good to refuse we will take it (if it happened at all obviously). I can see both sides of the argument here, but what I find most amazing about this argument is how poorly both sides handled the situation. It should just have been a matter of Keegan stating the players he would find this agreement unacceptable for and the board accepting this stance. We will never know exactly if it even got that for and what exactly happened and who said what, so no point speculating really..

[colinmk]

Quote from: colinmk on September 04, 2008, 09:23:53 PM

It's all very well talking about what flaws Keegan has but the fact of the matter is that he was brought to the club under false pretenses and was well within his rights to resign. The man has been used by this current board and that cannot be ignored and I for one don't want cunts like that in charge of the club.

 

That's hardly me saying that he didn't have any idea about the structure. I'm going on direct quotes. He said he was aware that he would work with a director which turned out to be Wise. KK and Wise both said that KK was responsible for transfers and Wise would answer to KK. Ashley has also been quoted as saying that KK had the final say-so when it came to first team transfers. According to KK himself this turned out not to be the case and the board have now seemingly retracted from what they previously said too. I can see your point Indi about taking sides certainly but I have formed my opinion based on the sequence of events, quotes and contradictory statements from the board up to this point and unless KK has blatantly lied over and over again, including through the LMA I don't see how the blame can be put on his shoulders.

[Unbelievable]

By the way, haven't been here for a while but is this the longest thread in NO history?

 

I think we had the "realistic summer transfer targets" thread which surpassed 300 pages, but as it turns out in the end hardly any names mentioned in that thread have turned out to be ´realistic´..

[johnnypd]

Quote from: colinmk on September 04, 2008, 09:23:53 PM

It's all very well talking about what flaws Keegan has but the fact of the matter is that he was brought to the club under false pretenses and was well within his rights to resign. The man has been used by this current board and that cannot be ignored and I for one don't want cunts like that in charge of the club.

 

That's hardly me saying that he didn't have any idea about the structure. I'm going on direct quotes. He said he was aware that he would work with a director which turned out to be Wise. KK and Wise both said that KK was responsible for transfers and Wise would answer to KK. Ashley has also been quoted as saying that KK had the final say-so when it came to first team transfers. According to KK himself this turned out not to be the case and the board have now seemingly retracted from what they previously said too. I can see your point Indi about taking sides certainly but I have formed my opinion based on the sequence of events, quotes and contradictory statements from the board up to this point and unless KK has blatantly lied over and over again, including through the LMA I don't see how the blame can be put on his shoulders.

 

 

i think most of those quoted by indi will hold similar views.

[Mick]

The daft thing about the latest club statement is that they've actually confirmed what Keegan has complained about, they've shot themselves in the foot as we can all find direct quotes suggesting Keegan had final say and through the statement they've confirmed that the final say was taken from Keegan.

 

They are stupid beyond belief, I was angry when I first read the statement, now I just find it laughable and so unprofessional.

 

[Robster]

Would I be wrong to suggest that maybe some personaliities within the club were jealous of Keegan's popularity within the club ?

[Zero]

The daft thing about the latest club statement is that they've actually confirmed what Keegan has complained about, they've shot themselves in the foot as we can all find direct quotes suggesting Keegan had final say and through the statement they've confirmed that the final say was taken from Keegan.

 

They are stupid beyond belief, I was angry when I first read the statement, now I just find it laughable and so unprofessional.

 

 

Agree with that. I wonder who makes the statement,Ashley or Llambas?

[Mick]

 

Agree with that. I wonder who makes the statement,Ashley or Llambas?

 

It will be one of the two, not that it makes any difference as they both represent the way the club is being directed.  I'd put money on the LMA doing a screen print in case it goes missing.

[madras]

The daft thing about the latest club statement is that they've actually confirmed what Keegan has complained about, they've shot themselves in the foot as we can all find direct quotes suggesting Keegan had final say and through the statement they've confirmed that the final say was taken from Keegan.

 

They are stupid beyond belief, I was angry when I first read the statement, now I just find it laughable and so unprofessional.

 

 

Agree with that. I wonder who makes the statement,Ashley or Llambas?

aren't they saying that keegan never really had the final word and he knew that from the start ?

[madras]

they've both lied and spinned. unfortunatly the truth is probably in the contract and that could well mean legal proceedings.

[NG32]

Its going to get very messy.

[Baggio]

Is that right the club set up a meeting after keegan walked out to see what they could change about the club to get him back?

 

Didn't even bother turning up.

[Guest Chubby Jason]

Is that right the club set up a meeting after keegan walked out to see what they could change about the club to get him back?

 

Didn't even bother turning up.

Where did you hear this?

[Baggio]

Is that right the club set up a meeting after keegan walked out to see what they could change about the club to get him back?

 

Didn't even bother turning up.

Where did you hear this?

 

They were talking about it on the Sunday Supplement this morning.

[Robster]

Is that right the club set up a meeting after keegan walked out to see what they could change about the club to get him back?

 

Didn't even bother turning up.

 

Doesnt appear to be a FACT so I would say no