mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Out of interest, how old are you? and when did you start going to matches? (I'm not being patronising here, just want to get an idea of where you are coming from, cheers). 33 was at games when i was a bairn (<8) albeit not big ones (15 or so)...in my time at toon games i've experienced all of the things madras describes at various places and spouted my venom at the police too, in the cold light of day i'm adult enough to see both sides of it you? Add 4 years or so, started going with my old man at the beginning of the eighties. I don't think there is anymore to add to this from me, I joined this thread knowing there had been cover-ups but unaware of the extent of these (I never knew the Chief police officer lied for a start). So i've gained a great deal in reading these posts, so cheers to Toonlass & Scouseman for their contributions. i joined this thread as i always do with what i grew up with; terrorism & football violence being two of the biggest things i remember during my formative years i remember the calls for justice on bloody sunday, i remember heysel & hillsborough, i remember violence between scotland & england when i was a tot, i remember the news talking about policemen getting concrete slabs dropped on their heads, i know what they did to the miners yet it's a failure of mine that i see context in everything would that i could read in plain black and white like a good historian should Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebolarama Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 link me up to the bit where i say he never lied, or none of the other policemen lied - it was an institutional birthright back then...lucky the liverpool fans weren't black or irish or things might have been worse erm... a couple of posts back you asked - 'can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please?' i've stated my case and you've stated yours and we both see no point in continuing then why are we? ...Because you asked me a question? sorry i'll be honest here and say i "perhaps" misunderstood the word propagation along these lines: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/propagate?view=uk i.e. propaganda...i was asking for the link to the SYP propaganda but what i got was the testimony from an enquiry of a man who admitted he lied to cover up a mistake, they are two different things You're quite thick aren't you, son? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 link me up to the bit where i say he never lied, or none of the other policemen lied - it was an institutional birthright back then...lucky the liverpool fans weren't black or irish or things might have been worse erm... a couple of posts back you asked - 'can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please?' i've stated my case and you've stated yours and we both see no point in continuing then why are we? ...Because you asked me a question? sorry i'll be honest here and say i "perhaps" misunderstood the word propagation along these lines: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/propagate?view=uk i.e. propaganda...i was asking for the link to the SYP propaganda but what i got was the testimony from an enquiry of a man who admitted he lied to cover up a mistake, they are two different things You're quite thick aren't you, son? son? how so? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I think I have said enough on this subject now. So therefore I just want to say that come April 15th I will spend a couple of minutes thinking about what happened and sending my prayers to everyone affected and hope that one day there will be justice for the 96. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest north shields lad Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 This is from an article in the times, its quite shocking and shows that the amount of fands on the leppings lane that day, meant it was actually BELOW capacity. Id say it throws the pathetic argument about loads of ticketless fans out the water. My précis of what happened using info taken from the HSE Report. Given all the debate and “opinions” expressed on numerous threads I wanted to post this. My guess is most have never taken the time to read the report, when you do, the cause becomes blindingly obvious. Turnstiles open.. 10,100 capacity through 7 turnstiles (The Kop End, 21,000 has 42 turnstiles) Fans start entering from before 12.55 at a steady rate. At 12.55 CCTV starts recording all fans entering through the 7 turnstiles which are all grouped in one bank. At 1.40 the rate increased markedly and then remains constant between 2.05 and 2.50. The rate increases to a peak at 2.55. The rate of admission was such that queues were forming as the rate of flow through the turnstiles was insufficient to cope with the numbers. The average capacity of the turnstiles was 660 people / hour. At 2.00, 2,000 people had been admitted, at 2.55 only 6,000 had been admitted via the turnstiles, 4,000 people are outside the turnstiles with the roar of the crowd as the team comes out on to the pitch. At 2.48 a gate adjacent the turnstiles was opened and 130 people admitted in single file. At 2.52 to 2.58 the same gate was opened again for 6 minutes, 1,800 to 2,000 people were admitted with less control. CCTV images show that while the gate was open for 5.5 minutes, fans walked, not rushed, into the ground. At 2.59 to 3.07 the same gate was opened again 8 minutes, 90 people were admitted in single file controlled manner. At 3.05 when the tragedy was occurring the best estimate of numbers in the end is 9,734 against a capacity of 10,100. Immediately on entering the ground in front of the supporters was a tunnel leading to two central pens, no stewarding was in place to direct fans so excessive numbers chose the obvious entrance. At the end of the 20 m long, 3.65m wide tunnel two pens were entered through apertures of under 6’ The designed capacities of the pens were calculated at 1015 and 1036, In reality the capacities should have been reduced as other factors were unsatisfactory, Once in the pens the weight of numbers behind would be such that there would be absolutely no chance of exiting against the flow. In previous years police had been placed at this central entrance tunnel to ensure they were not filled beyond capacity, once filled the gates would be closed and fans directed elsewhere, police officers were not deployed there on this occasion. The pens to either side of these two pens were significantly under capacity. Signage to indicate the alternative means of ingress was poor. From very careful analysis of photo’s taken at 3.05 it is estimated in pen 3 with a capacity of 1015 there were1576 souls and the density increased to the front of the pen. Pen 4 was concluded to be similarly over capacity. Given no means of escape because of the mesh perimeter fencing 96 people died. When finally opened the single 2’ 6” gate was unable to ease the problem quickly enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consortium of one Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I don't have a horse in this race but scouseman's post from the Taylor report says it all, to me. The police supervisor did not adequately prepare for the event and then reacted poorly when the crush started outside. It was poor planning that led up to the situation and poor decision that made it a matter of life or death. The police supervisor had the wherewithal to see the big picture as the situation enfolded. The fan, with a ticket or not, had only his own view, therefore an extremely narrow view of what was happening. Sure, one can say that the ticketless fan had a role in what happened but efficient police work would have and should have averted that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I think I have said enough on this subject now. So therefore I just want to say that come April 15th I will spend a couple of minutes thinking about what happened and sending my prayers to everyone affected and hope that one day there will be justice for the 96. Can't you leave the conversation after you've explained why you've blamed the police for failing to weed out ticketless fans when you're also claiming that ticketless fans had zero impact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I don't have a horse in this race but scouseman's post from the Taylor report says it all, to me. The police supervisor did not adequately prepare for the event and then reacted poorly when the crush started outside. It was poor planning that led up to the situation and poor decision that made it a matter of life or death. The police supervisor had the wherewithal to see the big picture as the situation enfolded. The fan, with a ticket or not, had only his own view, therefore an extremely narrow view of what was happening. Sure, one can say that the ticketless fan had a role in what happened but efficient police work would have and should have averted that. not only the ticketless fans but everyone who was outside the ground and tthought pushing at those in front would be a good idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I think I have said enough on this subject now. So therefore I just want to say that come April 15th I will spend a couple of minutes thinking about what happened and sending my prayers to everyone affected and hope that one day there will be justice for the 96. Can't you leave the conversation after you've explained why you've blamed the police for failing to weed out ticketless fans when you're also claiming that ticketless fans had zero impact. good point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I don't have a horse in this race but scouseman's post from the Taylor report says it all, to me. The police supervisor did not adequately prepare for the event and then reacted poorly when the crush started outside. It was poor planning that led up to the situation and poor decision that made it a matter of life or death. The police supervisor had the wherewithal to see the big picture as the situation enfolded. The fan, with a ticket or not, had only his own view, therefore an extremely narrow view of what was happening. Sure, one can say that the ticketless fan had a role in what happened but efficient police work would have and should have averted that. not only the ticketless fans but everyone who was outside the ground and tthought pushing at those in front would be a good idea. it would appear that some people actually think this is also the fault of the police. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Geordie Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Just bumping this. OP is worth a read, on such a day as this. RIP the 96. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Alan Hansen was really emotional on MOTD, obviously still hurts a lot. There is some harrowing stuff on the BBC from survivors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8210441.stm Company prints Hillsborough slur A sports store chain has overhauled its policy on personalising football shirts after one was sold bearing a slogan mocking the Hillsborough Disaster. Sports Direct printed a Manchester United top with "96" and "Not Enough" on, and an insult about Liverpudlians. The company apologised and said "with immediate effect" shirts would only be printed with current footballers' names and numbers on. The employee who took the order did not realise the insult, the firm added. A man paid £55 for the shirt, from one of the company's 470 stores, with the reference to the 96 Liverpool fans who died at the Hillsborough stadium on 15 April 1989. The supporters were crushed to death during Liverpool's FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest at the stadium in Sheffield. The insult came to light when images of the shirt were posted on the social networking site, Facebook. The man's Facebook page has since been shut down. Despite Sports Direct claiming the employee took the order "unknowingly", families of Hillsborough victims have said they are appalled. Chairman of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, Margaret Aspinall, whose 18-year-old son James died, said: "I think Sports Direct are worse than the guy who wanted it put on the back of his shirt. "Printing that message is like inciting trouble, it is an absolute disgrace and Sports Direct should be ashamed. "It's 20 years down the line and I don't believe it possible someone printing football shirts wouldn't know what the message meant. "Fans can go too far in their rivalry towards other clubs, and this is way over the line." The sports chain is owned by Newcastle United owner Mike Ashley. A company spokesman said: "As a result, Sports Direct has taken immediate action and changed the administration policy for printing football shirts across its store network." http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6811/shirtqjv.jpg YSB= You Scouse Bastards btw. What a dickhead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Considering some of the kids you see working in those places, fuck knows how they're supposed to know what that meant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 twats both the fans and the shop Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Liam Liam O Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Considering some of the kids you see working in those places, fuck knows how they're supposed to know what that meant. The comments by the spokeswoman are pretty stupid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinho lad Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 and to think that idiot paid 55 quid for it as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8210441.stm Company prints Hillsborough slur snip.. "It's 20 years down the line and I don't believe it possible someone printing football shirts wouldn't know what the message meant. /snip I just asked my son (aged 17) and daughter (aged 19) if they would "get" the significance of this t-shirt and both said no. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Libertine Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Considering some of the kids you see working in those places, fuck knows how they're supposed to know what that meant. The comments by the spokeswoman are pretty stupid. baffling comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Liverpool fans still haven't and never will learn the lessons of Hillsborough. While football in the UK changed their ways (fencing etc) as did the police (proper match training) the Liverpool fans feel blameless in all this and still attend matches in their thousands without tickets and force their ways in to grounds, even grounds on foreign soil where both the other factors we have improved on are governed by a totally different body; usually a much lesser one and more caution should be applied. They'll be the first to light a candle and have a cry at the fans they've lost, but also the first to deny any wrong doing on their part when they've in fact helped kill their own and cannot deal with their own actions. Biggest bunch of hypocritical arseholes in English football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 To be honest, would anyone apart from sick Manchester United fans get what that meant? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 The shirt is in bad taste, but nothing worse than what Liverpool fans say and sing about the plane crash. So fuk em, fuk the lot of em. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Liverpool fans still haven't and never will learn the lessons of Hillsborough. While football in the UK changed their ways (fencing etc) as did the police (proper match training) the Liverpool fans feel blameless in all this and still attend matches in their thousands without tickets and force their ways in to grounds, even grounds on foreign soil where both the other factors we have improved on are governed by a totally different body; usually a much lesser one and more caution should be applied. They'll be the first to light a candle and have a cry at the fans they've lost, but also the first to deny any wrong doing on their part when they've in fact helped kill their own and cannot deal with their own actions. Biggest bunch of hypocritical arseholes in English football. You just have to look at what happened at the Champions League Final a couple of years ago when Liverpool fans STILL barged their way through the gates, many without tickets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Lol Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 The comment I think Sports Direct are worse than the guy who wanted it put on the back of his shirt. made by the Chairman of the Hillsborough Family Support Group is simply ridiculous. I reckon the majority of the people working in the shops wouldn't have a clue as the meaning of the message. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Liverpool fans still haven't and never will learn the lessons of Hillsborough. While football in the UK changed their ways (fencing etc) as did the police (proper match training) the Liverpool fans feel blameless in all this and still attend matches in their thousands without tickets and force their ways in to grounds, even grounds on foreign soil where both the other factors we have improved on are governed by a totally different body; usually a much lesser one and more caution should be applied. They'll be the first to light a candle and have a cry at the fans they've lost, but also the first to deny any wrong doing on their part when they've in fact helped kill their own and cannot deal with their own actions. Biggest bunch of hypocritical arseholes in English football. You just have to look at what happened at the Champions League Final a couple of years ago when Liverpool fans STILL barged their way through the gates, many without tickets. Yep. Going as low as stealing tickets off each other, one a young disabled kid IIRC. Fuking animals. No respect for them, certainly no sympathy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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