Guest fraser Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 As much as I love him, and as important as he is for us, long-term he is the odd man out in that midfield of ours. If we are to carry on the 3 up front or rather the 3 accross the forward line that is. Never assume anything. As much as I love him, and as important as he is for us, long-term he is the odd man out in that midfield of ours. If we are to carry on the 3 up front or rather the 3 accross the forward line that is. Playing wide left crosses for Cisse against Norwich. Knocks a lovely ball through for Ben Arfa for the first against WBA and has a really good game. Next match, left-back against Bellamy; does enough. The next match, back into midfield and is excellent throughout. A consummate professional. Not the most talented player I've seen for us but one of the very best. Can I assume you started following us in the Championship season? Or spent the duration of the last twenty years in an injury related comatose condition? I like Jonas very much and I think he is would be a wonderful player to keep around here for many years as a squad member due to his relentless work effort and versatility. However, he isn't actually incisive and threatening enough to play wide in a 4-3-3, he lacks the requisite close control and consistent passing to be a starter in central midfield, and he isn't up to par defensively as a leftback. Ideally, he would be a highly used reserve. Playing wide left crosses for Cisse against Norwich. Knocks a lovely ball through for Ben Arfa for the first against WBA and has a really good game. Next match, left-back against Bellamy; does enough. The next match, back into midfield and is excellent throughout. A consummate professional. Not the most talented player I've seen for us but one of the very best. Can I assume you started following us in the Championship season? Or spent the duration of the last twenty years in an injury related comatose condition? I like Jonas very much and I think he is would be a wonderful player to keep around here for many years as a squad member due to his relentless work effort and versatility. However, he isn't actually incisive and threatening enough to play wide in a 4-3-3, he lacks the requisite close control and consistent passing to be a starter in central midfield, and he isn't up to par defensively as a leftback. Ideally, he would be a highly used reserve. You can assume as you wish. 'He isn't actually incisive' - the ball for Ben Arfa for the first against West Brom. 'He isn't threatening' - the cross for Cisse against Norwich. 'He isn't up to par as a left back' - No s*** Sherlock, but he does it. Buffoon. You admit that he isn't up to par as a left back, but then mention two decent pieces of play that occurred as a left back as evidence of him being a good enough centre midfielder and wide forward? He isn't prolific at all in terms of goals and assists (except against Wolves). This is fine as a wide man in a defensive minded 4-4-2, and he has performed admirably in this role for us before. In the 4-3-3 we play now, all of the front three have to be goal threats, imo and he is not this. In the centre, I just don't think he really has the skill or physicality to consistently compete there. He can compensate for this at times (especially against inferior teams) because he does a lot of running, but this is not the best position for his abilities at all. He was not a left-back against WBA. You've lost this argument. You have no evidence to support your assertions, simply generalised remarks, whereas I've told you recent and relevant specifics; you cannot rebut them. I could go further back but it simply would not be worth it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
durhamunigeordie Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Think playing centrally in a 4-3-3 will be the making of him. As a footballer one of his main weaknesses is actually kicking the ball any distance. The ball seems to stick to his feet when dribbling and he is excellent at passing in triangles/the short passing game. Clearly can pick a killer pass as well (see his ball to Ben Arfa v West Brom and the ball to Cisse v Norwich). His work rate is second to none and so will never give the opposition central midfielders anytime on the ball. He could probably do a job man marking someone in there, thus allowing Tiote to break play up. He also knows how to win a foul. For me the 4-3-3 formation is perfectly suited to having Jonas in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smal Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 As much as I love him, and as important as he is for us, long-term he is the odd man out in that midfield of ours. If we are to carry on the 3 up front or rather the 3 accross the forward line that is. Who/what type of player would you want instead? I'd play Tiote, Guthrie and Cabaye ahead of Tiote, Jonas and Cabaye. Fair enough, disagree like as Cabaye and Guthrie are too similar IMO, better off having a bit of an allrounder in there like Jonas who provides something different. Guthrie and Cabaye being similar doesn't really matter when they're playing different positions. Tioté and Guthrie would sit behind Cabaye in our current formation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 As much as I love him, and as important as he is for us, long-term he is the odd man out in that midfield of ours. If we are to carry on the 3 up front or rather the 3 accross the forward line that is. Never assume anything. As much as I love him, and as important as he is for us, long-term he is the odd man out in that midfield of ours. If we are to carry on the 3 up front or rather the 3 accross the forward line that is. Playing wide left crosses for Cisse against Norwich. Knocks a lovely ball through for Ben Arfa for the first against WBA and has a really good game. Next match, left-back against Bellamy; does enough. The next match, back into midfield and is excellent throughout. A consummate professional. Not the most talented player I've seen for us but one of the very best. Can I assume you started following us in the Championship season? Or spent the duration of the last twenty years in an injury related comatose condition? I like Jonas very much and I think he is would be a wonderful player to keep around here for many years as a squad member due to his relentless work effort and versatility. However, he isn't actually incisive and threatening enough to play wide in a 4-3-3, he lacks the requisite close control and consistent passing to be a starter in central midfield, and he isn't up to par defensively as a leftback. Ideally, he would be a highly used reserve. Playing wide left crosses for Cisse against Norwich. Knocks a lovely ball through for Ben Arfa for the first against WBA and has a really good game. Next match, left-back against Bellamy; does enough. The next match, back into midfield and is excellent throughout. A consummate professional. Not the most talented player I've seen for us but one of the very best. Can I assume you started following us in the Championship season? Or spent the duration of the last twenty years in an injury related comatose condition? I like Jonas very much and I think he is would be a wonderful player to keep around here for many years as a squad member due to his relentless work effort and versatility. However, he isn't actually incisive and threatening enough to play wide in a 4-3-3, he lacks the requisite close control and consistent passing to be a starter in central midfield, and he isn't up to par defensively as a leftback. Ideally, he would be a highly used reserve. You can assume as you wish. 'He isn't actually incisive' - the ball for Ben Arfa for the first against West Brom. 'He isn't threatening' - the cross for Cisse against Norwich. 'He isn't up to par as a left back' - No s*** Sherlock, but he does it. Buffoon. You admit that he isn't up to par as a left back, but then mention two decent pieces of play that occurred as a left back as evidence of him being a good enough centre midfielder and wide forward? He isn't prolific at all in terms of goals and assists (except against Wolves). This is fine as a wide man in a defensive minded 4-4-2, and he has performed admirably in this role for us before. In the 4-3-3 we play now, all of the front three have to be goal threats, imo and he is not this. In the centre, I just don't think he really has the skill or physicality to consistently compete there. He can compensate for this at times (especially against inferior teams) because he does a lot of running, but this is not the best position for his abilities at all. I agree with Baba on this one. If we progress with the 4-3-3, I think he'll end up as a back-up utility player. His strength and athletic qualities will always be useful, but with that long stride of his he can be a bit clumsy and he doesn't pass the ball with the speed and precision that we need to aim for in midfield. He might be better off playing wide in the front three, but even then I think he'd struggle. I'm not saying he'd do a rubbish job. But wide in a 4-4-2 is where his ability is best used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudil Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnypd Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 if we stick with 3 in midfield i'd hope we are looking for an upgrade on Jonas in the summer, especially if Guthrie wants out. Jonas would end up playing most games anyway even as a utility man, bit like Raylor has this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segun Oluwaniyi Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 As much as I love him, and as important as he is for us, long-term he is the odd man out in that midfield of ours. If we are to carry on the 3 up front or rather the 3 accross the forward line that is. Never assume anything. As much as I love him, and as important as he is for us, long-term he is the odd man out in that midfield of ours. If we are to carry on the 3 up front or rather the 3 accross the forward line that is. Playing wide left crosses for Cisse against Norwich. Knocks a lovely ball through for Ben Arfa for the first against WBA and has a really good game. Next match, left-back against Bellamy; does enough. The next match, back into midfield and is excellent throughout. A consummate professional. Not the most talented player I've seen for us but one of the very best. Can I assume you started following us in the Championship season? Or spent the duration of the last twenty years in an injury related comatose condition? I like Jonas very much and I think he is would be a wonderful player to keep around here for many years as a squad member due to his relentless work effort and versatility. However, he isn't actually incisive and threatening enough to play wide in a 4-3-3, he lacks the requisite close control and consistent passing to be a starter in central midfield, and he isn't up to par defensively as a leftback. Ideally, he would be a highly used reserve. Playing wide left crosses for Cisse against Norwich. Knocks a lovely ball through for Ben Arfa for the first against WBA and has a really good game. Next match, left-back against Bellamy; does enough. The next match, back into midfield and is excellent throughout. A consummate professional. Not the most talented player I've seen for us but one of the very best. Can I assume you started following us in the Championship season? Or spent the duration of the last twenty years in an injury related comatose condition? I like Jonas very much and I think he is would be a wonderful player to keep around here for many years as a squad member due to his relentless work effort and versatility. However, he isn't actually incisive and threatening enough to play wide in a 4-3-3, he lacks the requisite close control and consistent passing to be a starter in central midfield, and he isn't up to par defensively as a leftback. Ideally, he would be a highly used reserve. You can assume as you wish. 'He isn't actually incisive' - the ball for Ben Arfa for the first against West Brom. 'He isn't threatening' - the cross for Cisse against Norwich. 'He isn't up to par as a left back' - No s*** Sherlock, but he does it. Buffoon. You admit that he isn't up to par as a left back, but then mention two decent pieces of play that occurred as a left back as evidence of him being a good enough centre midfielder and wide forward? He isn't prolific at all in terms of goals and assists (except against Wolves). This is fine as a wide man in a defensive minded 4-4-2, and he has performed admirably in this role for us before. In the 4-3-3 we play now, all of the front three have to be goal threats, imo and he is not this. In the centre, I just don't think he really has the skill or physicality to consistently compete there. He can compensate for this at times (especially against inferior teams) because he does a lot of running, but this is not the best position for his abilities at all. He was not a left-back against WBA. You've lost this argument. You have no evidence to support your assertions, simply generalised remarks, whereas I've told you recent and relevant specifics; you cannot rebut them. I could go further back but it simply would not be worth it. Alright, boss. I've honestly never had the other party in an argument tell me that I've lost and expect that to end things. "Evidence"? How am I meant to refute three things that physically happened? Do you want me to go watch tapes of the matches and point out situations where he hasn't produced a chance from a threatening position, played clumsily in midfield, or was inadequate at leftback? If you want evidence of his lack of goal threat, he's scored less than ten goals in four years. You cannot definitively win a football argument by citing past examples of singular plays made by a player, this is not how the game works given its cooperative and fluid nature. All we can actually do is make inferences and "generalised remarks" about what we believe and what we have seen. I don't think he is at all ideal as a starter in a 4-3-3 for a number of reasons (that I've listed above). I think this a much better support for a football conversation than three specific sequences of play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 A lot of succesful teams will have that player in the side who isn't the most technically gifted but is massively important because of their relentless workrate and top attitude. Like Kuyt, Park, Fletcher etc.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STM Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 On the Jonas debate. This is what good sides have, hard working, versitile, honest players. You need the Gutierrez's of the world, as much as you need the Ben Arfa's, they just won't get as many headlines. Man Utd have won many a trophy because of this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Jonas is a brilliant player to have, when on form can give defenders a bad day, but otherwise has a perfect attitude and work rate and if not terrorising defence is a reliable passer who knits team together. Also obviously well loved in dressing room. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakie Doke Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Very good at alleviating pressure as well. Isn't he the most fouled player in the Prem? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 As much as I love him, and as important as he is for us, long-term he is the odd man out in that midfield of ours. If we are to carry on the 3 up front or rather the 3 accross the forward line that is. Who/what type of player would you want instead? I'd play Tiote, Guthrie and Cabaye ahead of Tiote, Jonas and Cabaye. Fair enough, disagree like as Cabaye and Guthrie are too similar IMO, better off having a bit of an allrounder in there like Jonas who provides something different. Guthrie and Cabaye being similar doesn't really matter when they're playing different positions. Tioté and Guthrie would sit behind Cabaye in our current formation You still lack that player who has the ability to pick up the ball in central areas and drive forward with it though. Also with Guthrie/Cabaye I don't believe the former has the ability to interchange whereas we know Jonas/Cabaye can if the coaching staff wanting to mix it up during the game. Jonas playing also gives us the option of moving to a 4-4-2 if needed too, something that Guthrie doesn't really offer. Anyway, it may well be a moot point if Guthrie is off in the summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 I don't get the problem with Jonas. I understood in the past because of the much talked about end product debate. But this season he's chipped in more, his crossing is much improved, he's even more diligent in his defensive duties, and what you expect from him, you get. A player that never stops, is very good with possession, wins free kicks, relieves pressure, puts the opposition under pressure, is incredibly versatile, has an eye for a pass and fits a lot of formations. He's not perfect, but he's one of the players that's an absolute given to start imo. Indispensable at times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest H09 Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 He was doing some South American diving against Swansea, just saying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 As opposed to some English diving? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayno Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Get the feeling he will become even more of an utility player next season Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakie Doke Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 http://s8.postimage.org/hgy9ucqkl/jonasgutierezgoals.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I think central midfield is his best position and he's been waiting years for someone to unlock that potential. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I think central midfield is his best position and he's been waiting years for someone to unlock that potential. His best performances this season have been in the middle, impossible to fault his work ethic and his passing was essential. Ever since chalkboards went down anyone know where one can get stats over specific players? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Funny one this. I think he played well today but didn't catch the eye in the way his does in his usual role out wide Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Thought he was great today, feels like theres less pressure on him to deliver when he's not on the wing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikky Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I think central midfield is his best position and he's been waiting years for someone to unlock that potential. His best performances this season have been in the middle, impossible to fault his work ethic and his passing was essential. Ever since chalkboards went down anyone know where one can get stats over specific players? We have finally found his best position: I just love watching him as a CM: Gives Cabaye licence to be the playmaker Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikky Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Funny one this. I think he played well today but didn't catch the eye in the way his does in his usual role out wide He caught my eye: I thought he was immense [i know what you mean though - i.e he kept or made things tick in a simple way] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 It was like having two Tiotes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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