Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Incognito]

Low centre of gravity like Maradona.

When he's won a World Cup and a League title in 3 countries,you can compare him to Diego Maradona.Like Felipao says,Argentines don't rank him above Maradona yet,and they won't until a WC is won.

[Ocho]

To score 52 goals in Spain is immense.  If he can come to the Premier League and score 40+ goals then he truly will be amongst the best ever.

 

Although to score so many is such a feat, I can't help to think that Barca and Real dominate that league so much that the amount scored isn't as impressive when you look further into it.

 

Barca and Real lead 3rd place by 17+ points and Real beat 3rd place Valencia 6-3 away from home.

 

[mrmojorisin75]

Low centre of gravity like Maradona.

When he's won a World Cup and a League title in 3 countries,you can compare him to Diego Maradona.

i have big problems with this as the way to judge messi against the greats

 

(i) Maradona might have carried Argentina to a WC but let's face it he had 10 other competent players (some great) around him when he did it and manager that wasn't total batshit crazy - how the fuck can you judge Messi on the two world cups he's played in is beyond me.  One manager left him on the bench at the critical moment when he could have proven himself yet he had to sit and watch them limp out, the other was Maradona who contrived to fuck up the whole tournament for them 'cause he's apeshit mental.

 

(ii) What would coming to England and Italy and winning the title prove?  He's doing it where it counts, in the Champions League against his peers from around Europe.  If he left Spain he'd only end up moving to Chelsea or Man City and they'd piss the league with him in it.  I mean if he went to Liverpool this summer and they won the title you might have a point.  Same goes for Italy, he ain't moving to Napoli anytime soon is he?  Football has changed man.

 

He does it where and when it counts, in Champions League semi's & finals, in the league & CL week in week out with relentless efficiency.

 

The biggest test he's likely to face, being 23, is what happens in say 5 years time when Xavi, Puyol, Villa etc. are all gone and likely not replaced by the same class of player.  Can he then win them the same prizes and score with the same regularity?  Will he be able to step in and dominate games like Xavi does?

 

Unless Argentina get a sensible fucking manager the lad hasn't got a chance of "winning them" a world tbh.

[mrmojorisin75]

To score 52 goals in Spain is immense.  If he can come to the Premier League and score 40+ goals then he truly will be amongst the best ever.

 

Although to score so many is such a feat, I can't help to think that Barca and Real dominate that league so much that the amount scored isn't as impressive when you look further into it.

 

Barca and Real lead 3rd place by 17+ points and Real beat 3rd place Valencia 6-3 away from home.

 

 

It's not 52 only in Spain is it?  Pretty sure it includes CL goals which is 11 (?) for him this season?

[Fugazi]

To score 52 goals in Spain is immense.  If he can come to the Premier League and score 40+ goals then he truly will be amongst the best ever.

 

Although to score so many is such a feat, I can't help to think that Barca and Real dominate that league so much that the amount scored isn't as impressive when you look further into it.

 

Barca and Real lead 3rd place by 17+ points and Real beat 3rd place Valencia 6-3 away from home.

 

 

It's not 52 only in Spain is it?  Pretty sure it includes CL goals which is 11 (?) for him this season?

 

Aye

[Flip]

I'd love to see Pele in his prime in the Premier League.  Don't reckon he'd score any more than 20 goals a season.  Todays game is just so much more technical and stamina based.

 

To score 52 goals in Spain is immense.  If he can come to the Premier League and score 40+ goals then he truly will be amongst the best ever.

 

Ill raise all in with i'd love to see how Pele would've developed would he had the chance to develop during this era. Pele was just incredibly talented.

 

And like I stated before Messi has a long way to be considered better than Maradona in his own country. Even Di Stefano guys you forget, the guy won 5 Champions Leagues, 13 Championship in 3 different countries and still isn't considered better than Garrincha who won two world cups (one on his own just like Maradona).

[mrmojorisin75]

Thinking more about that, how did Maradona fair in the European Cup, don't think he won it right?  Does that mean that Messi's achievements in the CL (which is ostensibly harder to win in the new format, but it's arguable) overshadow Maradona there, and if so how are the two weighted if he wins another CL this years and XX amount more before he's finished? 

 

He's already won more domestic titles than Maradona hasn't he?  Or will have by the end of this season.

[Ocho]

To score 52 goals in Spain is immense.  If he can come to the Premier League and score 40+ goals then he truly will be amongst the best ever.

 

Although to score so many is such a feat, I can't help to think that Barca and Real dominate that league so much that the amount scored isn't as impressive when you look further into it.

 

Barca and Real lead 3rd place by 17+ points and Real beat 3rd place Valencia 6-3 away from home.

 

 

It's not 52 only in Spain is it?  Pretty sure it includes CL goals which is 11 (?) for him this season?

 

Yeah, that's right.  I take it back

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I think the only way to compare players is to watch them. Everything like goals, assists, trophies won is too influenced by the team and their team mates.

 

All I know is Messi is frightening for his age, and young enough to continue to get better.

[Flip]

I think the only way to compare players is to watch them. Everything like goals, assists, trophies won is too influenced by the team and their team mates.

 

All I know is Messi is frightening for his age, and young enough to continue to get better.

 

Cannot agree with the first part. Sure its influenced by teammates and so on, but Messi, Maradona, Zidane, Pele, and the rest of the real greats were all able to do it on their own when needed to.

 

Pele was sublime for 12 years. Won everything he could possibly win, this under an era when there was no protection from the referee. In '66 he was beaten the crap out of him.

Maradona could decide the game with magic, that goal in 86 taking on the whole english team is just magnificient.

Messi has proven it too a couple of times that he can decide a game on his own.

Zidane has done it plenty of times too.

 

The truth is you cannot compare them at all, everyone played in a different era, everyone developed during different times and different conditions. You have too look at it at how much each one of the was better than the next and next player. And on that Pele beats the shit out of everyone, he was the one who dominated the most during his generation. Of all the greats he's the one who has won the most title and scored the most goals.

 

Says it all really

 

 

[Ketsbaia]

Messi could easily get 60 as well. 7 games to score 8 goals, although Pep might give him a rest before the final.

[Tooj]

I'd love to see Pele in his prime in the Premier League.  Don't reckon he'd score any more than 20 goals a season.  Todays game is just so much more technical and stamina based.

To score 52 goals in Spain is immense.  If he can come to the Premier League and score 40+ goals then he truly will be amongst the best ever.

 

 

[Tooj]

I'd love to see Pele in his prime in the Premier League.  Don't reckon he'd score any more than 20 goals a season.  Todays game is just so much more technical and stamina based.

 

To score 52 goals in Spain is immense.  If he can come to the Premier League and score 40+ goals then he truly will be amongst the best ever.

 

Ill raise all in with i'd love to see how Pele would've developed would he had the chance to develop during this era. Pele was just incredibly talented.

 

And like I stated before Messi has a long way to be considered better than Maradona in his own country. Even Di Stefano guys you forget, the guy won 5 Champions Leagues, 13 Championship in 3 different countries and still isn't considered better than Garrincha who won two world cups (one on his own just like Maradona).

 

Garrincha. 

[Village Idiot]

I think a lot of people seem to assume the Brazilian league of Pelé's times is the same as nowadays. It was the strongest league in the world back then.

[Flip]

I'd love to see Pele in his prime in the Premier League.  Don't reckon he'd score any more than 20 goals a season.  Todays game is just so much more technical and stamina based.

 

To score 52 goals in Spain is immense.  If he can come to the Premier League and score 40+ goals then he truly will be amongst the best ever.

 

Ill raise all in with i'd love to see how Pele would've developed would he had the chance to develop during this era. Pele was just incredibly talented.

 

And like I stated before Messi has a long way to be considered better than Maradona in his own country. Even Di Stefano guys you forget, the guy won 5 Champions Leagues, 13 Championship in 3 different countries and still isn't considered better than Garrincha who won two world cups (one on his own just like Maradona).

 

Garrincha.  

 

That man is a legend.

 

Possibly 36 children and had it been possible he would have had a son who was a mixture between a goat and an human.

[Tooj]

Had a massive cock as well, by all accounts.

[Guest firetotheworks]

He's already comfortably the best player I've seen in my life. So that's better than both Ronaldos, Zidane. He looks better than pretty much everyones bar Pele and Maradona going on the highlights I've seen, but without living through that time, I'll never trully know. He's also the first player since fat Ronaldo that I'd watch a match for as the sole reason.

[Tooj]

I think a lot of people seem to assume the Brazilian league of Pelé's times is the same as nowadays. It was the strongest league in the world back then.

 

Plus, whenever Santos used to come to Europe and play all of the top teams, they would often serve up a footballing lesson.

 

A bit like when Liverpool met Flamengo in the 80's.

 

[Flip]

I think a lot of people seem to assume the Brazilian league of Pelé's times is the same as nowadays. It was the strongest league in the world back then.

 

Plus, whenever Santos used to come to Europe and play all of the top teams, they would often serve up a footballing lesson.

 

A bit like when Liverpool met Flamengo in the 80's.

 

 

That Liverpool side got smoooshed big time by Flamengo.

[Tooj]

I think a lot of people seem to assume the Brazilian league of Pelé's times is the same as nowadays. It was the strongest league in the world back then.

 

Plus, whenever Santos used to come to Europe and play all of the top teams, they would often serve up a footballing lesson.

 

A bit like when Liverpool met Flamengo in the 80's.

 

 

That Liverpool side got smoooshed big time by Flamengo.

 

Massively. I've got the full match kicking around somewhere.

[Ketsbaia]

From 'This Day in Football History':

 

http://tdifh.blogspot.com/2011/03/12-march-1973-pele-comes-to-london.html

 

http://tdifh.blogspot.com/2011/03/14-march-1973-plymouth-rocks-pele.html

 

I know Pele was near the end of his career here, but Santos came to England and lost to Fulham (Div 2) and Plymouth (Div 3).

[Zero]

To me he is the best in this era, but still below Zidane. Zidane has the aura that makes all his teammates play like world champion like France in 2006. Messi, on the other hand, is a unbelievable player on his own but could not bring out the best of his teammates.  Barca would not be that dominant without Xavi and Iniesta.

[Shak]

To me he is the best in this era, but still below Zidane. Zidane has the aura that makes all his teammates play like world champion like France in 2006. Messi, on the other hand, is a unbelievable player on his own but could not bring out the best of his teammates.  Barca would not be that dominant without Xavi and Iniesta.

 

He's still only 23 though.

 

At the same age Zidane was playing for a pretty average Bordeaux side and wasn't exactly dragging them to success was he?

 

I'm sure he'll take on more of a leadership role as he gets older.

[EthiGeordie]

To me he is the best in this era, but still below Zidane. Zidane has the aura that makes all his teammates play like world champion like France in 2006. Messi, on the other hand, is a unbelievable player on his own but could not bring out the best of his teammates.  Barca would not be that dominant without Xavi and Iniesta.

 

He's still only 23 though.

 

At the same age Zidane was playing for a pretty average Bordeaux side and wasn't exactly dragging them to success was he?

 

I'm sure he'll take on more of a leadership role as he gets older.

 

True that and it is difficult to influence a team like Zidan did in 2006 while he is thirty something. I am sure his time will come for that. I am sure Messi is above all the rest bar Pele and Maradona.... He have a bright future to over take them as well.

[Zero]

Yea sure it's unfair to compare in that way.  I think Messi still have lots of chances to prove himself (at least 2 more WC) and he could be the best player since Maradona.

 

In the end, to be honest, it's WC what really matters. Cruyff, while regarded as one of the best player in football history, would never be regarded as "the best" player because he didn't win the WC.  The same for Messi and sure, C Ronaldo.