Who is the best player in the world?

[Segun Oluwaniyi]

Was the average standard of footballer in the 1960's really better than it is at the present? I would doubt that.

[cp40]

Messi has been the best for 3 or 4 years,Pele was for over 10 year,amongst greater competion too.Best,Charlton,Eusebio etc.

 

You could argue Messi has Best, Rooney, Kaka, Ronaldo as competition over the upcoming years.

 

Kaka is on a downward spiral now and Rooney and Ronaldo aren't as good as the likes of Garrincha, Best , Eusebio and Charlton. Keegan

 

 

fixed

 

[Tooj]

Was the average standard of footballer in the 1960's really better than it is at the present? I would doubt that.

 

It's a shame that they weren't the average standard though.

[Segun Oluwaniyi]

Was the average standard of footballer in the 1960's really better than it is at the present? I would doubt that.

 

It's a shame that they weren't the average standard though.

billytray was saying Pele was doing it against better competition, but that is simply untrue. The standard of football was worse, the defending was worse, and players were less athletic. Tactics were less developed as well. It is ridiculous to say any from the 60's faced better competition than those in top leagues currently.

[Tooj]

Was the average standard of footballer in the 1960's really better than it is at the present? I would doubt that.

 

It's a shame that they weren't the average standard though.

billytray was saying Pele was doing it against better competition, but that is simply untrue. The standard of football was worse, the defending was worse, and players were less athletic. Tactics were less developed as well. It is ridiculous to say any from the 60's faced better competition than those in top leagues currently.

 

They faced harsher defences who were much more brutal. Tactics less developed? That was the era of Catenaccio and teams played with all kinds of formations. Now all you seem to see is 4-4-2/4-5-1. I totally agree about the general fitness of players, that's where the modern game has fallen, too much emphasis on the physical side of things.

[Village Idiot]

It's undeniably more effective though, I think that flair players able to make their stamp in the current age of physical football deserve some merit. I have also seen a few 1960s games here and there (mostly Spanish league of the time but some World Cups, etc...) and the standard of defending looks pretty awful, almost no pressure, defenders allowing attackers an awful lot of space.

 

But it's also wrong to dismiss 1960s footballers for the lack of physicality of football in that era, since we can't know what would have they become if the same modern training methods were available to them.

 

 

[Dinho lad]

Messi has been the best for 3 or 4 years,Pele was for over 10 year,amongst greater competion too.Best,Charlton,Eusebio etc.

 

You could argue Messi has Best, Rooney, Kaka, Ronaldo as competition over the upcoming years.

 

Kaka is on a downward spiral now and Rooney and Ronaldo aren't as good as the likes of Garrincha, Best , Eusebio and Charlton.

 

erm...how old are you??

[Tooj]

Messi has been the best for 3 or 4 years,Pele was for over 10 year,amongst greater competion too.Best,Charlton,Eusebio etc.

 

You could argue Messi has Best, Rooney, Kaka, Ronaldo as competition over the upcoming years.

 

Kaka is on a downward spiral now and Rooney and Ronaldo aren't as good as the likes of Garrincha, Best , Eusebio and Charlton.

 

erm...how old are you??

 

I'm 25. Yet I've been collecting old football matches for at least a decade so I can safely say I've seen enough to give a valid opinion.

[Tooj]

It's undeniably more effective though, I think that flair players able to make their stamp in the current age of physical football deserve some merit. I have also seen a few 1960s games here and there (mostly Spanish league of the time but some World Cups, etc...) and the standard of defending looks pretty awful, almost no pressure, defenders allowing attackers an awful lot of space.

 

But it's also wrong to dismiss 1960s footballers for the lack of physicality of football in that era, since we can't know what would have they become if the same modern training methods were available to them.

 

 

 

Spot on.

[cp40]

Messi has been the best for 3 or 4 years,Pele was for over 10 year,amongst greater competion too.Best,Charlton,Eusebio etc.

 

You could argue Messi has Best, Rooney, Kaka, Ronaldo as competition over the upcoming years.

 

Kaka is on a downward spiral now and Rooney and Ronaldo aren't as good as the likes of Garrincha, Best , Eusebio and Charlton.

 

erm...how old are you??

 

I'm 25. Yet I've been collecting old football matches for at least a decade so I can safely say I've seen enough to give a valid opinion.

 

 

You seen any of the re-runs of the Big Match on Men motors. from the 70s...been off work for a few weeks now , some of the football is terrible and the pitches were a fking disgrace.

[tmonkey]

Hat-trick v Real Madrid at 19 (I think he was)?

 

Yes.

 

He would also have played in the 2006 CL final (at 18 years!) if he hadn't been injuried.

 

I think that proves he can do it in big games, also scored a header which is amazing in itself, but he did it in the Champions League final v Man utd...

 

It does, but only to a limited extent. Some points I'd like to make:

 

1) Madrid haven't had a genuinely good team since 2003. Nor have they been a stable club since Del Bosque's sacking donkey years ago. They're not the top team in a big stage in a high stake competition being referred to here.

 

2) This was merely a domestic league fixture, even if one of the highest profile in that category. It's one that happens at least twice a year, every year, as part of a long season. I don't think it's as big a stage or as significant as a CL final/semi-final, and certainly not a World Cup, no matter what the fans would like to think or what the players may say. The stakes just aren't very high in terms of the bigger picture, it's 3 points at the end of the day plus a bit of pride, unless it's the final game of the season and a title deciding one (which it never is, and what it would need to be to be remotely comparable to the other competitions mentioned).

 

3) He scored a header, yes, but how does that count as him playing his best in these biggests of games? As stated before, in the 3 games against ManU, Chelsea home and Chelsea away last year, he was marked and shut out, and struggled to do what he did all season long against lesser teams, i.e. beat players with ease and score goals/provide assists. I'm not expecting him to run riot against teams of this calibre, but would he manage to shine if his team were struggling? Would he be able to carry his team at this level?

 

As a further example, take the World Cup 2006 semi-final between France and Brazil. The wonderful Ronaldinho failed to shine when it mattered, when it was expected of him almost - this was widely regarded to be a career defining game for Ronaldinho, it was meant to be "his" World Cup so to speak if he was to establish himself as one of the best players ever. Instead, an old, aging Zidane, a few hours away from retirement and some years beyond his best, did what was expected of his opposite number, and completely outshone 'the pretender' and grabbed the limelight. One could argue as per point 1) above that Brazil were s*** that tournament, but I'm not really using this game to say Zidane was great or that the performance proved he was a big game player - I'm merely pointing out the contrast between a great player who failed to "do it" when his team needed him, and a great player who managed to do it successfully for a number of years. The line is fine as you could point to various instances of fantastic games by Ronaldinho and say "but he was great here, or fantastic there", but the brilliance failed to materialise when it mattered the most for his team, and that's where the line is for me. Messi needs to stand up and be counted when he inevitably (and hopefully) ends up in games of this magnitude against the best out there, whem his team needs inspiration from him. So far he hasn't done it, despite being the best player in the world.

[Shak]

Messi is in the form of his life at the moment, but he still has a lot to do to be considered an all time great, even if he's spectacular right now. Last year for example he had a great season overall but was completely shut out by Chelsea and ManU in the big CL games, whereby he was a marked man and reduced to a few good touches mixed in with the odd dribble attempt (plus of course a headed goal). Iniesta on the other hand was the one to truly stand up on the big stage and display his talent.

 

To compete with the likes of Maradona, he needs to do it on the big stage against the top players, which is what the all-time greats did in their respective eras. Running riot against Valencia and Stuttgart isn't the same as carrying an average team to World Cup glory for example. Zidane (imo) is the only modern day player who can be said to have met these performance requirements (with the "real" Ronaldo also doing it for a few years prior to injury), in many of the big games for both club and country he stood out and played his natural creative game irrespective of who he was up against, with the opposition being unable to prevent him doing so.

 

If Messi can continue the current performance levels right up until after the World Cup ends, then yeah, he'll be one of the best players ever. If he gets shut out on the big stage and becomes quiet like he has been in the past, then he'll merely be (arguably) the best player in the world at the moment, much like Ronaldinho was a few years earlier, Rivaldo before him, so on and so forth.

 

People seem to forget that Maradona had two other World Cups in his prime where he came nowhere near reaching the form of that admittedly amazing '86 performance.

 

'82 he got a couple of goals in an easy win in the first round, then did nothing else bar get sent off for kicking out at a Brazilian.

 

'90 he didn't score a single goal in the whole tournament.

 

Of course I do realise that Messi still has to go out and do it on the World Cup stage, but he's not even had a go at that yet. The worst display of management I have ever seen pretty much meant Argentina went out before he got a chance in the last World Cup.

 

And while I can't say I saw an awful lot of Napoli games in the late 80's, but I'd imagine Maradona had his off-days for them as well, he did only manage 5 goals in 25 appearances in European football for them after all.

 

With modern football the way it is, we get to see pretty much every game Messi plays and it's much easier to find flaws and point out bad games that he has. Nobody on this forum saw Maradona that much. I'm sure if they did they'd be able to say that he had days where things just wouldn't go for him, or he was marked out of the game, or he just flat out played poorly.

 

Not trying to downplay how good Maradona was, or say that Messi is on course to eclipse him just yet, but I just wonder if maybe people see the Youtube videos and the '86 World Cup tape and think that this was what Maradona did every single time he stepped out on the pitch. Cos I really doubt that it was.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Messi.

 

As close to a pure natural gifted Footballer we'll see in a long time. I'd say he's better then Maradona, possibly even the best of all time.

[Incognito]

Messi has been the best for 3 or 4 years,Pele was for over 10 year,amongst greater competion too.Best,Charlton,Eusebio etc.

 

You could argue Messi has Best, Rooney, Kaka, Ronaldo as competition over the upcoming years.

 

Kaka is on a downward spiral now and Rooney and Ronaldo aren't as good as the likes of Garrincha, Best , Eusebio and Charlton.

 

Plus you had Di Stefano,Puskas,Moore and Beckenbauer around too,a far greater collection of world class players,over Pele's career.

[Guest neesy111]

how the fuck is stevie g 2nd  :kinnear:

[Jamie]

Rewknee

[Guest palnese]

how the fuck is stevie g 2nd  :kinnear:

 

This thread from last March. Gerrard was shit hot back then.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I think I can now safely say that Messi is already the best player I've seen in my lifetime. Before him it was the Original Ronaldo.

[Hughesy]

Love the way how people have seen the odd highlight of Pele and Maradona, or at best a few full matches, can make remarks about Messi.

[Cronky]

All three players had this great acceleration and change of direction, combined with great close control of the ball. It's hard to separate the three.

 

But certainly I'd say Messi already stands comparison with the all-time greats. He also has this wonderful appetite for the game, always getting involved and making things happen.

 

 

[Guest palnese]

I think I can now safely say that Messi is already the best player I've seen in my lifetime. Before him it was the Original Ronaldo.

 

Add Zidane to that list, and you're spot on.

[Guest firetotheworks]

fwiw (bearing in mind I wasn't around when Maradona was at his best) From what I can see Maradona looks to me from what I've seen as the best of all time, that goes for what I've seen, what he achieved, and the stats.

 

But from what I've seen in my lifetime, first hand. I would say it can only be between Messi, Original Ronaldo, and Zidane. And I think Messi is already the best, which should be insane at this stage, but really isn't.

[GuyP]

fwiw (bearing in mind I wasn't around when Maradona was at his best) From what I can see Maradona looks to me from what I've seen as the best of all time, that goes for what I've seen, what he achieved, and the stats.

 

But from what I've seen in my lifetime, first hand. I would say it can only be between Messi, Original Ronaldo, and Zidane. And I think Messi is already the best, which should be insane at this stage, but really isn't.

 

Football is played at a faster pace nowadays (so we are told anyway) and thus I think players develop quicker and for a peak for a player to be at the age of 23 or whatever is maybe a developing trend. Im not saying Messi will never play better, but id say it has something to do with him hitting such amazing form so early into his career. If he maintains this until he is in his late 20's for example, that would be godlike...

[AliGupter]

fwiw (bearing in mind I wasn't around when Maradona was at his best) From what I can see Maradona looks to me from what I've seen as the best of all time, that goes for what I've seen, what he achieved, and the stats.

 

But from what I've seen in my lifetime, first hand. I would say it can only be between Messi, Original Ronaldo, and Zidane. And I think Messi is already the best, which should be insane at this stage, but really isn't.

 

Football is played at a faster pace nowadays (so we are told anyway) and thus I think players develop quicker and for a peak for a player to be at the age of 23 or whatever is maybe a developing trend. Im not saying Messi will never play better, but id say it has something to do with him hitting such amazing form so early into his career. If he maintains this until he is in his late 20's for example, that would be godlike...

 

It is obscene how much quicker it is, if you ever get a chance watch footage of a match from the 60s or so, honestly if Newcastle played England's 1966 World Cup winning team, Newcastle would win about 20-0, it would just be embarrassing, football has changed a lot, for the better (in the way it's played at least).

[Guest palnese]

I remember the first time I saw a clip from Peles days. I could not believe my own eyes, as the pace of the game was slower than a walking Geremi.