mrmojorisin75 Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 You could say the opposite of someone like Maradona though, who's club career pales in comparison to Messi's. I mean it's not even in the same stratosphere. isn't it a bit like arguing managers who win cups are decent based on their cup records despite having shite league records? messi has dominated league and CL football for a decade or so which demands an insane level of consistency at a time when the european game is far and away the most dominant over the rest of football it's ever been the world cup would be the icing on the cake for him, but he already owns the fucking cake shop so who cares? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Spock ears Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 As far as I'm concerned the World Cup is the only box that Messi hasn't ticked yet. Not winning it wouldn't diminish his standing in the game as has been mentioned, many many fantastic players have failed to win the World Cup and I'm certain a few knackers have somehow ended up with a medal too. I think it's thrown at him because it's simply the only thing he's not done yet. Said it before, when he's retired he'll be the new benchmark and eclipse Pele. Pele did everything Messi has done and more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 As far as I'm concerned the World Cup is the only box that Messi hasn't ticked yet. Not winning it wouldn't diminish his standing in the game as has been mentioned, many many fantastic players have failed to win the World Cup and I'm certain a few knackers have somehow ended up with a medal too. I think it's thrown at him because it's simply the only thing he's not done yet. Said it before, when he's retired he'll be the new benchmark and eclipse Pele. Pele did everything Messi has done and more. But what about Maradona? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 As far as I'm concerned the World Cup is the only box that Messi hasn't ticked yet. Not winning it wouldn't diminish his standing in the game as has been mentioned, many many fantastic players have failed to win the World Cup and I'm certain a few knackers have somehow ended up with a medal too. I think it's thrown at him because it's simply the only thing he's not done yet. Said it before, when he's retired he'll be the new benchmark and eclipse Pele. Pele did everything Messi has done and more. How many full 90 minute games have you seen Pele play? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza ladra Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 I saw Pele play... ...in the NASL. Does that count? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 As far as I'm concerned the World Cup is the only box that Messi hasn't ticked yet. Not winning it wouldn't diminish his standing in the game as has been mentioned, many many fantastic players have failed to win the World Cup and I'm certain a few knackers have somehow ended up with a medal too. I think it's thrown at him because it's simply the only thing he's not done yet. Said it before, when he's retired he'll be the new benchmark and eclipse Pele. Pele did everything Messi has done and more. Just don't see it. He didn't play in a continent that attracted the best players from all over the world, paid the best wages to the best players etc. for high on 20 years or whatever the CL has Bern going. I'm not downplaying him but talent and money was surely much more dispersed in those days whereas Messi has ruled the roost at the time he has. You have to account for that imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 As far as I'm concerned the World Cup is the only box that Messi hasn't ticked yet. Not winning it wouldn't diminish his standing in the game as has been mentioned, many many fantastic players have failed to win the World Cup and I'm certain a few knackers have somehow ended up with a medal too. I think it's thrown at him because it's simply the only thing he's not done yet. Said it before, when he's retired he'll be the new benchmark and eclipse Pele. Pele did everything Messi has done and more. How many full 90 minute games have you seen Pele play? Not much, but would say around 15. Obviously probably been his best performances, but in terms of winning he did everything Messi did and more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 As far as I'm concerned the World Cup is the only box that Messi hasn't ticked yet. Not winning it wouldn't diminish his standing in the game as has been mentioned, many many fantastic players have failed to win the World Cup and I'm certain a few knackers have somehow ended up with a medal too. I think it's thrown at him because it's simply the only thing he's not done yet. Said it before, when he's retired he'll be the new benchmark and eclipse Pele. Pele did everything Messi has done and more. How many full 90 minute games have you seen Pele play? Not much, but would say around 15. Obviously probably been his best performances, but in terms of winning he did everything Messi did and more. So did have Xavi and Iniesta, yet they're in the same team as Messi and you won't find anyone saying they're better than Messi. I dunno, I tie myself up in knots with this debate like, I've become a bit obsessed with it tbh, I need to get a fucking life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 As far as I'm concerned the World Cup is the only box that Messi hasn't ticked yet. Not winning it wouldn't diminish his standing in the game as has been mentioned, many many fantastic players have failed to win the World Cup and I'm certain a few knackers have somehow ended up with a medal too. I think it's thrown at him because it's simply the only thing he's not done yet. Said it before, when he's retired he'll be the new benchmark and eclipse Pele. Pele did everything Messi has done and more. How many full 90 minute games have you seen Pele play? Not much, but would say around 15. Obviously probably been his best performances, but in terms of winning he did everything Messi did and more. So did have Xavi and Iniesta, yet they're in the same team as Messi and you won't find anyone saying they're better than Messi. I dunno, I tie myself up in knots with this debate like, I've become a bit obsessed with it tbh, I need to get a f***ing life. I like it. rather discuss Messi than Newcastle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 There's a lot of things I'd rather discuss than Newcastle tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I don't think winning the CL with a side like Barca however many times can be compared to winning the WC. These Barca sides essentially showed themselves good enough to win 2 EC & 1 World Cup back to back without Messi. So the side is one of the greatest ever without him. And this Barca side has 2 of the best 4 (at worst) forwards in the world aside from Messi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Ridiculous Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I don't think winning the CL with a side like Barca however many times can be compared to winning the WC. These Barca sides essentially showed themselves good enough to win 2 EC & 1 World Cup back to back without Messi. So the side is one of the greatest ever without him. And this Barca side has 2 of the best 4 (at worst) forwards in the world aside from Messi. Good enough without him to win stuff, despite him never not being there and being specifically the match winner on so many occasions? They have 3 out of the top 4 forwards in the world, of which he is number 1...they won the treble with him, Eto'o and Henry and almost the treble again with him, Pedro and Villa. He's the mainstay. They are one of the greatest ever because everything they do is built around getting the best out of him, even now with Neymar and Suarez. Slowly but surely Messi is becoming a hybrid of himself, Xavi and Iniesta. The different roles he plays now are remarkable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I don't think winning the CL with a side like Barca however many times can be compared to winning the WC. These Barca sides essentially showed themselves good enough to win 2 EC & 1 World Cup back to back without Messi. So the side is one of the greatest ever without him. And this Barca side has 2 of the best 4 (at worst) forwards in the world aside from Messi. Good enough without him to win stuff, despite him never not being there and being specifically the match winner on so many occasions? They have 3 out of the top 4 forwards in the world, of which he is number 1...they won the treble with him, Eto'o and Henry and with him, Pedro and Villa. He's the mainstay. They are one of the greatest ever because everything they do is built around getting the best out of him, even now with Neymar and Suarez. Slowly but surely Messi is becoming a hybrid of himself, Xavi and Iniesta. The different roles he plays now are remarkable. TCD being contrary for the sake of it shocker. I might be wrong but last year is surely regarded as Messi's worst in his club career leading up to the world cup. Without checking it's surely the only season Barca failed to win something in ages as well is it not? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Trophies aren't the sign of a great player, they're the sign of a great team; individual ability shouldn't just be judged on world cup or champions league honours IMO. Using my eyes to watch Messi play football is enough for me to say he's the greatest player I've ever seen. He has more in his locker than any of his peers and he's performed at a ridiculously high level with more consistency for longer. Winning a world cup wouldn't really elevate my opinion of him at all and failing to win one wouldn't lower it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yeah, it was subpar for him...he only scored 41 in 45 and got 18 assists. That being below par for someone seems unimaginable. Obviously stats don't tell the whole story, but in the seasons before that he scored 60 in 50 and 73 in 60 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yeah, it was subpar for him...he only scored 41 in 45 and got 18 assists. That being below par for someone seems unimaginable. Obviously stats don't tell the whole story, but in the seasons before that he scored 60 in 50 and 73 in 60 He's the greatest like, no doubt in my mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Stats definitely don't tell the story with someone like him, I personally think this is the best season of his career but the stats won't suggest that. The decision making in particular took a big leap than any other previous season IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Stats definitely don't tell the story with someone like him, I personally think this is the best season of his career but the stats won't suggest that. The decision making in particular took a big leap than any other previous season IMO. Fair point. As I've said elsewhere as well that's what's set Suarez apart and made them tick for me too. Neymar is basically the selfish cunt of the three and the other two are more than willing to set him up on a plate when they can. Would like to see Neymars assists vs the other two for the season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Stats definitely don't tell the story with someone like him, I personally think this is the best season of his career but the stats won't suggest that. The decision making in particular took a big leap than any other previous season IMO. Fair point. As I've said elsewhere as well that's what's set Suarez apart and made them tick for me too. Neymar is basically the selfish cunt of the three and the other two are more than willing to set him up on a plate when they can. Would like to see Neymars assists vs the other two for the season. Two less assists than Suarez with a dozen or so more goals, I think. Edit: That stat might just have been assists directly between the three of them, thinking about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I was talking about it with my mates the other night when we were watching the CL final. The thing is, with most players in the past or now, you look at them as a whole and see what their all-round game is like to determine how good they are as a player. So say for example, when Zidane was the best player in the world he wasn't definitely the best goalscorer, or positionally etc, but overall with his main attributes like his vision and his footballing brain made him overall the best player in the world. With Messi though, if you break it down I'd argue that he's the best in the world at pretty much everything he does bar heading and defending. Dribbling, goalscoring, positioning, passing, decision making, awareness, football brain etc. Every single attribute he's the best in the world at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Stats definitely don't tell the story with someone like him, I personally think this is the best season of his career but the stats won't suggest that. The decision making in particular took a big leap than any other previous season IMO. Fair point. As I've said elsewhere as well that's what's set Suarez apart and made them tick for me too. Neymar is basically the selfish cunt of the three and the other two are more than willing to set him up on a plate when they can. Would like to see Neymars assists vs the other two for the season. Two less assists than Suarez with a dozen or so more goals, I think. I'm honestly shocked by the assists stat like, but then stats is stats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Stats definitely don't tell the story with someone like him, I personally think this is the best season of his career but the stats won't suggest that. The decision making in particular took a big leap than any other previous season IMO. Fair point. As I've said elsewhere as well that's what's set Suarez apart and made them tick for me too. Neymar is basically the selfish cunt of the three and the other two are more than willing to set him up on a plate when they can. Would like to see Neymars assists vs the other two for the season. Two less assists than Suarez with a dozen or so more goals, I think. I'm honestly shocked by the assists stat like, but then stats is stats. Suarez missed about three months of the season Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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