Hanshithispantz Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 So basically what you're saying is that the players that e can say played shite are the ones that you are deciding by some arbitrary rule? They have a fair few brilliant players and most of them played well, hence how they almost won it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 By the same token it's a complete myth that this Argentina side is s****, well in terms of the players in the squad anyway. On paper sure, but Aguero and Di Maria were injured and Higuain didn't show up. It never really quite came together how we all imagined. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 The year is 2014, not 1986. Football has evolved. To carry a team to a World Cup or a League title, like Maradona did, is simply not possible in today's game, IMO. If we're talking semantics I'd argue that while it's near impossible to replicate something a la Napoli, with the WC it actually is viable. Since international football isn't (or at least not as directly) impacted by vast differences in resources - i.e. money - I think the notion of a player carrying a country to glory is a realistic one. Whether it's more romantic than anything and Messi should be criticised for not being able to do is a different matter, as is whether it's all actually that important. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Also, is it just me or does Messi just look plain knackered? Not one for hyperbole but when fit, he plays virtually every minute of every single game. Year after year. Especially under Guardiola, it felt like he never, ever got subbed. Add in international commitments too and you've got to wonder whether he's simply worn out and whether it's all catching up with his body a bit? Whatever it is, he's not the same Messi of 2008-2013. Something's changed, just hope it's not permanent. Stamina wise he looks f*cked, i don't think he's being lazy in particular just that he can't seem to relentlessly hound opposition defenses without the ball like he used to for what ever reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I don't think he's being lazy either. Part of his 'style' is the fact he clearly conserves energy and deliberately walks around the pitch half the time. I dunno. Something's missing. I'm not sure whether it's all physical either. I wonder if he's lost some of his spark, some of his real hunger. Hope I'm proved completely wrong and he's back to his best for Barca this year. But, and I know he's set himself utterly ludicrous standards, I'm thinking for the first time that maybe, just maybe, we've already seen the best of Lionel Messi? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 So basically what you're saying is that the players that e can say played shite are the ones that you are deciding by some arbitrary rule? They have a fair few brilliant players and most of them played well, hence how they almost won it. The post I was quoting said they have some very good players on paper. I said that their best players on paper apart from Messi, Mascherano and Zabaleta were poor such as Aguero, Higuain and Di Maria. I agree that the likes of Garay, Rojo, Demichelis, Biglia etc. played well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 How can you say Higuan especially is better than Garay? Anyway it doesn't really matter, but Aguero was injured for half of it so it's slightly unfair to say his was poor, same with Di Maria who actually played well imo for at least 2 of the group games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 How can you say Higuan especially is better than Garay? Anyway it doesn't really matter, but Aguero was injured for half of it so it's slightly unfair to say his was poor, same with Di Maria who actually played well imo for at least 2 of the group games. I would have thought people would have rated Higuain above Garay before the tournament started, no? Higuain had the likes of Arsenal and Napoli battling for him last summer while Garay has gone to Russia this summer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Weird comparison. Higuain looked ungainly at best, mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 How can you say Higuan especially is better than Garay? Anyway it doesn't really matter, but Aguero was injured for half of it so it's slightly unfair to say his was poor, same with Di Maria who actually played well imo for at least 2 of the group games. I would have thought people would have rated Higuain above Garay before the tournament started, no? Higuain had the likes of Arsenal and Napoli battling for him last summer while Garay has gone to Russia this summer What's the point in this? Garay is a top class CB while Higuain is a top class ST. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Aguero might have a pass for the latter stages but he was really poor even in the group when he was supposedly fit for action, albeit after a season of niggles. I didn't see the Iran game but his performance against Bosnia was absolutely awful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segun Oluwaniyi Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi looked tired throughout the entire of the season, imo, and is back playing high pressure football at the highest level in little more than a month. He has carried so much on him the last 6+ years. Fatigue is very natural. How can you say Higuan especially is better than Garay? Anyway it doesn't really matter, but Aguero was injured for half of it so it's slightly unfair to say his was poor, same with Di Maria who actually played well imo for at least 2 of the group games. Their attacking players outside of Messi generally just did not perform well in this tournament at all, given the standard they set at the club level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Failed on the biggest stage there is. It's easy to perform when you have Xavi and Iniesta and who not passing you the ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Away Toon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi been regularly sick on the pitch during matches tells you something up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi been regularly sick on the pitch during matches tells you something up. Shouldn't have taken his growth hormones. On a serious note though, I do wonder what's wrong, it's not the first time either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi is a great club player for Barca - he's in a top side - but for me he is just a turbo version of Peter Beardsley, who he slightly resembles. Scores more goals than Beardsley did, but no way is he in the class of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc. Very good player at international level but not a genuine great for me....just to balance the books, I don't believe Neymar is either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Also, is it just me or does Messi just look plain knackered? Not one for hyperbole but when fit, he plays virtually every minute of every single game. Year after year. Especially under Guardiola, it felt like he never, ever got subbed. Add in international commitments too and you've got to wonder whether he's simply worn out and whether it's all catching up with his body a bit? Whatever it is, he's not the same Messi of 2008-2013. Something's changed, just hope it's not permanent. Genuinely think the Messi of two/three year ago would've won that tonight. Hopefully he just needs an extended break, but he doesn't look anywhere near his best at the minute. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi is a great club player for Barca - he's in a top side - but for me he is just a turbo version of Peter Beardsley, who he slightly resembles. Scores more goals than Beardsley did, but no way is he in the class of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc. Very good player at international level but not a genuine great for me....just to balance the books, I don't believe Neymar is either. To me there's no question about him being up there with those names (without never really seeing them play). Regardless of his WC showings so far and in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 One of the greatest, but definitely not the best ever. Kinda done and dusted in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 He still has another try to emulate Maradona and his 86 campaign. This year he managed to at least get Maradona and his 90 campaign emulated. Very similar in comparison they are too. Both not at their best yet still somehow managing to carry Argentina to a final defeat against the Germans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi is a great club player for Barca - he's in a top side - but for me he is just a turbo version of Peter Beardsley, who he slightly resembles. Scores more goals than Beardsley did, but no way is he in the class of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc. Very good player at international level but not a genuine great for me....just to balance the books, I don't believe Neymar is either. To me there's no question about him being up there with those names (without never really seeing them play). Regardless of his WC showings so far and in the future. If you had seen them play, you would know what I mean....I stick by my view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidAK Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 He's absolutely the best there's ever been for me. Not being able to single-handedly take down the footballing machine that is this German side in a 7-game tournament doesn't mean shit imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi is a great club player for Barca - he's in a top side - but for me he is just a turbo version of Peter Beardsley, who he slightly resembles. Scores more goals than Beardsley did, but no way is he in the class of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc. Very good player at international level but not a genuine great for me....just to balance the books, I don't believe Neymar is either. To me there's no question about him being up there with those names (without never really seeing them play). Regardless of his WC showings so far and in the future. If you had seen them play, you would know what I mean....I stick by my view. I agree. I would have him on Cruyff's level mind. But not as high as the two others . It's hardly criticism of Messi to say he's not quite as good as the best and second best of all time though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Cruyff didn't need to win a World Cup to generally be considered the 3rd greatest player of all time. And neither does Messi to be listed with them. They both came up against a fantastic German side, and couldn't quite get it over the line in the King's parlance (although the Netherlands really should have won it in 74). In basketball, Charles Barkley never won an NBA championship, but he was without doubt one of the greatest players of all time. Some people get so stuck on this silverware thing. It takes more conditions to win, not the least of which is the team you go up against in the final. FFS, Inzaghi won the World Cup with Italy. That's great in all for a forward who can barely walk four steps without falling down, but nobody on this side of sanity would put him in the same league with Messi. Messi did not look himself throughout the World Cup. Only glimpses. I won't say he's the greatest ever, but I won't use winning a World Cup as my metric. Messi, the dour little hunchback that he is, is still one of the greatest players I have ever seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miercoles Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 ^^^^ I agree with all of this, but you can't deny that the little fellow missed an opportunity to end this debate once and for all today. Losing in this final (and playing poorly by his standards) doesn't tarnish his legacy imo, but playing well and winning could have cemented it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now