Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 His best game this season was against QPR, without Ba, Cisse and Tiote. Without Cabaye too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. Thanks for this Wullie, I'm past getting pissed off about people expecting too much of him now and thinking he needs to be dropped. It's just disappointing that people never look at things in longer terms. The lad is bursting with talent and is the most exciting player we have, yes he needs to fit more into the team but how do we pull that off without him in it? The lad can't do much wrong for me because his style of play is exactly what we need Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 It's all about movement with him. That reverse pass he plays is absolutely fantastic and very hard to defend against because the defender basically has to be looking at two things at once, one in front of him and one behind him, but it depends very much on the movement and subsequent ability of the player you're playing it to as well. Best and Simpson have both wasted being slid in on goal recently and Shola's never going to give a player enough options to do that in a month of Sundays. Look at the subtle pass for Ba against West Brom - if Shola was playing, that would have ended up looking like a ridiculous ball into nowhere, where Ba was quick to spot it coming in behind him and even quicker to belt it past the goalkeeper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. Thanks for this Wullie, I'm past getting p*ssed off about people expecting too much of him now and thinking he needs to be dropped. It's just disappointing that people never look at things in longer terms. The lad is bursting with talent and is the most exciting player we have, yes he needs to fit more into the team but how do we pull that off without him in it? The lad can't do much wrong for me because his style of play is exactly what we need The problem is that's not exactly Pardew's view. It's a "vicious circle". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a shit 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. Agree entirely. Top post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a shit 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I don't think anybody can debate that he gives the ball away more than other players. Shola may be the one exception, but he tends to do so in more advanced areas. Also, he's Shola. As for defensive support, it's not a matter of skill or effort (although I doubt he's got much of a tackle on him), it's a matter of position. He's going to (rightfully) be staying in areas where he won't be available to offer defensive support. I disagree. It depends what you mean by giving the ball away. If you mean only when a player tries to dribble then of course coz no other f***er except maybe Jonas and occasionally Best dribbles. Why should a long ball that is headed away by the opponent's center back not be considered as 'giving the ball away'? Not quite sure on your point of defensive support, of course in terms of positioning all attacking players by default should be staying high up the pitch when we have the ball so that they emm attack. The point is when we lose the ball, HBA is no different from other players in tracking his opposite number or moving down to help the defence Aside from the fact that it happens for frequently, there's an obvious qualitative difference here. For the former, everyone is in an attacking position and very vulnerable to counterattacks. For the latter, there is time and space to recover. The second point is just wrong imo. On average HBA always occupies more advanced position than his counterparts in similar areas of the pitch So by that logic unless we buy a Messi who won't lose the ball when he tries a dribble, we should just resort to hoofing the ball up because of this qualitative difference that you mentioned never mind that our long balls have rarely ever worked. On the positioning, can't agree with you. I don't see any difference with HBA, when we have the ball, he is generally in the right wing position, in fact sometimes he comes to the right middle of the field to get the ball and when we don't have the ball, he does his fair share of defending. Surely he does not have a great tackle, but same goes for Obertan, you're still not acknowledging the relative argument that unless we have someone better, it's just pointless arguing to drop him unless Obertan can replicate the form he showed in the last few minutes against Blackburn over a much longer period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a shit 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. How is it a straw man when they're the alternatives and the Villa match thread is chock full of people saying they'd play Obertan? I never mentioned Shola in relation to starting in front of him. And he was no more "abysmally bad" against Brighton or Blackburn than any of our other attacking players were. He created our best chance against Brighton for a start, in a dismal performance from every player and I really fail to see what he did against Blackburn that "highlighted his weaknesses", can you tell me? The game I saw, we spent the entire first half defending on our 18 yard line, clearing it when we had the chance, rinse and repeat. He had one moment where he dummied the full back and his touch was too heavy and it went out for a goal kick... is that it? Ironically that was probably our best chance of the half, and I include the goal in that. I'd also say that I had absolutely no problem with him being withdrawn against Blackburn as a tactical change, though most people seem to have taken this event and run with it to a point where his withdrawal suggests he was disgracefully bad - he wasn't, he hardly touched the ball, we didn't have it for long enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingcrofty Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Bit sad that he's becoming the 'target' for abuse when we don't create much. Always bound to happen when you only have one creative player though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He needs players that can keep the ball for more than 2 minutes and tactics that suit him and allow him a bit of freedom, more than he needs some movement ahead of him. Since Fulham we've played highly tactical football and he's barely got a touch of the ball. His best game was at Blackburn in the cup, that second half he was right midfield in a 4-4-2 and played very well, we don't need to over-complicate things to fit him in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Logic Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a shit 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Logic Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 And he was no more "abysmally bad" against Brighton or Blackburn than any of our other attacking players were. He created our best chance against Brighton for a start, in a dismal performance from every player and I really fail to see what he did against Blackburn that "highlighted his weaknesses", can you tell me? The game I saw, we spent the entire first half defending on our 18 yard line, clearing it when we had the chance, rinse and repeat. He had one moment where he dummied the full back and his touch was too heavy and it went out for a goal kick... is that it? Ironically that was probably our best chance of the half, and I include the goal in that. I'd also say that I had absolutely no problem with him being withdrawn against Blackburn as a tactical change, though most people seem to have taken this event and run with it to a point where his withdrawal suggests he was disgracefully bad - he wasn't, he hardly touched the ball, we didn't have it for long enough. And this. :thup: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlacknWhiteArmy Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Good posts, mate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Bit sad that he's becoming the 'target' for abuse when we don't create much. Always bound to happen when you only have one creative player though. It's a legacy of the hustle and bustle of the PL that truly gifted players are seen as misfits of a sort, just because it is a bit harder to synthesise them into the overall play (breakneck end to end). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I don't think anybody can debate that he gives the ball away more than other players. Shola may be the one exception, but he tends to do so in more advanced areas. Also, he's Shola. As for defensive support, it's not a matter of skill or effort (although I doubt he's got much of a tackle on him), it's a matter of position. He's going to (rightfully) be staying in areas where he won't be available to offer defensive support. He gives the ball away because there's no one making a run into a good space so he often takes it on himself rather than pass it sideways or backwards. As for the defensive positioning, personally I'm sick of seeing him running back to our own half or starting in midfield. Take Shola out of the side and play him as a no 10 striker and let the midfielders worry about the defending would be my suggestion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I'm not a great fan of Alan Pardew and his vision of football (and I think HBA really suffers from his coach approach) but I'll back him if Ben Arfa is on the bench against Aston Villa. Hatem deserves a little lesson after his two last games. Even if many of the newcastle players were s***, he should be able to do better than what he showed. He should be able to elevate the team level of play. He should grow up once and for all. He's very tiresome sometimes. How I agree with you especially the cup match but I must say that this is not helped with the rod SHOLA I hope it will get better with the return of BA and Cissé tahia Tounes http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7305/alternativetohandshakin.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENKAAA Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Some idiots ringing up about HBA on total sport tonight, about how he never tracks back and is lazy etc etc. I texted in saying its total bs but they didn't read out my text. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I think he's great. One of the best players we've got. He's certainly not lazy and tries to track back all the time. He just isn't very good at it and rarely makes an incisive challenge. Well worth persisting with for being far and away the most creative player we've got. He might be in and out - but players like that are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Don't know why some people bother getting excited about good players playing for Newcastle, all they do is moan about work rate, as if Robin van Persie is charging around in his own box. Do these people think Man City's team is all graft for 500 million pound? I'd find it funny if it wasn't fucking frustrating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliassenfredrik Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 FFS. Is it so fucking hard to separate players like HBA and defensive minded players with ditto duties in their game? Unbelievable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 FFS. Is it so f***ing hard to separate players like HBA and defensive minded players with ditto duties in their game? Unbelievable. I'm not sure what that mines, but think i might agree Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I can absolutely guarantee it'll be the same knackers who were on last week having a whinge about Jonas having no end product btw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I can absolutely guarantee it'll be the same knackers who were on last week having a whinge about Jonas having no end product btw. Jonas AND Ben Arfa? Must be Christmas Tree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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