Guest reefatoon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 The whole point is that there's no need to change, but some people might prefer a different style. It's a valid point, obviously it's also fine to say "let's try and keep going with what has worked so far". Nobody is saying anything is drastically wrong. I agree Ian, I am not arguing with anyone or anything like that (just having a good discussion). But I would just like to understand the reasons for a new style, because the only reason I am seeing so far is to accommodate 1 player in the team and that is Ben Arfa. I just don't understand why we should change the whole formation of the team for one player, especially when we are doing so well at the moment. For me that player (any player not just Ben Arfa) would need to fit into our system so we can keep on moving forward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest H09 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 The 4-3-2-1 formation defensively was crap we shouldn't go back to it. The players infront of the back 4 did not have a clue what their responsbilities were. Whenever the opposition came down the wing there was either no extra protection for the full back or one of the central 2 got pulled out wide leaving space in the middle and other players wandering around. The high line in that formation also made both Simpson and Santon beaten easily a couple of times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VaVaVoom Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Listen....I would prefer us to play 442 with Barfa ripping it up on the wing. I would love it if AP put the trust in him. I dont think 433 would work. That involves us using Jonas as a CM or dropping him and i dont want to see that. 4231 is more expansive, more fluid and is easily interchangable to a 442. Mixing it up is a good thing. We are 5th and one point off 4th and im delighted but lets be honest...We have not played great football much this season have we? Im just in favour of us trying to find a system where we can become "the entertainers" again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VaVaVoom Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 The 4-3-2-1 formation defensively was crap we shouldn't go back to it. The players infront of the back 4 did not have a clue what their responsbilities were. Whenever the opposition came down the wing there was either no extra protection for the full back or one of the central 2 got pulled out wide leaving space in the middle and other players wandering around. The high line in that formation also made both Simpson and Santon beaten easily a couple of times. We tried it whilst we were missing 3 or 4 key players mate. Timing was wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Listen....I would prefer us to play 442 with Barfa ripping it up on the wing. I would love it if AP put the trust in him. I dont think 433 would work. That involves us using Jonas as a CM or dropping him and i dont want to see that. 4231 is more expansive, more fluid and is easily interchangable to a 442. Mixing it up is a good thing. We are 5th and one point off 4th and im delighted but lets be honest...We have not played great football much this season have we? Im just in favour of us trying to find a system where we can become "the entertainers" again. Agreed i would like to see this also, another thing about the 4-3-3 is it forces Ba outwide which is simply insane...... Mind you having said all of this to play the 4-2-3-1/4-4-2 to its utmost potential with Ben Arfa in the side we need two quality fullbacks...... It's been said before but this summer is huge for us to see where we will end up long term; if we are able to make some cheap astute signings, sign some of the current stars on long term contracts and ofcourse Alan Smith will be sodding off the wage bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 From Lee Ryder's webchat : I think if they got a decent cash bid for HBA they'd take it. He's a player that needs constant attention. NUFC prefer grafters like Ryan Taylor and Leon Best. That's the truth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Ryder doesn't know anything though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reefatoon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Listen....I would prefer us to play 442 with Barfa ripping it up on the wing. I would love it if AP put the trust in him. I dont think 433 would work. That involves us using Jonas as a CM or dropping him and i dont want to see that. 4231 is more expansive, more fluid and is easily interchangable to a 442. Mixing it up is a good thing. We are 5th and one point off 4th and im delighted but lets be honest...We have not played great football much this season have we? Im just in favour of us trying to find a system where we can become "the entertainers" again. Hhmm, I am happy to discard "the entertainers" tag for finishing in Europe, or even the Champions league. Bring on this "not played great football" if it is getting us back into Europe. I know I am enjoying it immensely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BEN BEN BEN ARFA Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I think he'll get more playing time with Best out injured. I'd also be more happy with him in the side with Tiote and Cabaye back in midfield and the control/protection they offer the defence. I think the latter part is important. It is clear that while Barfa has the magic to turn games he loses the ball far too much and puts the team in trouble. Having Tiote the destroyer back and Cabaye to control the midfield gives us that extra insurance to be able to afford Barfa in the side. We need him in the side. We now have two fantastic strikers and we need to get quality service into them. Cabaye and Barfa are key to this and while they are creating, Jonas and Tiote will be protecting. Ben Arfa will only get better if he gets a solid run in the team, a bit of trust put in him from AP and that hasnt happened yet but i do think it will once we have our strongest CM pairing back. If he doesnt get that chance from now till the end of the season i can see him leaving in the summer unfortunatly. Can we get the statistics that you say and compare them with other players because it has kept some marseille discour and even when we showed them the truth was statstique any other and I think even he has made progress on the defensive withdrawal beware of received ideas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I've been calling for a 4-3-3 all season, but with the signing of Papiss Cisse it just isn't our best formation anymore. HBA's only hope of making it back into the squad is if he can pull off left wing ahead of Jonas (worth a try imo) 4-2-3-1 is the best system for us IMO...... Simpson Williamson Colo Santon Tiote Cabaye Ben Arfa Ba Jonas Cisse Ba drops deep into midfield to help out the midfield two anyway so i dont see the problem with it, obviously changes to 4-4-2 when we are on the attack....... The percieved problem with Ben Arfa's lack of work rate is quite frankly a non issue with Ba dropping in midfield and Cabaye and Tiote protecting the defence. I understand why Pardew wouldnt want Ben Arfa with Perch and Guthrie in midfield and Best and Shola upfront but with Tiote, Cabaye and Ba i dont see an argument tbh. Also Cisse works very hard off the ball aswell. Again, why move Ba anywhere? He has been nothing short of magnificent for us in the exact role he is playing, he has also scored 16 goals, why would you mess with that? He is a striker that comes deep, playing him anywhere else from that position is going to affect both us and him. We now have 2 great strikers, so for me the perfect logic is play them both upfront. he plays there anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Come on, he is not one for working back!!!! Once again, the problem with HBA is less his lack of track back than his lack of consistency on his strenghts ( i.e. destabilize the defensive balance of the opposing team) If he can deliver constantly games like that one he played against QPR, if he can be decisive regularly, nobody will complain about him not working back ala Jonas (that's not his role) That's the only sector of his football that need a real improvement, and it's more a psychological factor than anything else... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lush Vlad Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 From Lee Ryder's webchat : I think if they got a decent cash bid for HBA they'd take it. He's a player that needs constant attention. NUFC prefer grafters like Ryan Taylor and Leon Best. That's the truth. Ryder doesn't know anything though. Quite literally doesn't know anything. Probably just his own opinions and a bit of a guess at what the general feeling might be. Some of his tweets are a disgrace and embarrassing and what about blog on the tyne I've also seen him championing Ryan Taylor an awful lot lately, saying he should be in with a shout of getting player of the year Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest je85 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 If we get a decent enough cash bid for pretty much anyone then they'll take it so nothing surprising there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 He's an utter plum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthiGeordie Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I am tired of all this argument about HBA. When the team perform magic as a team is it fair to say all this one single player. Clearly an old NUFC era mentality worshiping single player over others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Our fullbacks are weak defensively. We create enough chances for a couple goals a game. No need for all this change. Really? I dont think we NEED to change but i think it would be progression for the group and our brand of football will benefit from it in the long run. I'd want to see us give it a try when key players are back and see how it goes but i'd like to think that with a new FB in the summer the 4231 would be our starting tactic on the 1st day of next season. Davide had a total mare at Fulham with no protection and we all know about Backoff Danny. 4-2-3-1 is not progression but a total 360 in philosophy. Discipline, hard work and moments of quality from our players has got us this far so I see little point in changing. If we need to go for it, HBA & Guthrie should play in our 4-4-2. We could do with more carpet football i agree. But within a 4-4-2 most times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxfree Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 From Lee Ryder's webchat : I think if they got a decent cash bid for HBA they'd take it. He's a player that needs constant attention. NUFC prefer grafters like Ryan Taylor and Leon Best. That's the truth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 We need another CM and a better full back than Simpson to field a decent 4-3-3 IMO. I'm torn on it, I really feel weird about moving Ba after how well he's done up front. I do think it could potentially work very well though. Exactly. Our best player is Ba. I want him to keep doing what he's been doing. Don't want to fanny about with him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 He would be fine in a 4-4-2 if given more of a chance. The only time we played him in it, he dragged us back into the game and played very well and we won. Yet since then, we've seen a complete formation change to accomodate him, why? It's unfair and very short-termist to expect our striker(s) to perform at such high levels when we don't create a lot for them. We have a midfield that is littered with quality but they don't produce or create enough and that will have to change if we want to stay where we are for more than a season. Ba might score 5 goals less this time next year (if he is here) and where would that leave us? While Cisse looks promising, he's an unknown quantity and might be the type that needs a couple of really clear cut chances to put the ball in the back of the net. Don't be fooled by Freiburg's position, they weren't bad when it came to creating. To put it simply, we're a team of very fine margins right now. Overall it's a frustrating situation to see the likes of Ryan Taylor and Obertan ahead of him, they offer so much less from that position (in my opinion). While I can see the thinking behind it at times, as it is appropriate in certain matches, i'm more from the traditional school of thought, where particularly at home you attack the opposition to win the game, especially if they're not as good a team as you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 From Lee Ryder's webchat : I think if they got a decent cash bid for HBA they'd take it. He's a player that needs constant attention. NUFC prefer grafters like Ryan Taylor and Leon Best. That's the truth. Ryder doesn't know anything though. Quite literally doesn't know anything. Probably just his own opinions and a bit of a guess at what the general feeling might be. Some of his tweets are a disgrace and embarrassing and what about blog on the tyne I've also seen him championing Ryan Taylor an awful lot lately, saying he should be in with a shout of getting player of the year Ryder is quite frankly, one of the worst journalists to have ever graced the North East. Chief Sports Editor for the Chronicle ffs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VaVaVoom Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Our fullbacks are weak defensively. We create enough chances for a couple goals a game. No need for all this change. Really? I dont think we NEED to change but i think it would be progression for the group and our brand of football will benefit from it in the long run. I'd want to see us give it a try when key players are back and see how it goes but i'd like to think that with a new FB in the summer the 4231 would be our starting tactic on the 1st day of next season. Davide had a total mare at Fulham with no protection and we all know about Backoff Danny. 4-2-3-1 is not progression but a total 360 in philosophy. Discipline, hard work and moments of quality from our players has got us this far so I see little point in changing. If we need to go for it, HBA & Guthrie should play in our 4-4-2. We could do with more carpet football i agree. But within a 4-4-2 most times. 4231 is so much different to 442 or 4411 eh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 From Lee Ryder's webchat : I think if they got a decent cash bid for HBA they'd take it. He's a player that needs constant attention. NUFC prefer grafters like Ryan Taylor and Leon Best. That's the truth. Ryder doesn't know anything though. Quite literally doesn't know anything. Probably just his own opinions and a bit of a guess at what the general feeling might be. Some of his tweets are a disgrace and embarrassing and what about blog on the tyne I've also seen him championing Ryan Taylor an awful lot lately, saying he should be in with a shout of getting player of the year Ryder is quite frankly, one of the worst journalists to have ever graced the North East. Chief Sports Editor for the Chronicle ffs Ok But he's right when he says he's a player that needs constant attention. While he was still in recovery from his injury, Pardew was saying that he's the kind of player who needs to speak a lot with his coach, and If you read my first posts on here, I thought at that time that Pardew was THE perfect man for HBA, the one who will use a psychological and sensitive approach with the lad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Logic Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Pardew really sems to struggle with how to use Ben Arfa, either down to a too strict work ethic viewpoint and/or the lack of players he would want around/behind him. When we are defending set pieces, for example, I would have Ben Arfa as the sole outlet near the halfway line. Both Ba and Cisse are valuable headers of the ball in such a situation. There were at least three occasions yesterday when Obertan could have released a quick pass into space for Cisse but chose to run with the ball, my feeling is Ben Arfa would have made at least two of those passes. I was also paying particular attention to Jonas and how many times he lost the ball, at least as many times as Ben Arfa - his work ethic covers for him though. So all we need is a world class right back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Pardew really sems to struggle with how to use Ben Arfa, either down to a too strict work ethic viewpoint and/or the lack of players he would want around/behind him. When we are defending set pieces, for example, I would have Ben Arfa as the sole outlet near the halfway line. Both Ba and Cisse are valuable headers of the ball in such a situation. There were at least three occasions yesterday when Obertan could have released a quick pass into space for Cisse but chose to run with the ball, my feeling is Ben Arfa would have made at least two of those passes. I was also paying particular attention to Jonas and how many times he lost the ball, at least as many times as Ben Arfa - his work ethic covers for him though. So all we need is a world class right back. He should take each chance he's given to play like it was his last game. So Hatem, don't let him the choice, just be constant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I can't see any end result other than Ben Arfa's departure by next season. In the matches he's played we've generally been under strength and he's struggled to adapt to our long ball game which is mostly what we've played if we are honest about it. Now that Cisse is here I can't see us finding a place for him, especially as Pardew has sort of hinted that he's a bit of a high maintenance player. He's a very gifted player no doubt but I just don't see him fitting our current style of play, and by the time Cabaye and Tiote are back I think he'll be out of the reckoning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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