Unbelievable Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Unless you're a fan of finances, specifically who we owe money to (quite a bit more bothered about football myself) then I can't see how we're any better off. We're far less ambitious, far less prestigious, no more stable and suffer almost constant embarrassment including the ultimate shame of relegation. We were something, now we're nothing. 100% this. Our average league position in Ashley's tenure is lower than in the period before he took over. To suggest it isn't debatable if we have made progress is quite frankly laughable. Unfortunately our resident balance sheet fan has given up on trying to explain with arguments his opinions presented as fact. Am interested in who you are referring to and why you say that. Are you for real? I hardly ever see you post about anything other than finances. I like you as a poster, and I certainly value your contribution on those finance topics, as you are obviously knowledgeable about accounting/finance, but passing off some very subjective statements about Ashley as facts that cannot be debated has got my back up a bit. I apologise if an opinion that doesn't tally with your "objective" view of the world offends you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Defending the good Ashley has done is the football equivalent of praising Mussolini for his public works programs. It beggars belief. Ashley is a fat cockney c*nt who is milking money out of this club and we were far better off under Shepherd. Feel better? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 At this point, I don't care how financially stable he has made the club. This motherfucker has essentially brought in the fifth column to undermine the club and the supporters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Defending the good Ashley has done is the football equivalent of praising Mussolini for his public works programs. It beggars belief. Ashley is a fat cockney c*nt who is milking money out of this club and we were far better off under Shepherd. Feel better? Debatable Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 At this point, I don't care how financially stable he has made the club. This motherfucker has essentially brought in the fifth column to undermine the club and the supporters. The financial stability argument itself is quite flawed as well tbh. To be honest, I find it hard to imagine any new owner taking over from Shepherd could have done much worse in the 7 year period since Ashley took over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Did I ever claim we were far better off? You're the one trembling about somebody worse possibly coming in to replace this cunt. Fair enough, I suppose, but in my 20 years as a supporter, I have never seen so many people so apathetic toward NUFC. The passion in this club is gone, gone, gone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Unless you're a fan of finances, specifically who we owe money to (quite a bit more bothered about football myself) then I can't see how we're any better off. We're far less ambitious, far less prestigious, no more stable and suffer almost constant embarrassment including the ultimate shame of relegation. We were something, now we're nothing. 100% this. Our average league position in Ashley's tenure is lower than in the period before he took over. To suggest it isn't debatable if we have made progress is quite frankly laughable. Unfortunately our resident balance sheet fan has given up on trying to explain with arguments his opinions presented as fact. Am interested in who you are referring to and why you say that. Are you for real? I hardly ever see you post about anything other than finances. I like you as a poster, and I certainly value your contribution on those finance topics, as you are obviously knowledgeable about accounting/finance, but passing off some very subjective statements about Ashley as facts that cannot be debated has got my back up a bit. I apologise if an opinion that doesn't tally with your "objective" view of the world offends you. Am for real. Thanks for the stuff about my financial posts, but I am at the end of the day a NUFC football fan believe it or not. This is a forum for opinions and I freely admit I have punted one or two out there tonight. But no one has really knocked back anything I have said. There have been worse Premiership owners than Ashley, our previous regime had reached a point where the 2006 intake of players can hardly be described as ambitious etc. Not offended btw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenrot Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 The passion in this club is gone, gone, gone. That is the face of it all really. Mike Ashley has turned NUFC into something that is no longer something to be proud of. It is a toxic brand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppaz Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Wow people seem upset. Myself I hate Ashley but I balance it with with a range of facts. We are 3 quality players away from being a good side on paper aside from the manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Unless you're a fan of finances, specifically who we owe money to (quite a bit more bothered about football myself) then I can't see how we're any better off. We're far less ambitious, far less prestigious, no more stable and suffer almost constant embarrassment including the ultimate shame of relegation. We were something, now we're nothing. 100% this. Our average league position in Ashley's tenure is lower than in the period before he took over. To suggest it isn't debatable if we have made progress is quite frankly laughable. Unfortunately our resident balance sheet fan has given up on trying to explain with arguments his opinions presented as fact. Am interested in who you are referring to and why you say that. Are you for real? I hardly ever see you post about anything other than finances. I like you as a poster, and I certainly value your contribution on those finance topics, as you are obviously knowledgeable about accounting/finance, but passing off some very subjective statements about Ashley as facts that cannot be debated has got my back up a bit. I apologise if an opinion that doesn't tally with your "objective" view of the world offends you. Am for real. Thanks for the stuff about my financial posts, but I am at the end of the day a NUFC football fan believe it or not. This is a forum for opinions and I freely admit I have punted one or two out there tonight. But no one has really knocked back anything I have said. There have been worse Premiership owners than Ashley, our previous regime had reached a point where the 2006 intake of players can hardly be described as ambitious etc. Not offended btw. I think you will find not many people agree with you on those statements, especially the second one. Look, the one thing that Ashley seems to gave sorted is not wasting huge sums of money on players without resale value, and even then, from a footballing perspective financial frugality only benefits us as supporters directly if these savings are invested more wisely in the playing squad, which they currently aren't. Other than that, I struggle to see how we are far better off than before he took over (your words) by any measure. We are worse off in terms of (average) league position, club reputation, non-TV revenue (in absolute terms, but certainly relative to our competitors) and to top it off we have a management structure and personnel that would make many a Championship club blush with shame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest elbee909 Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Wow people seem upset. Myself I hate Ashley but I balance it with with a range of facts. We are 3 quality players away from being a good side on paper aside from the manager. 16 years ago this month, we beat Barcelona 3-2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Wow people seem upset. Myself I hate Ashley but I balance it with with a range of facts. We are 3 quality players away from being a good side on paper aside from the manager. We are a few injuries away from being relegation candidates as well. A good first team (on paper no less) does not a good squad make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucaAltieri Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 I don't necessarily like Ashley's way of handling some things. Hiring Kinnear as a fall guy. Deliberately being deceptive with the fans, etc. But in general, broad terms, I like that we're trying to sign young, hungry players. I like that we're stocking our youth ranks, I like that we're making sure we squeeze every penny out of transfer deals, I like that we're hanging on to our best players unless we receive silly money, and I like the appointment of Pardew - what he lacks in football terms he more than makes up for with harmonizing the club from players to board. My one, massive, objection is the way we're handling our youth team. We might be buying in promising young'uns but how many of them look like they're going to be anywhere near good enough? I want to see talent that we've developed make its way into the first team. Sammy looks like he's doing that. Carroll managed it. But aside from those exceptions we're not really seeing it. We've had too many promising young players come in then disappear or end up being sold to lower league teams. We need to change our approach to getting these players to kick on or the whole model is rather pointless. Whatever we're doing now isn't working. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenrot Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Wow people seem upset. Myself I hate Ashley but I balance it with with a range of facts. We are 3 quality players away from being a good side on paper aside from the manager. 16 years ago this month, we beat Barcelona 3-2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Unless you're a fan of finances, specifically who we owe money to (quite a bit more bothered about football myself) then I can't see how we're any better off. We're far less ambitious, far less prestigious, no more stable and suffer almost constant embarrassment including the ultimate shame of relegation. We were something, now we're nothing. 100% this. Our average league position in Ashley's tenure is lower than in the period before he took over. To suggest it isn't debatable if we have made progress is quite frankly laughable. Unfortunately our resident balance sheet fan has given up on trying to explain with arguments his opinions presented as fact. Am interested in who you are referring to and why you say that. Are you for real? I hardly ever see you post about anything other than finances. I like you as a poster, and I certainly value your contribution on those finance topics, as you are obviously knowledgeable about accounting/finance, but passing off some very subjective statements about Ashley as facts that cannot be debated has got my back up a bit. I apologise if an opinion that doesn't tally with your "objective" view of the world offends you. Am for real. Thanks for the stuff about my financial posts, but I am at the end of the day a NUFC football fan believe it or not. This is a forum for opinions and I freely admit I have punted one or two out there tonight. But no one has really knocked back anything I have said. There have been worse Premiership owners than Ashley, our previous regime had reached a point where the 2006 intake of players can hardly be described as ambitious etc. Not offended btw. I think you will find not many people agree with you on those statements, especially the second one. Look, the one thing that Ashley seems to gave sorted is not wasting huge sums of money on players without resale value, and even then, from a footballing perspective financial frugality only benefits us as supporters directly if these savings are invested more wisely in the playing squad, which they currently aren't. Other than that, I struggle to see how we are far better off than before he took over (your words) by any measure. We are worse off in terms of (average) league position, club reputation, non-TV revenue (in absolute terms, but certainly relative to our competitors) and to top it off we have a management structure and personnel that would make many Championship club blush with shame. Without doubt our current management structure is embarrassing, probably worse than that tbh. Your point about the average league position is statistically accurate. But imo we were f*cked in the summer of 2007, I have explained why elsewhere on this forum. And I have (I hope) explained my frustrations with what Ashley is doing and especially the utter rubbish that was the last transfer window. The trouble is if anyone puts anything up on here that doesn't conform to the "Ashley is Satan and anyone who doesn't agree is beyond belief " view you get trashed unfortunately. He is Satan but there are other factors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Wow people seem upset. Myself I hate Ashley but I balance it with with a range of facts. We are 3 quality players away from being a good side on paper aside from the manager. We need three quality players and a new manager to be a good side on paper? And that's a good thing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 That is a strange thing to say when we've just had 3 months to buy 3 players and change manager, and didn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 I don't necessarily like Ashley's way of handling some things. Hiring Kinnear as a fall guy. Deliberately being deceptive with the fans, etc. But in general, broad terms, I like that we're trying to sign young, hungry players. I like that we're stocking our youth ranks, I like that we're making sure we squeeze every penny out of transfer deals, I like that we're hanging on to our best players unless we receive silly money, and I like the appointment of Pardew - what he lacks in football terms he more than makes up for with harmonizing the club from players to board. This is just a bizarre paragraph. You like that we've got a crap manager because he "makes up for it with harmonizing the club"? Are we a football team or a fucking old folk's home? I've missed all these young, hungry players too - we sign players because they're cheap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 I don't necessarily like Ashley's way of handling some things. Hiring Kinnear as a fall guy. Deliberately being deceptive with the fans, etc. But in general, broad terms, I like that we're trying to sign young, hungry players. I like that we're stocking our youth ranks, I like that we're making sure we squeeze every penny out of transfer deals, I like that we're hanging on to our best players unless we receive silly money, and I like the appointment of Pardew - what he lacks in football terms he more than makes up for with harmonizing the club from players to board. This is just a bizarre paragraph. You like that we've got a crap manager because he "makes up for it with harmonizing the club"? Are we a football team or a f***ing old folk's home? I've missed all these young, hungry players too - we sign players because they're cheap. To an extent, but our back four cost approx £30m, I doubt there's many outside the usual suspects who've spent that. Two of them bought in their prime, two of them signed with great potential. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucaAltieri Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 I don't necessarily like Ashley's way of handling some things. Hiring Kinnear as a fall guy. Deliberately being deceptive with the fans, etc. But in general, broad terms, I like that we're trying to sign young, hungry players. I like that we're stocking our youth ranks, I like that we're making sure we squeeze every penny out of transfer deals, I like that we're hanging on to our best players unless we receive silly money, and I like the appointment of Pardew - what he lacks in football terms he more than makes up for with harmonizing the club from players to board. This is just a bizarre paragraph. You like that we've got a crap manager because he "makes up for it with harmonizing the club"? Are we a football team or a fucking old folk's home? I've missed all these young, hungry players too - we sign players because they're cheap. We sign young players (or players with something to prove) in general because they're cheap. That's the reason behind the approach. But we try to pick up promising players with the intention of getting them into the first team. Simpson, Bassong, Bigi, Ranger, Perch, Tiote... signed because they showed promise. No one we have signed was signed exclusively because they were cheap. Pardew isn't a crap manager, in my opinion. He's middle of the road in terms of football, but he's a very good man manager. However brilliant some other managers might be, if they want a giant transfer budget, or aren't happy with leaving the signing of players up to the scouts and the board, then we'll have the instability that goes with it. Pardew is a great fit for our recruitment system. Having someone who is better at the football side but doesn't like the way the club operates is only great until they walk out, then we're fucked. Padrew isn't fucking off anywhere. He knew the deal when he signed up and he's perfectly capable of delivering within our expectations. I'd rather have issues with the manger's use of subs than seeing our own players fight in the middle of the pitch or any of the other soap opera shite we're used to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 People still taking Luca seriously? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UV Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 It should be fairly easy to get facts about how much debt to Mike Ashley we have. It is - but only up to 30th June 2012. Well that's all we can go on really, what is in the accounts. If he pockets all the new TV money than that's a different matter. In the accounts there is £111 million of loan that is long term - i.e due after more than one year. That has now been there for several years. As at June 2012 he had loaned the club an additional £29 million during 2011 and 2012 to buy players and meet short term cash commitments. This additional amount was short term, repayable within one year.. The accounts show he had already received £11 million back, and we can probably assume he's had the remaining £18 million back by now. He's not going to get his loan back anytime soon if that pattern continues The additional £29m from Ashley came in the 09-10 Championship season and was required because the bank wouldn't allow the club to continue to have a £36m overdraft outside the Prem. Player sales on relegation (and income from previous player sales) covered the revenue fall in the Championship season so there was practically no increase in the net debt, it merely transferred from the bank to Ashley. He certainly didn't put in any money during 2011 and 2012 to buy players. The entire debt to Ashley is in the accounts (and was pre-relegation too) as payable within one year. Whether Ashley regards the £29m as special and will stop using profits to pay off the loan once this is recouped is speculation. Unfortunately for Ashley, I think the unanticipated, forced January spend will have put paid to any plans to pay off any significant amount of the loan last year. You're certainly right though that the way he is running the club, he is going to be unable to pay off much debt anytime soon unless very little of the additional TV revenue gets spent on fees & wages for the foreseeable future, or we pull quite a few more Milners & Carrolls out of the hat. I'm not sure that qualifies for a smiley though. For reference: 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Ashley Loan00100000111000139800140000129000 Overdraft55281086398735781103890343 Stadium Loan474414508900000 Other Loans17248230366067323619600 Cash at bank and in hand9309930900095150 Net debt6090869679107054150017150385130485129343Debt increase/decrease87713737542963368-19900-1142 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Overdraft55281086398735781103890343 Repayable within one year10867616752939114056123496140000129000 Repayable in the first to second years775331271030521961650000 Repayable in the second to fifth years1741033231960000 Repayable after five years28659000000 BTW Some people have said that finding out the loans were repayable on change of ownership meant Ashley had to rethink his plans and changed how he was going to run the club. Only the Stadium loan was repayable on change of ownership, which was around £45m. Ashley chose to repay the other loans, and he also chose to move to a system of paying up front for players brought in while receiving payments in instalments for players we sold (part of the reason the net debt rocketed in the first couple of years). He had the money to take on the debt, and it benefited both him and the club. It's pretty obvious he would have paid off the stadium loan regardless of any clause. What accounts are you looking at? As I type this I have in front of me the 2012 accounts of Newcastle United Limited (company number 2529667) and the disclosure of Ashley's debt is exactly as I have described it. £111 million is long term (more than one year) and £18 million is short term (less than one year). It makes me wonder about the veracity of some of the other stuff in your posts but I can't be ars*d to go into it tbh. I've spent too much time arguing about numbers on here over the years. I was going by this: http://i44.tinypic.com/256e9sy.png It does however appear that this is contradicted in section 12. http://i40.tinypic.com/2gsefq1.png That's the first year since the 2009 accounts where it is not stated that the bulk of the loan is to be repaid within 1 year or on demand. As you've been looking at the 2012 accounts above you can see that it was the case for 2011. I'll edit the table so that it's accurate for future reference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucaAltieri Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 People still taking Luca seriously? I should hope so. N-O can use the opinion of someone who isn't a delusional manic depressive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 So why bother, then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Pardew's a fucking awful man-manager. Good man-managers get their players brimming with confidence, not negativity and fear. I agree the players seem to like him as a person - that's not really a virtue as a football manager, in the slightest. My favourite managers have been the ones that let me get away with the most. As for him being a great fit for our recruitment policy, words fail me. We buy players totally unsuited to how he wants to play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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