AlanSkÃrare Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 I don't think that many players are eager to sign for Liverpool in their current state, whether that's down to Dalglish or the owners or the players I don't know. It just seems such an uneasy place with many players showing their disappointment, fans behaving weird and a manager who can't get his team playing. I think they need to get Kenny out and get a more positive vibe around their club to attract decent players in the summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Totally disagree. They pay big wages and their name alone will continue to attract good players for years to come. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 its how spurs got to where they are Really? Spurs have sold for good prices (Carrick, Berbatov), but they are also near the top of the net transfer investment charts. For more info: http://www.transferleague.co.uk/ I think you're missing the point, Spurs only spend what they can afford. That they have done very well in the last 10-years in maximising their off-field revenue which allows them to afford to 'invest' in the relatively high player turnover that they've had in the past 5 years, going from a mid-table 'cup team' to a Champs League challenger. So why am I missing the point? The suggestion was Spurs got to where they are by buying low and selling high, whilst gradually trying to improve the squad (like we are trying to do now). This is not the case, as that link suggests: Spurs have a net transfer spend of over 110 million in the last 8 years, which puts them fourth only behind Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool. I don't know if they are spending beyond their means or not: their turnover is certainly much higher than ours (almost double), so they must be doing something right, especially in the commercial revenue area. Anyway, to suggest Spurs got to where they are (regular CL contenders) by developing the squad through not spending more on incoming players than they got in from transfer fees for outgoing players and simply selling high and buying low is a myth. They're not. Spurs do not ever spend beyond what they can afford. They have no football related debt, their debt (what little they have) is all property/infrastructure related. They started their climb on the back of selling their "expensive" or best players and have continuously replaced them well. They've done it over several years, whether we can maintain our current "trading" record similarly is the question. Nett transfer spend as a measure of anything, taken in isolation, is a nonsense. They've made something like £30 Million profit in the last five years or so, after buying/selling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sicko2ndbest Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 The only one that I expect to go is Tiote and that will take a £20m + bid The players who are availible for us now because if our new found attractiveness says to me he will be easier to replace! The policy is a good one and one that I believe in. As custodians of the club MA/DL have turned us from laughing stock into a genuine force which teams up and down the land are jealous of! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Best read about the non-football side in a long time. I especially like the carbon emissions bit. I wonder if we do have the replacements replacement for every position though and how much weaker some would be with that replacement in place. I know that year on year we can make money and potentiall go forward that way but there will be definitely come a time when a player doesn't work for whatever reason Undoubtedly true. But there are also players that cost millions who also don't work for whatever reason. Fair point, feel a little more confident when you put it like that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ToonZA Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Best read about the non-football side in a long time. I especially like the carbon emissions bit. I wonder if we do have the replacements replacement for every position though and how much weaker some would be with that replacement in place. I know that year on year we can make money and potentiall go forward that way but there will be definitely come a time when a player doesn't work for whatever reason Undoubtedly true. But there are also players that cost millions who also don't work for whatever reason. Fair point, feel a little more confident when you put it like that All the more reason to also pay as much attention to the Academy side of things and bring through youngsters who can challenge for a first team place. The benefits are abviously massive in this regard - local talent, less risk, cost effective, greater future sell-on value, etc. One of the knock-on effects of utilising your Academy to replace players is you minimise the risk of getting things wrong with your transfer policy. Simply put, the less you use your transfer policy, the less opportunity for you to choose the wrong player. (Not sure if this will make sense to people) Would like to see more youngsters getting some game time next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Logic Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 With the exception of the team bonuses agreed with the squad at the start of the season, Llambias rarely commits to incentives in individual players' contracts. The strikeforce do not have a bonus for scoring or assisting in goals This bit I find hard to believe, especially concerning Demba Ba's contract, which is rumoured to be heavily incentivised. Exception to the rule? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 The only one that I expect to go is Tiote and that will take a £20m + bid I'm not sure on that. The rumours about Ba and PSG sound a bit convincing. Neither player is irreplaceable though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deputy Dawg UK Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 The only one that I expect to go is Tiote and that will take a £20m + bid The players who are availible for us now because if our new found attractiveness says to me he will be easier to replace! The policy is a good one and one that I believe in. As custodians of the club MA/DL have turned us from laughing stock into a genuine force which teams up and down the land are jealous of! I have to agree totally...we are a good team but better that that we have a great financial footing i think it was said last week the Liverpool wage bill is double ours !!! i tihnk that says it all ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segun Oluwaniyi Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Completely ambivalent about Michael Ashley. A little more than a year ago, we sold our best striker and most valuable asset (in a season where safety was not guaranteed by any means) and replaced him with Shefki Kuqi. Just about three years ago at this time, our ridiculously incompetent manger had a heart arrest, and we replaced him with some footballer who had never managed before. Once this person inevitably failed, we replaced him someone else who had never managed before. This one did alright, but was sacked at the first available opportunity. Three and half years ago, he ran Kevin Keegan out of club (in a manner that would lead to a ridiculous court settlement), immediately put the club up for sale, and threw the entire city into chaos. Generally he has been here less than five years, and has managed to change the name of the stadium twice, publicly put the the club up for the sale on several occasions , overseen a disastrous relegation, and antagonised the supporters to a degree that it was genuinely unsafe for him to attend home matches Yet, for the last 8 months or so we've been one of the most well run clubs in the world and have ended up in a position far better than we he arrived despite all of that. Nothing about the last 4 seasons has made any sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazzle Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Some footballer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Dem BaBa nails it in one. To be honest, NUFC are just a very unusual club. We have the potential to collapse incredibly quickly and also the potential to rebuild incredibly quickly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpy Gunt Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Completely ambivalent about Michael Ashley. A little more than a year ago, we sold our best striker and most valuable asset (in a season where safety was not guaranteed by any means) and replaced him with Shefki Kuqi. Just about three years ago at this time, our ridiculously incompetent manger had a heart arrest, and we replaced him with some footballer who had never managed before. Once this person inevitably failed, we replaced him someone else who had never managed before. This one did alright, but was sacked at the first available opportunity. Three and half years ago, he ran Kevin Keegan out of club (in a manner that would lead to a ridiculous court settlement), immediately put the club up for sale, and threw the entire city into chaos. Generally he has been here less than five years, and has managed to change the name of the stadium twice, publicly put the the club up for the sale on several occasions , overseen a disastrous relegation, and antagonised the supporters to a degree that it was genuinely unsafe for him to attend home matches Yet, for the last 8 months or so we've been one of the most well run clubs in the world and have ended up in a position far better than we he arrived despite all of that. Nothing about the last 4 seasons has made any sense. But apart from that .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deputy Dawg UK Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Completely ambivalent about Michael Ashley. A little more than a year ago, we sold our best striker and most valuable asset (in a season where safety was not guaranteed by any means) and replaced him with Shefki Kuqi. Just about three years ago at this time, our ridiculously incompetent manger had a heart arrest, and we replaced him with some footballer who had never managed before. Once this person inevitably failed, we replaced him someone else who had never managed before. This one did alright, but was sacked at the first available opportunity. Three and half years ago, he ran Kevin Keegan out of club (in a manner that would lead to a ridiculous court settlement), immediately put the club up for sale, and threw the entire city into chaos. Generally he has been here less than five years, and has managed to change the name of the stadium twice, publicly put the the club up for the sale on several occasions , overseen a disastrous relegation, and antagonised the supporters to a degree that it was genuinely unsafe for him to attend home matches Yet, for the last 8 months or so we've been one of the most well run clubs in the world and have ended up in a position far better than we he arrived despite all of that. Nothing about the last 4 seasons has made any sense. All the above is true but we cannot get away from the fact our financial situation is terrific (compared to most in the EPL) He has made a lot of errors but let none of us get away from the fact where we are now.........i for one think just keep doing as you have done and i will be with you all the way !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punk77 Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 http://www.thehardtackle.com/2012/newcastle-united-owner-mike-ashley-moneyball/? Newcastle United Owner Mike Ashley Deserves Credit For His Own Version Of Moneyball As Brad Pitt was wowing us by showing the innate genius of Oakland Athletics’s General Manager Billy Bean, who achieved so much more than their payroll justified, little did we know that in the North-East of England another club was waking up from its slumber to rise into prominence using a similar “moneyball” philosophy. With the number of billionaires increasing in football by the day it has become an unofficial arms race of sorts where the owners are shelling out amounts unheard of on players who at best could be labeled mediocre. And all this in the name of success, as we know from common belief that the more you spend the higher the probability is of success. We all have been lead to believe what we all know “if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys”. Clearly, someone forgot to mention this to Mike Ashley and Derek Llambias. They have been cooking up what the Wall Street Journal calls “Soccer’s Cut-Price Revolution”. Many can claim Ashley to be just the figurehead and neglect his contributions to such a huge project but credit goes where it’s due. His new ideas weren’t conventional and thus came with it huge media and mass criticism. Like many others, he bought a football club for £134 million to ‘show off’ but it cost him more than he had bargained for. Unable to grasp the finances, the on field requirements as well as the powerful emotion of the Geordie people, he went on a downward spiral and took the club ‘down’, quite literally, with himself. He was even forced to put the club on sale. Having failed in that aspect, he and Llambias owned up to their mistakes and buckled up to run the club their way and to make it a success both financially as well as on the field where it really mattered. 3 long years, 6 managers and even more controversial decisions later, Newcastle Untied as well as Ashley and Co., are getting deserved accolades. . Villan-Turned-Heroes? . It’s hard to put it in words about how Ashley, Llambias and the club have overcome all the odds stacked against them to achieve success. In doing so, Newcastle have laid down a blue print of healthy success which other clubs with lesser finances can follow. Neither Ashley nor Lambias have ever been adored like Billy Bean or Peter Brand in Oakland; neither did they have any books written by someone like Bill James to look upon while deciding on their future course. On the contrary, they were loathed and despised by the general public in Newcastle with abuses being constantly hurled at him at the ground by protesters as well as on the streets. Some of it were even justified since the appointment of Dennis Wise and Tony Jimenez as directors of football didn’t turn out to be such a wise decision after all. This really makes it even more emotionally harder to care for a club whose fans just plainly want you out of there. Being a successful businessman as he is, Ashley never paid much heed to them and along with his colleagues went about rebuilding a club which had been tortured both emotionally and financially. With many a shrewd decision on players’ movement and their keen business acumen, they have been able to wake up a sleeping giant of English football and bring them within touching distance of European-level fame. However, it hasn’t been Ashley and Llambias alone all the way. They had laid a blueprint down for the success of the club but needed people who could execute their plan to the core. In came the “mannas from heaven”. The due diligence of their chief scout Graham Carr and manager Alan Pardew have played huge roles in such a turn around. Even former manager Chris Hughton deserves accolades for rescuing the sinking ship in that single year back in the Championship. Ashley may not have known it then but that one season spent by the toon outside the Premiership rather came as a blessing in disguise, where they could offload high earners who didn’t produce enough and didn’t give a darn to what happened to the club (the Duffs, Martins, Owens and Vidukas of the world). Hughton brought the club together in this time of turmoil with a number of players who stood up. They, thus, avoided what ultimately became of Leeds, Nottingham and Wednesday. Having secured Newcastle a comfortable mid-table position in the first year back up, Hughton was removed in favour of Pardew which at that time was quiet a gutsy move, one that was heavily criticized by all and sundry. This made Pardew’s job no easier than it already was, but the gamble has paid off handsomely. One year later, Hughton is now a figure of the past, although not forgotten. If this wasn’t enough for Ashley and Co. to make themselves unpopular on Tyneside, they followed it up with an even more controversial one, selling the club’s no.9 and fan favourite Andy Carroll for a record British record transfer fee of £35million to Liverpool. This brought the ire of the whole of Geordie nation on him. But an year later, the decision has been vindicated. They didn’t stop there and let three more stalwarts in Enrique, Nolan and Barton leave at the beginning of the season making them one of the favourites for the bookies to go down again. Newcastle are now pushing for fourth, only separated from Spurs by virtue of goal difference and 2 points ahead of big spenders Chelsea and 13 ahead of Liverpool, looking every bit deserving of the place they hold amongst the big boys of the Premier League. . Has silenced all the critics! . Pardew, along with Carr, bought into Ashley’s philosophy and their scouting focused basically on young talent both known and unknown. Focusing mostly on mainland Europe, unconvinced that paying over the odds for overpriced and sometimes over-hyped English talent was the way to go about business, they raided France and brought in Cabaye, Ben Arfa and an impressive youngster Mehdi Abeid for a combined total of only £10 million. They brought in Demba Ba for a free and in January, gave him a partner of some calibre in Pappiss Demba Cisse from Freiburg. Even when criticized for lack of activity in the transfer market, they haven’t panicked and haven’t given into surreal transfer demands from the other clubs. The waiting game has worked wonders. Newcastle’s balance sheet goes from strength to strength as well reporting a meager £3.9 million pound operating loss for the season, down nearly £30 million on the previous year. Now, only owing Mike Ashley himself about £150 million in zero interest loans, he strives to make Newcastle an independent successful entity on the financial front as well. This model of ownership may bode for more future successes as it separates itself from constant pumping of lifeline money for it to survive and compete. The bigger picture looks a lot different from how it was a year back and there are virtually no words to describe the turnaround that this sleeping giant has encountered in two years, from fighting to hold down a place in the league to fighting for a place in Europe. The players have undoubtedly helped. Newcastle’s trouble brewed from an uncertain front office and now Ashley and co. has turned it into Newcastle’s greatest strength. They may never be popular figures on Tyneside due to the turmoil they had caused but every Geordie in their heart knows this turnaround wouldn’t have been possible if everyone at the club from top to bottom weren’t involved in a concerted effort. The judgement may still be out for some, but Newcastle have done it before under Keegan and Sir Bobby. May be it is time again. The club sets the mood for the whole region. It is a club of the people and for the people of Newcastle; they live and breathe by it. St. James’s Park (now renamed) is referred to as the “cathedral on the hill” and is more important than the church itself. Newcastle and Ashley hold the key to how much further they want to go. It is there time to rise. It is a refreshing change in attitude brought about by the club and hopefully, will set a precedent for other less resourceful clubs to follow and long may it continue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gggg Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Moneyball my arse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Moneyball my arse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKSC Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Moneyball my arse. The term 'Moneyball' is the flavour of the month over here at the moment, mainly because the film is the first time so many people in the media have heard of it. To label what we have done, and what Comolli is reported to have tried at Liverpool as Moneyball is laughable. For a start Liverpool are one of the biggest spenders on transfers and wages, which is precisely the opposite of Moneyball. The original Moneyball was more about finding a way to compete against the big spending teams, when you have less than half the money available, by finding players to one specific thing. Get on base. The premise being that the more people you get on base, the more runs you will score, the more often you win. The literal football equivalent, I suppose, would be the more times you get the ball in the box, the more times you will score. Sounds nice in principal but in practice it is the sort of thing employed by fat sam and other such managers who follow the science and the stats. What we are doing, in my opinion, is purely using people with the required knowledge to find good young players who won't cost a bomb and will fit in to the ethic of the team. It's a new kind of 'Moneyball' not based around stats but around sound business principals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I've not even seen the film but use of that term is starting to piss me off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ObiChrisKenobi Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 It used to be called Scouting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NG32 Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Its a all a Scout young talented players and buy them cheap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Its a all a Scout young talented players and buy them cheap. ...then hopefully sell them for big money and use the brass to subsidise losses elsewhere, and/or buy cheap replacements again. The hardest thing for me to accept - aside from learning not to become attached to our best players - is that we are able to trade up each time, whilst losing key components of our team. Whilst it's working like this season has then obviously there's no problem, I just can't help but feel that at some point we need to draw a line under it and keep the core together if we're to repeat this season's success or progress even further. Hopefully the new contract for Coloccini ('too old, wages too high') and the purchase of Cisse ('over 25, far too much to pay') are an indication of this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Its a all a Scout young talented players and buy them cheap. ...then hopefully sell them for big money and use the brass to subsidise losses elsewhere, and/or buy cheap replacements again. The hardest thing for me to accept - aside from learning not to become attached to our best players - is that we are able to trade up each time, whilst losing key components of our team. Whilst it's working like this season has then obviously there's no problem, I just can't help but feel that at some point we need to draw a line under it and keep the core together if we're to repeat this season's success or progress even further. Hopefully the new contracts for Coloccini ('too old, wages too high') and the purchase of Cisse ('over 25, far too much to pay') are an indication of this. If we got top four it would be almost completely down to the signing of Cisse in January, as there'd be no way we'd have hit this form otherwise. That might be the nudge they need to realise that spending big can be a good thing because it means speculating to accumulate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Coloccini should be a nudge too. He cost big money, been here 4 years during which we've prospered immensely and he's been largely been the single biggest reason for it. Class in key areas should be retained at all costs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzzieMandias Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Yeah, I'm sure Ashley is now completely converted to the "speculate to accumulate" philiosophy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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