Diving (and how England players get away with it)

[Mr. Snrub]

Sorry if this has been discussed to the death tonight, just in from pub and really think a new thread is in order.

 

It's not just after today (fair play to the ref for booking Rooney at OT  for that, a lot of refs lwould have caved), I was reading the sun all week in work and on, I think it was wednesday there was an article about N'Gog and "the dive that shamed anfield," it really made my blood boil.

 

This, after Gerrard made an astonishing dive at Blackburn the Saturday before, but of course it was swept under the rug and nothing was said.  Anyone who watches football regularly and/or has access to youtube knows that this is far from the first time, infact he's one of the worst in the business.  Whuch brings me to his Engand team mate, Rooney. That's at least his 3rd booking for diving tonight. (Was anything said on MOTD, I didn't see it.)  2 players who come out and regularly slam play acting, but in reality ae awful for it.

 

Basically, as most people on here are English, I'd lik to see your opinions.  Do you think it's an easy excuse and straight out xenophobia blaming foreigners?  Or do you actually think it is the foreign players badly influnceing the same? Would you like to see them being shown video replays in post match interviews and being asked to explain themselves?  Grill their false antics infront of the nation?

 

Why do the UK's top rags never call the English players on it?  Are they falling from the same xenophobic tree, or are they just afraid of being snubbed from interviews A La Fergie?

 

 

[Keefaz]

I think foreigners brought more diving to the English game and are seen as the cause of it, tbh.

[jdckelly]

because their england footballers

[Guest firetotheworks]

Its probably because over the years the media have all so vehemently insisted that its because of those pesky foreigners, and they have an image of it being skillful wingers who do it and not players like Gerrard and Rooney. They cant work it out other than to say those players are cheaters, and they'll never say that.

[M4]

I think one of the reasons that adds to English players getting away with it more is that they hardly never then stay down pretending to be injured.

 

I would really prefer for English and England players to adhere to a higher moral code. I like to watch Gerrard play and Rooney is my favourite active player but it's very disheartening seeing them dive. Wish they would basically follow what they say with their actions.

 

Don't think it's xenophobic to say foreign players have brought diving into our game, it's pretty much fact. But there should certainly be no discrimination in handing out 3 match bans after the fact if the refs miss it.

 

FIFA and UEFA need to get their fingers out too instead of openly letting it go on for years.

[Jayson]

Its the whole idea that Foreigners bring it in that makes our media emphasize them doing it. When ours do it it doesnt fit with the idea that we're the victims having to deal with other countries & their players cheating ways, so they tend to go quiet over it. It is pretty consistantly Gerrard and Rooney for us mainly, Owen has the odd dive also. Dont think the rest are to bad.

[bigfella]

I think one of the reasons that adds to English players getting away with it more is that they hardly never then stay down pretending to be injured.

 

I would really prefer for English and England players to adhere to a higher moral code. I like to watch Gerrard play and Rooney is my favourite active player but it's very disheartening seeing them dive. Wish they would basically follow what they say with their actions.

 

Don't think it's xenophobic to say foreign players have brought diving into our game, it's pretty much fact. But there should certainly be no discrimination in handing out 3 match bans after the fact if the refs miss it.

 

FIFA and UEFA need to get their fingers out too instead of openly letting it go on for years.

 

 

I guess you didn't see Franny Lee play then?

[kingkerouac]

I recall an interview with Gianluca Vialli a few years ago, where he was saying that 'cheating' i.e. diving, feigning/exaggerating injury etc were all part of a European footballers armoury. Players who were good at hoodwinking the ref were seen as 'skilled'

I suppose on the other side of the coin, a lot of foreign players complain about the overly violent, crunching tackles in the british game, which we claim are what makes it a 'mans' game' but they regard as cheating.

 

Swings and roundabouts.

 

 

 

 

 

[Cronky]

There are so many questions of degree here. I don't think many English players dive when they haven't been touched at all, or roll around in agony to get a player sent off. You are more inclined to see that with foreign players.

 

What you do see is English players go over at contact when they could at least try to stay on their feet, or make runs which deliberately cause contact to take place when they could avoid it. Some situations are more blatant than others and it's virtually impossible for refs to get it right all the time.

 

I wouldn't criticise the likes of Rooney because everybody (with only one or two exceptions) is doing it. The lesson for defenders is to get the ball or don't make the challenge.

 

One of the exceptions is Heskey, who always tries to stay on his feet despite being hacked and pushed all over the place. I find myself shouting at him to fall over ffs.

[Delima]

I recall an interview with Gianluca Vialli a few years ago, where he was saying that 'cheating' i.e. diving, feigning/exaggerating injury etc were all part of a European footballers armoury. Players who were good at hoodwinking the ref were seen as 'skilled'

I suppose on the other side of the coin, a lot of foreign players complain about the overly violent, crunching tackles in the british game, which we claim are what makes it a 'mans' game' but they regard as cheating.

 

Swings and roundabouts.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

Let's face it - diving is diving, cheating is cheating. As in any competition rules will be bent to the utmost and every advantage will be sought to gain that extra head. Cheating will always happen - different countries will have different cultures of cheating. Some cheat by being overly violent, some cheat feigning foul.

 

In this competitive society it is impossible to inculcate culture of integrity. We cannot eradicate cheating unless we have a complete overhaul of human culture - which is most obviously impossible. The most sensible means / the best / the easiest way would be to have clear unambiguous rules and penalise squarely all offenders. It is still easier said than done though - to be objective you need to remove emotions. However if you remove emotions where are all the funs ?

[Dave]

There are so many questions of degree here. I don't think many English players dive when they haven't been touched at all, or roll around in agony to get a player sent off. You are more inclined to see that with foreign players.

 

What you do see is English players go over at contact when they could at least try to stay on their feet, or make runs which deliberately cause contact to take place when they could avoid it. Some situations are more blatant than others and it's virtually impossible for refs to get it right all the time.

 

I wouldn't criticise the likes of Rooney because everybody (with only one or two exceptions) is doing it. The lesson for defenders is to get the ball or don't make the challenge.

 

One of the exceptions is Heskey, who always tries to stay on his feet despite being hacked and pushed all over the place. I find myself shouting at him to fall over ffs.

 

 

Apart from last year when he conveniently fell over just as he got into our box, meaning Bassong got sent off and they got a penalty.

[Guest firetotheworks]

As a side note, I dont like how it feels like you should applaud a player because they've stayed on their feet. I remember when it was just a given.

[GG]

I recall an interview with Gianluca Vialli a few years ago, where he was saying that 'cheating' i.e. diving, feigning/exaggerating injury etc were all part of a European footballers armoury. Players who were good at hoodwinking the ref were seen as 'skilled'

I suppose on the other side of the coin, a lot of foreign players complain about the overly violent, crunching tackles in the british game, which we claim are what makes it a 'mans' game' but they regard as cheating.

 

Swings and roundabouts.

 

Yeah but Vialli is one of the most despicable men to have ever lived.

[Keefaz]

I recall an interview with Gianluca Vialli a few years ago, where he was saying that 'cheating' i.e. diving, feigning/exaggerating injury etc were all part of a European footballers armoury. Players who were good at hoodwinking the ref were seen as 'skilled'

I suppose on the other side of the coin, a lot of foreign players complain about the overly violent, crunching tackles in the british game, which we claim are what makes it a 'mans' game' but they regard as cheating.

 

Swings and roundabouts.

 

Yeah but Vialli is one of the most despicable men to have ever lived.

 

Wore some lovely pullovers.

[M4]

I guess you didn't see Franny Lee play then?

 

One example... the point I was making was about a quasi norm being created by a high amount of players.

[Geordie Boot Boy]

Diving is a way to get a competitive edge for your team. We want our players to put in everything they can to get a result for the team, yet some want their players to potentially  limit their own contribution by refusing to dive. I can understand why it seems like you should be dead against it but it really is a situation of either nobody does it or everyone (who wants to get ahead) does it.

 

I agree with the OP comment that the England players consistently get away with it in the press. Personally, I do see it as lazy xenophobia TBH. And it's not just Rooney and Gerrard either, e.g. John Terry pressurising referees is a form of cheating isn't it? Just about every team in the country tries that one though (professional and amateur). That actually bothers me more than the diving.

[dustynrg]

You have to realise that the journos (with a few notable exceptions) are not football fans per se, they take on England as their team and know everything about them, inside leg measurement, fave breakfast cereal, names of all their children and generally know little (and more importantly) have little interest in teams that are outside the top 4 (too hard rememebering all the names in the teams - UNLESS they play for England).

 

So they have a huge interest in keeping those England players sweet (hence the wankfest over Owen's hat trick midweek) and cannot POSSIBLY accuse any of them of diving. I even heard one today say that whether Rooney dived was "a matter of opinion" WTF!!!!!!!! If it had been an Eduardo he would have been foaming at the mouth in anger.

 

So in other words, it's self interest - pure and simple. They need to interview Rooney and Gerrard and Owen etc to make a living and therefore have to disappear up their respective arses and NEVER criticise them. And Xenophobia comes into it, let's face it journos on the whole are a bunch of right wing little Englanders and most probably secretly hate ANY pesky foreigner, how dare he come and steal jobs from our brave English footballers.

[juniatmoko]

because it less theatrical... less than 30 sec strolling on the pitch holding his knee.

[Pilko]

One of the exceptions is Heskey, who always tries to stay on his feet despite being hacked and pushed all over the place. I find myself shouting at him to fall over ffs.

 

http://www.laughfc.co.uk/zimages/heskeylator.jpg

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Diving is my worst pet hate by far, as far as I'm concerned it's disgusting and there is absolutely no excuse for it. It has been allowed to spread through the game basically because accusing people of cheating is seen a something that shouldn't happen (even when they obviously are).

 

Because of the reluctance to accuse people, from referees, and the lack of support they have from their superiors, the only way I can see to address this is to review videos and punish people after the match.

 

I would appoint an independent committee to look at top level games and hand out punishments, and they would have the absolute backing of the powers at be in football.

 

I'd also like to see managers calling out their own players and ceasing to excuse their behaviour, but that will never happen.

[Neil]

Diving is my worst pet hate by far, as far as I'm concerned it's disgusting and there is absolutely no excuse for it. It has been allowed to spread through the game basically because accusing people of cheating is seen a something that shouldn't happen (even when they obviously are).

 

Because of the reluctance to accuse people, from referees, and the lack of support they have from their superiors, the only way I can see to address this is to review videos and punish people after the match.

 

I would appoint an independent committee to look at top level games and hand out punishments, and they would have the absolute backing of the powers at be in football.

 

I'd also like to see managers calling out their own players and ceasing to excuse their behaviour, but that will never happen.

 

Agreed. The problem will not go away without consistent action, and hard action at that. Talking about it and saying how it's wrong will get us nowhere. It's a dirty trait in the game that takes away a lot of what football should be about.

 

The key debate is whether we should take action within the game (red cards?) or have action taken afterwards. The latter would be easier, through the medium of an independent committee as you have suggested, but it won't be much consolation to the side that is cheated out of a win/draw.

[Neil]

Also, what annoys me most about diving is when it is done by top quality players. Gerrard, Drogba et al really don't need to dive. They're strong enough with enough quality to not have to do it.

 

(Of course, Gerrard is my most hated example. The way he's almost timing when to do them and ensure the ref is looking disgusts me.)

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Diving is my worst pet hate by far, as far as I'm concerned it's disgusting and there is absolutely no excuse for it. It has been allowed to spread through the game basically because accusing people of cheating is seen a something that shouldn't happen (even when they obviously are).

 

Because of the reluctance to accuse people, from referees, and the lack of support they have from their superiors, the only way I can see to address this is to review videos and punish people after the match.

 

I would appoint an independent committee to look at top level games and hand out punishments, and they would have the absolute backing of the powers at be in football.

 

I'd also like to see managers calling out their own players and ceasing to excuse their behaviour, but that will never happen.

 

Agreed. The problem will not go away without consistent action, and hard action at that. Talking about it and saying how it's wrong will get us nowhere. It's a dirty trait in the game that takes away a lot of what football should be about.

 

The key debate is whether we should take action within the game (red cards?) or have action taken afterwards. The latter would be easier, through the medium of an independent committee as you have suggested, but it won't be much consolation to the side that is cheated out of a win/draw.

 

Yeah, I would rather do it within the game but the refs would need to know that they had total support in handing out a lot of yellow cards at first. Also, that would put a lot of responsibility, and probably abuse, on the shoulders of individuals.

 

I know doing it after the game wouldn't help the cheated teams directly, but we need to look at the bigger picture. Everyone would benefit eventually from the reduction in diving.

 

The weirdest thing is that there doesn't seem to be any recognition of the problem in the game or a real desire to address it.

 

 

[Guest float one in]

SHearer sometimes used to go down like a sack of taties towards the end of his career. It would usually be when he was receiving the ball with his back to goal, defender challenges him from behind. For such a strong bloke (we all saw him bully centre halves much bigger than him on countless occasions) I was always disappointed to see him hit the deck so easily and then get up wailing at the ref. However it was always a foul, by the letter of the law, so the other side of the coin is that if he didn'tgo down he'd have been a mug, cos it's unlikely that the ref would have given those fouls. I wouldn't call SHearer a cheat-as I said, they were all fouls, so it wasn't diving as such-but I have to admit that this constitutes a bit of a grey area in my hero worship....

[Neil]

SHearer sometimes used to go down like a sack of taties towards the end of his career. It would usually be when he was receiving the ball with his back to goal, defender challenges him from behind. For such a strong bloke (we all saw him bully centre halves much bigger than him on countless occasions) I was always disappointed to see him hit the deck so easily and then get up wailing at the ref. However it was always a foul, by the letter of the law, so the other side of the coin is that if he didn'tgo down he'd have been a mug, cos it's unlikely that the ref would have given those fouls. I wouldn't call SHearer a cheat-as I said, they were all fouls, so it wasn't diving as such-but I have to admit that this constitutes a bit of a grey area in my hero worship....

 

Smart play really. Big difference between getting in between opponent and ball so as to be very confident the player will have to foul you in order to get the ball. It's not however healthy for it to come to the point of players just playing to fall over as opposed to not even try to stay on their feet. That's when it gets embarrassing.