Unbelievable Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I find it odd that his track record of scoring goals for years doesn't really count any more, and that we're now unsure what constitutes the "real" Cisse. Very odd. Especially since track record is so, so important whenever we want to criticise someone. I'm not criticising his past record, I'm analysing his performance so far this season and coming to the conclusion that it's at the level of his ability or where we need it to be. Nobody is saying he is shit or we should look to replace him as far as I can see, but some people ARE becoming tired of waiting for him to magically click into form whilst his underperformance can not be openly discussed without name calling or being accused of negativism. I can't speak for College Dropout, but I love the bloke as a person and enjoyed every minute of that magical first few months with us, but that doesn't stop me from saying it as I see it. I'm still confident he can find form and be that striker he promised to be, but I'm past blind hope at this point and openly worrying if it will happen this season at all. If some people can't handle a few critical questions with regards to their perceived darlings than so be it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I find it odd that his track record of scoring goals for years doesn't really count any more, and that we're now unsure what constitutes the "real" Cisse. Very odd. Especially since track record is so, so important whenever we want to criticise someone. I'm not criticising his past record, I'm analysing his performance so far this season and coming to the conclusion that it's at the level of his ability or where we need it to be. Nobody is saying he is shit or we should look to replace him as far as I can see, but some people ARE becoming tired of waiting for him to magically click into form whilst his underperformance can not be openly discussed without name calling or being accused of negativism. I can't speak for College Dropout, but I love the bloke as a person and enjoyed every minute of that magical first few months with us, but that doesn't stop me from saying it as I see it. I'm still confident he can find form and be that striker he promised to be, but I'm past blind hope at this point and openly worrying if it will happen this season at all. If some people can't handle a few critical questions with regards to their perceived darlings than so be it. I don't why you have to use such ridiculous exaggeration and stereotyping other people's views. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Yeah, Carroll is a great example of someone who has scored consistently for a number of years. Missed the wink then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I do think that not acknowledging that Cisse's poor season is a serious problem that may not remedy itself given a bit more time, is pretty much equally as myopic as stating that he is now the next Torres. The length of his poor form is not an insignificant amount of time. [And as a side note, the offside statistic on the last page is daft IMO. Being in an offside position and being flagged for an offside (and recorded in a statistic) because someone passes to you are two different things entirely. I wouldn't deign to compare his positional sense to Benteke as I haven't seen nearly enough of Benteke to make any such judgement, but I've seen more than enough of Cisse this season to know that his awareness of offside this season has been about as good as Shola on horse tranquillisers. Admitting that doesn't make you a heretic/Cisse-hater/mean you have an agenda -it just means you've watched him play and formed an opinion]. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I find it odd that his track record of scoring goals for years doesn't really count any more, and that we're now unsure what constitutes the "real" Cisse. Very odd. Especially since track record is so, so important whenever we want to criticise someone. I'm not criticising his past record, I'm analysing his performance so far this season and coming to the conclusion that it's at the level of his ability or where we need it to be. Nobody is saying he is s*** or we should look to replace him as far as I can see, but some people ARE becoming tired of waiting for him to magically click into form whilst his underperformance can not be openly discussed without name calling or being accused of negativism. I can't speak for College Dropout, but I love the bloke as a person and enjoyed every minute of that magical first few months with us, but that doesn't stop me from saying it as I see it. I'm still confident he can find form and be that striker he promised to be, but I'm past blind hope at this point and openly worrying if it will happen this season at all. If some people can't handle a few critical questions with regards to their perceived darlings than so be it. I don't why you have to use such ridiculous exaggeration and stereotyping other people's views. That's a fair enough statement, but I'm not the only one doing it. Plenty of people on the other side of the argument are ridiculing the thought that Cisse "dip in form" is even worthy of discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMTEX Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I do think that not acknowledging that Cisse's poor season is a serious problem that may not remedy itself given a bit more time, is pretty much equally as myopic as stating that he is now the next Torres. The length of his poor form is not an insignificant amount of time. [And as a side note, the offside statistic on the last page is daft IMO. Being in an offside position and being flagged for an offside (and recorded in a statistic) because someone passes to you are two different things entirely. I wouldn't deign to compare his positional sense to Benteke as I haven't seen nearly enough of Benteke to make any such judgement, but I've seen more than enough of Cisse this season to know that his awareness of offside this season has been about as good as Shola on horse tranquillisers. Admitting that doesn't make you a heretic/Cisse-hater/mean you have an agenda -it just means you've watched him play and formed an opinion]. heretic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I just don't see how it's possible to draw any decent conclusion or get any outcome from this debate. Cisse is going through a poor period of form, that's a fact. That's the extent of the argument for me, just play him and wait for him to get into better form. There is no alternative. All I object to is the excessive criticism of one of our top players rather than deciding to support him through it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I just don't see how it's possible to draw any decent conclusion or get any outcome from this debate. Cisse is going through a poor period of form, that's a fact. That's the extent of the argument for me, just play him and wait for him to get into better form. There is no alternative. All I object to is the excessive criticism of one of our top players rather than deciding to support him through it. So....wait and see? < Blatant wink. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I just don't see how it's possible to draw any decent conclusion or get any outcome from this debate. Cisse is going through a poor period of form, that's a fact. That's the extent of the argument for me, just play him and wait for him to get into better form. There is no alternative. All I object to is the excessive criticism of one of our top players rather than deciding to support him through it. I don't think the criticism has been that excessive tbh. Players with less ability, such as Shola, get loads more stick ironically. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I just don't see how it's possible to draw any decent conclusion or get any outcome from this debate. Cisse is going through a poor period of form, that's a fact. That's the extent of the argument for me, just play him and wait for him to get into better form. There is no alternative. All I object to is the excessive criticism of one of our top players rather than deciding to support him through it. I don't think the criticism has been that excessive tbh. Players with less ability, such as Shola, get loads more stick ironically. Any kind of criticism is excessive to Ian W. He thinks talking about his loss of form is going to effect Cisse more so is against it, see the 'support him through it comment' like what we say on a forum is going to translate to the pitch. If me or you (or anyone in this thread worried/concerned or criticising) were watching Cisse live he'd get full vocal support as always, just a shame Ian is massively set in his ways (sorry can't think of another way of saying it without upsetting or criticising Ian) and cannot see this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Well I would make a response to that, but apparently all my opinions are invalid. And I've been told not to abuse you personally, like you just did to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 That was abuse? Fuck me point proven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Oh TT, you are a master of debate. Hats off to you sir. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 That's what I don't understand. We expect more from Shola than he can give and we abuse him when he doesn't live up to it. Yet, Cisse under performs when we know he can play so much better but it is ignored and at worst, blamed on other less talented players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NG32 Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 That's what I don't understand. We expect more from Shola than he can give and we abuse him when he doesn't live up to it. Yet, Cisse under performs when we know he can play so much better but it is ignored and at worst, blamed on other less talented players. Cisses's form is not ignored, its just acknowledged that he is having a poor run of form, partly due to lack of confidence, lack of supply, and a disjointed team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotus Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Cisse is good either ghosting into areas or getting early balls. Right now we're not really getting round the back of teams so he can ghost in and we're not playing the ball early enough. He's getting a little anxious and he's straying offside too often. I do think you can see a pattern emerging between him and Moussa though. We are starting to play it into Cisse's feet (with his back to goal) and he's laying it off to Moussa and then spinning into space while Moussa drives forward with the ball. I think with Gouf and HBA making anitipatory runs off that move will give us a good attacking outlet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NG32 Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 I also think having Gouffran on the left has helped Cisse out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 That's what I don't understand. We expect more from Shola than he can give and we abuse him when he doesn't live up to it. Yet, Cisse under performs when we know he can play so much better but it is ignored and at worst, blamed on other less talented players. So we shouldn't criticise Shola? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NG32 Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 That's what I don't understand. We expect more from Shola than he can give and we abuse him when he doesn't live up to it. Yet, Cisse under performs when we know he can play so much better but it is ignored and at worst, blamed on other less talented players. So we shouldn't criticise Shola? The thing about shola is, we have seen him score some top goals and shows his ability from time to time. We have the evidence of this since he first appeared when he was 16 or 17. Cisse, has had one great half season with us and a poor half season with us. Strangely his first good half season was with us when we were playing well. His bad half season (or just over that now) is when the team is preforming poorly overall. Odd that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Cisse can be infuriating with failing to stay onside, but he helps himself for sympathy by having the right attitude on the pitch, working hard, playing out wide where he's useless without complaining. Shola is ineffective but I suspect some of the hate for him comes as much out of what it means when he's on the pitch, it means we're set up more for the long ball. The feeling is with Cisse it's a confidence thing, with Shola it's that he's just a pretty crap player most of the time... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 That's what I don't understand. We expect more from Shola than he can give and we abuse him when he doesn't live up to it. Yet, Cisse under performs when we know he can play so much better but it is ignored and at worst, blamed on other less talented players. So we shouldn't criticise Shola? We should when necessary. Under-achievement is always worse than lack of skill/talent/ability though. Why criticise someone so harshly when they're playing to their level, they're not good enough and need diminished squad roles or sold. But someone with ability under-performs and everyone else gets the blame and the player at hand rarely receives constructive criticism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Is that what this bent crusade is all about? Trying to prove some arbitrary point that some players are criticised more than others? Shola is a poor footballer who shouldn't be getting games for us, he certainly shouldn't be the 2nd best striker on our books. The same goes for Simpson at RB, the guy also appears to be a bit of a cunt. It's understandable that people don't want them in the side and will be a bit miffed when they are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 No it's about constructive criticism. Constantly berating weaker players is stupid. Especially when they're playing close to their peak. They often get criticised for the sake of scapegoating. Others, deserve constructive criticism because they're not playing as well as they can. No point burying your head in the sand and pretending it's everyone elses fault. That doesn't benefit anyone. We are happy with less from our better players than they can give in terms of quality but demand more from our weaker players than they can give. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawK Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 We need to be 4-3-3 to get the best out of this world-class finisher, with HBA right and Gouffran left, Marveaux subbing in where necessary. Midfield 3 of Sissoko/Tiote/Cabaye and the regular flat back 4. No idea what's holding Pardew to 4-4-2. We haven't played 442 for months Could have fooled me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 We haven't played 4-4-2 since the 2-0 away defeat to Southampton in December Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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