Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Guest firetotheworks]

Well nobody will win the World Cup this, next or the year after either.

 

 

Makes it all the more down to being a victim or victor of circumstance!

[Incognito]

I don't think the WC is harder to win than the CL. It only seems hard because it comes around every 4 years but the level of competition isn't that good. I bet all four semi finalists of the CL this year would beat Germany in a head to head tie.

Well if you want to go into hypothetical situations, then I bet the Brazil World Cup winning side of 1970 would beat any Champions league winning side ever.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I don't think the WC is harder to win than the CL. It only seems hard because it comes around every 4 years but the level of competition isn't that good. I bet all four semi finalists of the CL this year would beat Germany in a head to head tie.

Well if you want to go into hypothetical situations, then I bet the Brazil World Cup winning side of 1970 would beat any Champions league winning side ever.

 

You reckon they'd beat '08-'12 Spain?

[Hanshithispantz]

Not really sure what the argument is tbh, Messi is obviously good enough to 'win a World Cup'. Whether or not he actually does ever win one won't make him a better player, it's just a better story.

[Incognito]

I don't think the WC is harder to win than the CL. It only seems hard because it comes around every 4 years but the level of competition isn't that good. I bet all four semi finalists of the CL this year would beat Germany in a head to head tie.

Well if you want to go into hypothetical situations, then I bet the Brazil World Cup winning side of 1970 would beat any Champions league winning side ever.

 

You reckon they'd beat '08-'12 Spain?

Brazil 70? Yeah.

[Incognito]

He's never consistently, if at all, brought his unbelievable club form to the International stage. I think that's fair to say. It's not like he doesn't represent one of the best football nations in the World either. It's a hole in his career that needs filling if he could justifiably be the greatest football player of all time in my opinion.

[Hanshithispantz]

You could say the opposite of someone like Maradona though, who's club career pales in comparison to Messi's. I mean it's not even in the same stratosphere.

[Guest neesy111]

Messi's form 2012-14 for Argentina was one of the best in international football tbf.

[Flip]

Neymar is 5 years younger, not even that great and has had a better international career than Messi already basically, all this playing in one of the worst Brazilian sides I've seen while Messi has had one of the most talented sides. It's obviously fair to criticize Messi's international career. He's won one Olympic gold and he wasn't even the main man then.

 

He's still the best one I've seen live, but to say he's been great since Maradona left and put his international 'failure' on Maradona rather than Messi himself is laughable.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Neymar is 5 years younger, not even that great and has had a better international career than Messi already basically, all this playing in one of the worst Brazilian sides I've seen while Messi has had one of the most talented sides. It's obviously fair to criticize Messi's international career. He's won one Olympic gold and he wasn't even the main man then.

 

He's still the best one I've seen live, but to say he's been great since Maradona left and put his international 'failure' on Maradona rather than Messi himself is laughable.

 

Not at all. Maradona was a terrible manager for Argentina and had no idea how to make Messi the main man. He played him how he had played as a player and expected him to just be Maradona. He emphasised the team ethic but never played Messi to his strengths. This is a man who played Jonas at Right Back and said that he and Messi were the most important players in the Argentinian squad.

 

It's no different to Peckerman being the reason Argentina didn't go further in '06 by taking off Riquelme against Germany. These things are tangible and with Maradona as manager it was exactly the same, he was totally hopeless.

[Incognito]

You could say the opposite of someone like Maradona though, who's club career pales in comparison to Messi's. I mean it's not even in the same stratosphere.

That's unfair really.  Maradona at Napoli was a special time. BSB were showing Serie A in the late 80s. Staple hangover curing Sunday afternoon fayre for me .

[Guest firetotheworks]

I'd love Football Italia to come back in its old format with maybe more leagues. Absolutely loved watching that when Ronaldo was at Inter and then you had Zidane, Del Piero, Weah, Maldini and then Totti coming through.

[Incognito]

I'd love Football Italia to come back in its old format with maybe more leagues. Absolutely loved watching that when Ronaldo was at Inter and then you had Zidane, Del Piero, Weah, Maldini and then Totti coming through.

Yeah that was a little later. Channel 4 jumped on it when Gazza, Walker and Platt went over there. And Tony Dorigo of course.

[Guest firetotheworks]

My favourite quote from a player moving abroad.

 

"I couldn't settle in Italy, it was like living in a foreign country" - Ian Rush.

[toon25]

I'd love Football Italia to come back in its old format with maybe more leagues. Absolutely loved watching that when Ronaldo was at Inter and then you had Zidane, Del Piero, Weah, Maldini and then Totti coming through.

 

Aye.

 

James Richardson made that programme. Fantastic presenter.

 

Compare Football Italia to the shit ITV continue to serve up. Charles/Pougach/Townsend/Dixon/that cunt Tyldesley - all absolute bollocks.

[Tooj]

He's a fantastic player, he really is. But until he has a World Cup finals , not even a World Cup win but a finals that he stamps his class on, then Pele and the likes of Maradona still come above him in my GOAT list.

 

If Tevez was in Argentina's team last year he would be a World Cup winner.

 

I'd expect a call up before Palacio ffs.

Tevez has never been great for Argentina like.

[Mole_Toonfan]

You could say the opposite of someone like Maradona though, who's club career pales in comparison to Messi's. I mean it's not even in the same stratosphere.

That's unfair really.  Maradona at Napoli was a special time. BSB were showing Serie A in the late 80s. Staple hangover curing Sunday afternoon fayre for me .

 

In all seriousness though it still doesn't compare, in terms of club careers the only ones I can think of who compare is Pele and Cruyff.

[Andy]

Neymar is 5 years younger, not even that great and has had a better international career than Messi already basically, all this playing in one of the worst Brazilian sides I've seen while Messi has had one of the most talented sides. It's obviously fair to criticize Messi's international career. He's won one Olympic gold and he wasn't even the main man then.

 

He's still the best one I've seen live, but to say he's been great since Maradona left and put his international 'failure' on Maradona rather than Messi himself is laughable.

 

Not at all. Maradona was a terrible manager for Argentina and had no idea how to make Messi the main man. He played him how he had played as a player and expected him to just be Maradona. He emphasised the team ethic but never played Messi to his strengths. This is a man who played Jonas at Right Back and said that he and Messi were the most important players in the Argentinian squad.

 

It's no different to Peckerman being the reason Argentina didn't go further in '06 by taking off Riquelme against Germany. These things are tangible and with Maradona as manager it was exactly the same, he was totally hopeless.

 

Has to be the most moronic substitution of all time that like.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

People keep saying the World Cup is a low level trophy. It is however the premier International trophy. I still believe it is the highest accolade a professional football player can win. International football doesn't have the same aura about it today. I think that football is worse off for that .

 

It is the biggest honour because to achieve a WC winners medal means you have to go from being a 4 year old kid or whatever interested in the sport, going into school teams, academy teams, representing junior national sides, making it into the first team of a club and becoming good enough to represent your country and belonging to a side that is good enough to win the WC. It is the ultimate achievement in football - from kid to WC winner. Its the ultimate journey if you like. It saddens me that the CL is of a much better standard these days.

 

Messi is the best player of his generation and right up there with the likes of Pele, but he does need to win a WC and he needs to star in one and or a final with the result a win to be considered the best. I'm not a fan of Argentina, but for his sake, I hope he does it because isn't that what the game is all about?

[Incognito]

People keep saying the World Cup is a low level trophy. It is however the premier International trophy. I still believe it is the highest accolade a professional football player can win. International football doesn't have the same aura about it today. I think that football is worse off for that .

 

It is the biggest honour because to achieve a WC winners medal means you have to go from being a 4 year old kid or whatever interested in the sport, going into school teams, academy teams, representing junior national sides, making it into the first team of a club and becoming good enough to represent your country and belonging to a side that is good enough to win the WC. It is the ultimate achievement in football - from kid to WC winner. Its the ultimate journey if you like. It saddens me that the CL is of a much better standard these days.

 

Messi is the best player of his generation and right up there with the likes of Pele, but he does need to win a WC and he needs to star in one and or a final with the result a win to be considered the best. I'm not a fan of Argentina, but for his sake, I hope he does it because isn't that what the game is all about?

Well said HTT.

[Deuce]

People keep saying the World Cup is a low level trophy. It is however the premier International trophy. I still believe it is the highest accolade a professional football player can win. International football doesn't have the same aura about it today. I think that football is worse off for that .

 

It is the biggest honour because to achieve a WC winners medal means you have to go from being a 4 year old kid or whatever interested in the sport, going into school teams, academy teams, representing junior national sides, making it into the first team of a club and becoming good enough to represent your country and belonging to a side that is good enough to win the WC. It is the ultimate achievement in football - from kid to WC winner. Its the ultimate journey if you like. It saddens me that the CL is of a much better standard these days.

 

Messi is the best player of his generation and right up there with the likes of Pele, but he does need to win a WC and he needs to star in one and or a final with the result a win to be considered the best. I'm not a fan of Argentina, but for his sake, I hope he does it because isn't that what the game is all about?

 

I think he's already the greatest ever, but the WC is definitely his white whale, the only thing he needs to win to be the undisputed GOAT. He's got one, maybe two, chances to see the job done with Argentina.

 

Leaving Barcelona for some other club, to see how he fares without playing with the very best season after season, would be really interesting as well (the idea of him playing in the PL is ). But I think I'd prefer him to finish his career a one-club man and I can't imagine him wanting to play anywhere else (perhaps back in Argentina when he's 40 and still crushing it )

 

Agreed with the rest though, winning the WC *should be* the most prestigious honor a footballer could achieve. It is disappointing how the standard has dropped, particularly vis-a-vis the CL.

[Vinny Green Balls]

You could say the opposite of someone like Maradona though, who's club career pales in comparison to Messi's. I mean it's not even in the same stratosphere.

That's unfair really.  Maradona at Napoli was a special time. BSB were showing Serie A in the late 80s. Staple hangover curing Sunday afternoon fayre for me .

 

Not to mention he played in an age when defenders could get away with hacking the shit out of players. One of the best I've ever seen van Basten was unstoppable on his day, but for the fact defenders persistently got away with cutting him down like a tree.

 

Messi would have still absolutely thrived in that era though. His balance at pace is superhuman; the fuckers would be lucky to make any contact with him while trying to cut him down.

[Incognito]

You could say the opposite of someone like Maradona though, who's club career pales in comparison to Messi's. I mean it's not even in the same stratosphere.

That's unfair really.  Maradona at Napoli was a special time. BSB were showing Serie A in the late 80s. Staple hangover curing Sunday afternoon fayre for me .

 

Not to mention he played in an age when defenders could get away with hacking the shit out of players. One of the best I've ever seen van Basten was unstoppable on his day, but for the fact defenders persistently got away with cutting him down like a tree.

 

Messi would have still absolutely thrived in that era though. His balance at pace is superhuman; the fuckers would be lucky to make any contact with him while trying to cut him down.

 

Crying shame that injuries robbed us of Van Basten. I was fortunate/unfortunate to see him destroy an England side in 1988 in Dusseldorf, good grief that performance set Tony Adams back a couple of years, such was the level of his torment.

 

 

Good point too about what defenders could get away with back in the day. Messi has been good as far as injuries are concerned,whether it's down to his training or the change in attitude towards tackling is anyone's guess  though.

[midds]

As far as I'm concerned the World Cup is the only box that Messi hasn't ticked yet. Not winning it wouldn't diminish his standing in the game as has been mentioned, many many fantastic players have failed to win the World Cup and I'm certain a few knackers have somehow ended up with a medal too. I think it's thrown at him because it's simply the only thing he's not done yet. Said it before, when he's retired he'll be the new benchmark and eclipse Pele.

[Guest firetotheworks]

You could say the opposite of someone like Maradona though, who's club career pales in comparison to Messi's. I mean it's not even in the same stratosphere.

That's unfair really.  Maradona at Napoli was a special time. BSB were showing Serie A in the late 80s. Staple hangover curing Sunday afternoon fayre for me .

 

Not to mention he played in an age when defenders could get away with hacking the shit out of players. One of the best I've ever seen van Basten was unstoppable on his day, but for the fact defenders persistently got away with cutting him down like a tree.

 

Messi would have still absolutely thrived in that era though. His balance at pace is superhuman; the fuckers would be lucky to make any contact with him while trying to cut him down.

 

Crying shame that injuries robbed us of Van Basten. I was fortunate/unfortunate to see him destroy an England side in 1988 in Dusseldorf, good grief that performance set Tony Adams back a couple of years, such was the level of his torment.

 

 

Good point too about what defenders could get away with back in the day. Messi has been good as far as injuries are concerned,whether it's down to his training or the change in attitude towards tackling is anyone's guess  though.

 

He still gets the odd calf injury but that's generally seen as being more down to his past diet than his training. Iirc he thinks that if he misses matches he's more likely to get injured, than if he plays every match and starts getting worn out.

 

As for tackles, he still gets kicked all over in La Liga like, most of the time they can't even get close enough to take him out, sometimes they try and he evades them, every now and again they take him down though and it usually ends up being an absolutely blatant one because they know that the slightest touch won't take him down (like it would with Suarez, or Robben for example) and he'll just carry on. Ramos has wiped him out a couple of times and then Pogba last night, but it's rare that you see them even being able to do it.