Guest BlacknWhiteArmy Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I thought he did pretty well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 (directed at Heza09) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fumiste Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Try to look at this video ben arfa vs valenciennes and you'll see why hatem likes Backheels Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmael Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 People w*** over him too much. He is world class, but needs to keep things simple to look world class. If Angel gabriel did that people would spit their bovril at him. If you think this then you don't understand the role Ben Arfa is playing. I understand perfectly. It's no excuse though - you play pretty football and run at people in the final third, not the centre of the park - that's where you keep it simple. Depends on the situation really, but I do agree in general. However, your comments seemed to imply that he had to 'keep things simple' all over the pitch, which was why I strongly disagreed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 People w*** over him too much. He is world class, but needs to keep things simple to look world class. If Angel gabriel did that people would spit their bovril at him. If you think this then you don't understand the role Ben Arfa is playing. I understand perfectly. It's no excuse though - you play pretty football and run at people in the final third, not the centre of the park - that's where you keep it simple. Depends on the situation really, but I do agree in general. However, your comments seemed to imply that he had to 'keep things simple' all over the pitch, which was why I strongly disagreed. Fair dues. I'm not a Hatem hater like ftr - just think he needs to prove himself to us still. We know he's talented, but he's not flawless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fumiste Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Is it difficult to realise that he is just not ready yet? He needs to play...even if he doesn't look good enough.... Without these poor games , he won't be able to reach his level.... Am i wrong??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He came on for 45 minutes and went missing for the first half hour of it, also while I realise he suffered a serious injury he needs to stop fannying out of tackles. Utter rubbish. He created an immediate link between the midfield and attack and our shape immediately looked better after he came on. As madras has said, if he lost the ball a couple of times when dribbling, that was as much to do with the lack of movement in front of him than because he was greedy. If there's a pass on he will make it. He was hardly in the game at all and even some of the crowd were getting pissed off with him losing it. The lack of movement thing is a way of blaming everyone else for his failures, look at Marveaux for example when he came on, how many times did he lose the ball? Hardly any and the reason for that is he knows when to play it simple, knows when to play one touch football and knows when to try something more extravagant. Ben Arfa on the other hand prefers to hold on to it rather than playing the simple ball far too much, he isn't going to get great movement in front of him because he's picking it up too far up field on most occasions and he's only got one striker in front of him instead of two as he's taking up one of the positions unlike when he played on the wing, there was also occasions yesterday when Ryan Taylor pulled wide unmarked where if he was played in he could get a ball into the box yet was ignored by HBA who preferred to double back and attempt to take someone else on. Clearly a talented player but I'm going to need some convincing he can offer us enough playing off one striker, that includes goals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Is it difficult to realise that he is just not ready yet? He needs to play...even if he doesn't look good enough.... Without these poor games , he won't be able to reach his level.... Am i wrong??? No one has said he is shit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 (directed at Heza09) See you in Brussels xxx Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He needs to keep fannying out of tackles TBH, that should be a major part of his game. Exactly,obviously not everything but there are certain tackles you cant win,and you having been in possession of the ball previously doesn't change that. As I said in another thread,plenty of people at the match who don't understand the game,they've either never played or can't remember it. We've been crying out for a creative player for ages,don't piss and moan at him for trying to be creative and don't expect 50/50's to be one of his strong points. All of those challenges yesterday he had a good chance of winning or drawing the freekick, I don't buy this jumping out of the way is a good thing and if you don't you don't understand the game. I don't remember seeing Beardsley jump out of the way of challenges in the middle of the park that he had a chance of winning and the same goes for most players in this country, why is it that Ben Arfa should be exempt from challenging for the ball when it's there to be won? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He came on for 45 minutes and went missing for the first half hour of it, also while I realise he suffered a serious injury he needs to stop fannying out of tackles. Utter rubbish. He created an immediate link between the midfield and attack and our shape immediately looked better after he came on. As madras has said, if he lost the ball a couple of times when dribbling, that was as much to do with the lack of movement in front of him than because he was greedy. If there's a pass on he will make it. He was hardly in the game at all and even some of the crowd were getting pissed off with him losing it. The lack of movement thing is a way of blaming everyone else for his failures, look at Marveaux for example when he came on, how many times did he lose the ball? Hardly any and the reason for that is he knows when to play it simple, knows when to play one touch football and knows when to try something more extravagant. Ben Arfa on the other hand prefers to hold on to it rather than playing the simple ball far too much, he isn't going to get great movement in front of him because he's picking it up too far up field on most occasions and he's only got one striker in front of him instead of two as he's taking up one of the positions unlike when he played on the wing, there was also occasions yesterday when Ryan Taylor pulled wide unmarked where if he was played in he could get a ball into the box yet was ignored by HBA who preferred to double back and attempt to take someone else on. Clearly a talented player but I'm going to need some convincing he can offer us enough playing off one striker, that includes goals. Sums it up at the minute. Cant understand as well if he's so desperate for match time why he is not using the reserves as Marveaux did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He came on for 45 minutes and went missing for the first half hour of it, also while I realise he suffered a serious injury he needs to stop fannying out of tackles. Utter rubbish. He created an immediate link between the midfield and attack and our shape immediately looked better after he came on. As madras has said, if he lost the ball a couple of times when dribbling, that was as much to do with the lack of movement in front of him than because he was greedy. If there's a pass on he will make it. He was hardly in the game at all and even some of the crowd were getting pissed off with him losing it. The lack of movement thing is a way of blaming everyone else for his failures, look at Marveaux for example when he came on, how many times did he lose the ball? Hardly any and the reason for that is he knows when to play it simple, knows when to play one touch football and knows when to try something more extravagant. Ben Arfa on the other hand prefers to hold on to it rather than playing the simple ball far too much, he isn't going to get great movement in front of him because he's picking it up too far up field on most occasions and he's only got one striker in front of him instead of two as he's taking up one of the positions unlike when he played on the wing, there was also occasions yesterday when Ryan Taylor pulled wide unmarked where if he was played in he could get a ball into the box yet was ignored by HBA who preferred to double back and attempt to take someone else on. Clearly a talented player but I'm going to need some convincing he can offer us enough playing off one striker, that includes goals. Sums it up at the minute. Cant understand as well if he's so desperate for match time why he is not using the reserves as Marveaux did. Why is he not using them? Don't you mean Pardew? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 (directed at Heza09) See you in Brussels xxx Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattynufc Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Reading the last couple of pages the general feeling is Ben Arfa needs more time. Then I go into the Obertan thread and Pardew gets critiscised for saying he needs more time. Fickle? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 (directed at Heza09) See you in Brussels xxx November 31st lolza... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He came on for 45 minutes and went missing for the first half hour of it, also while I realise he suffered a serious injury he needs to stop fannying out of tackles. Utter rubbish. He created an immediate link between the midfield and attack and our shape immediately looked better after he came on. As madras has said, if he lost the ball a couple of times when dribbling, that was as much to do with the lack of movement in front of him than because he was greedy. If there's a pass on he will make it. He was hardly in the game at all and even some of the crowd were getting pissed off with him losing it. The lack of movement thing is a way of blaming everyone else for his failures, look at Marveaux for example when he came on, how many times did he lose the ball? Hardly any and the reason for that is he knows when to play it simple, knows when to play one touch football and knows when to try something more extravagant. Ben Arfa on the other hand prefers to hold on to it rather than playing the simple ball far too much, he isn't going to get great movement in front of him because he's picking it up too far up field on most occasions and he's only got one striker in front of him instead of two as he's taking up one of the positions unlike when he played on the wing, there was also occasions yesterday when Ryan Taylor pulled wide unmarked where if he was played in he could get a ball into the box yet was ignored by HBA who preferred to double back and attempt to take someone else on. Clearly a talented player but I'm going to need some convincing he can offer us enough playing off one striker, that includes goals. Sums it up at the minute. Cant understand as well if he's so desperate for match time why he is not using the reserves as Marveaux did. Why is he not using them? Don't you mean Pardew? I mean quite a few keep saying he needs more games to get fit. If thats the case why isnt he playing in the reserves? Obviously he was down to play the other week and then went to Tunisia instead. Seems either a strange decision by Pardew or who knows, maybe a french strop? Regardless, it seems daft. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He needs to keep fannying out of tackles TBH, that should be a major part of his game. Exactly,obviously not everything but there are certain tackles you cant win,and you having been in possession of the ball previously doesn't change that. As I said in another thread,plenty of people at the match who don't understand the game,they've either never played or can't remember it. We've been crying out for a creative player for ages,don't piss and moan at him for trying to be creative and don't expect 50/50's to be one of his strong points. All of those challenges yesterday he had a good chance of winning or drawing the freekick, I don't buy this jumping out of the way is a good thing and if you don't you don't understand the game. I don't remember seeing Beardsley jump out of the way of challenges in the middle of the park that he had a chance of winning and the same goes for most players in this country, why is it that Ben Arfa should be exempt from challenging for the ball when it's there to be won? The first part of the post up to the comma I consider to be untrue. I'm not gonna defend him or the way he plays on here because it'll go on for ages,you've obviously yet to be convinced by him but in my opinion we're a much better team with him,including him ducking out of a few challenges (let's not forget he's just coming back from a double leg break) My comments on people not understanding the game are related to attacking players being allowed to lose the ball within reason,something that alex ferguson has said is the key to a good team,not to ducking out of tackles (which in my opinion yesterday was a result of him trying to attack Wigan) Robert and Ginola didn't exactly get stuck in. I wouldn't waste your time being upset with ben Arfa for not crunching into tackles,you may as well be upset with Steve Taylor for making the odd daft tackle,it's part of his game that's not gonna change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He needs to keep fannying out of tackles TBH, that should be a major part of his game. Exactly,obviously not everything but there are certain tackles you cant win,and you having been in possession of the ball previously doesn't change that. As I said in another thread,plenty of people at the match who don't understand the game,they've either never played or can't remember it. We've been crying out for a creative player for ages,don't piss and moan at him for trying to be creative and don't expect 50/50's to be one of his strong points. All of those challenges yesterday he had a good chance of winning or drawing the freekick, I don't buy this jumping out of the way is a good thing and if you don't you don't understand the game. I don't remember seeing Beardsley jump out of the way of challenges in the middle of the park that he had a chance of winning and the same goes for most players in this country, why is it that Ben Arfa should be exempt from challenging for the ball when it's there to be won? The first part of the post up to the comma I consider to be untrue. I'm not gonna defend him or the way he plays on here because it'll go on for ages,you've obviously yet to be convinced by him but in my opinion we're a much better team with him,including him ducking out of a few challenges (let's not forget he's just coming back from a double leg break) My comments on people not understanding the game are related to attacking players being allowed to lose the ball within reason,something that alex ferguson has said is the key to a good team,not to ducking out of tackles (which in my opinion yesterday was a result of him trying to attack Wigan) Robert and Ginola didn't exactly get stuck in. I wouldn't waste your time being upset with ben Arfa for not crunching into tackles,you may as well be upset with Steve Taylor for making the odd daft tackle,it's part of his game that's not gonna change. Robert and Ginola didn't play in the middle of the park either so that point is moot, if you're playing as a number 10 then you are expected to drop back and help the midfield when we don't have the ball, that includes challenging for the ball when you've got a chance of winning it instead of pulling away. Your comparison with Taylor tacklingdoesn't even make sense btw, also if you look back at the comments yesterday I did originally say "while I realise he suffered a serious injury he needs to stop fannying out of tackles." so I am aware he's had a serious injury. I'm not one to defend him just because he is a talented footballer, he needs to prove we're better off with him in this role and not buying another striker to replace him in the team in January. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormy Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He came on for 45 minutes and went missing for the first half hour of it, also while I realise he suffered a serious injury he needs to stop fannying out of tackles. Utter rubbish. He created an immediate link between the midfield and attack and our shape immediately looked better after he came on. As madras has said, if he lost the ball a couple of times when dribbling, that was as much to do with the lack of movement in front of him than because he was greedy. If there's a pass on he will make it. He was hardly in the game at all and even some of the crowd were getting pissed off with him losing it. The lack of movement thing is a way of blaming everyone else for his failures, look at Marveaux for example when he came on, how many times did he lose the ball? Hardly any and the reason for that is he knows when to play it simple, knows when to play one touch football and knows when to try something more extravagant. Ben Arfa on the other hand prefers to hold on to it rather than playing the simple ball far too much, he isn't going to get great movement in front of him because he's picking it up too far up field on most occasions and he's only got one striker in front of him instead of two as he's taking up one of the positions unlike when he played on the wing, there was also occasions yesterday when Ryan Taylor pulled wide unmarked where if he was played in he could get a ball into the box yet was ignored by HBA who preferred to double back and attempt to take someone else on. Clearly a talented player but I'm going to need some convincing he can offer us enough playing off one striker, that includes goals. Sums it up at the minute. Cant understand as well if he's so desperate for match time why he is not using the reserves as Marveaux did. Why is he not using them? Don't you mean Pardew? Nah. Bad attitude. Refusing to play in the reserves. Forgotten that 'family issue' just a couple of weeks ago? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Your main creative outlet is your main creative outlet,whether they are wide or through the middle,they're not commonly relied on for a lot of defensive work even though I'd probably say wide players are commonly expected to track back more than a play maker who plays off the striker. The only person who can tell us whether HBA is expected to track back and help for our team is Pardew,fwiw though I did see him getting back into positions to block passes yesterday and you can clearly see it on one passage of play on motd (I think for rodallega's late chance). There's been a lot of excitement about him and it seems like you're playing devils advocate which is your prerogative. The above stuff from both of us is all about opinions and I respect yours but I feel you're being a bit harsh on him. Imo he's twice changed the team for the better in the last two games,whilst losing the ball a bit. The Taylor comparison wasn't a direct one based on tackling,it was about weaknesses in a players game that aren't gonna change and accepting it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 As seems likely that the Idea is the 4-2-3-1 with HBA in the hole, I doubt he's meant to do much tracking back, since we are operating with 2 midfielders in the holding position, and even if Cabaye is attack minded he also does a lot of the defending, this gives us the extra cover to theoretically let HBA have a freer role, as opposed to operating a 4-1-4-1 or something where you might be doing defence work further up or such. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudil Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I have no problem with Hatem losing the ball as he is always trying to do something positive, and that is exactly what we needed yesterday. However, I think Pardew is wrong to play him as a 10 as he does have the potential to damage ourselves there. I think he should play wide right of a 3 (with pretty much full freedom to drift) ala Messi a few years ago. I believe Rijkard did something similar with Ronaldinho when he took charge; recognising his extreme talent but also his ability to damage Barcas play by losing the ball in potentially dangerous areas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Your main creative outlet is your main creative outlet,whether they at wide or through the middle,they're not commonly relied on for a lot of defensive work even though I'd probably say wide players are commonly expected to track back more than a play maker who ays off the striker. The only person who can tell us whether HBA is expected to track back and help for our team is Pardew,fwiw though I did see him getting back into positions to block passes yesterday and you can clearly see it on one passage of play on motd (I think for rodallega's late chance). There's been a lot of excitement about him and it seems like you're playing devils advocate which is your prerogative. The above stuff from both of us is all about opinions and I respect yours but I feel you're being a bit harsh on him. Imo he's twice changed the team for the better in the last two games,whilst losing the ball a bit. The Taylor comparison wasn't a direct one based on tackling,it was about weaknesses in a players game that aren't gonna change and accepting it. I've never said he doesn't track back, I've mentioned shying away from challenges and if you're playing in the middle then you have to be going for these, Robert and Ginola didn't play in the middle so it didn't bother me them not making challenges, not that I can remember them jumping out of many anyway. How many other players playing in the withdrawn role do you see pulling out of challenges that are there to be won? Taylor's comparison doesn't work as while he does make the odd poor tackle he still makes the tackle, nobody expects Ben Arfa to win every challenge but I expect him to attempt him to win them. It's nothing to do with playing devils advocate but calling it how I see it, if he plays well he will get plenty of credit from me but if he's going missing for periods, shying away from challenges, losing the ball by holding on to it too long and trying daft back heels when we're fighting for a winner then I'll call him up on it. The same goes for everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I have no problem with Hatem losing the ball as he is always trying to do something positive, and that is exactly what we needed yesterday. However, I think Pardew is wrong to play him as a 10 as he does have the potential to damage ourselves there. I think he should play wide right of a 3 (with pretty much full freedom to drift) ala Messi a few years ago. I believe Rijkard did something similar with Ronaldinho when he took charge; recognising his extreme talent but also his ability to damage Barcas play by losing the ball in potentially dangerous areas. That's an excellent point, however is he worth dropping the current system for and do we have the players to make the change? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts