Success - can we improve our trophies?

[80]

I'd love to win the FA Cup, of course, but if we finished the season with both domestic cups, I think I'd still have very mixed feelings. Theoretically, only whoever wins the league, and Chelsea if they win the CL, will have had a more successful campaign, but I wouldn't be happy with 7-12 in the league.

 

What wacko says is pretty common, but it's also pretty mad 'officially'. I mean once upon a time, some people would even have said Liverpool have had more success than the League Champions this year because they will have won 2 trophies instead of 1, so he should be delighted - it's a double. But now, they're often seen as consolation prizes at best, if not nuisances for tired professional athletes. I bet wacko would have been happier finishing 4th and just making the quarter-finals of any other tournament.

 

So can anything be done to improve this? I think a lot of people have horribly dry attitudes about stuff nowadays, people supporting the idea a team like Wolverhampton should just field their reserves at Old Trafford because 'we all know they'll just lose so they should accept it and keep the best players for more important games', people who'd rather average an extra .23 points per game in the league than have a proper crack at the cup. But maybe they're right, maybe it is the best demonstration of a teams quality in which case all these other distractions should be ditched.

 

Personally, I support chucking the League Cup because it devalues things and was only invented to create more gate money for clubs. Meanwhile, the proper, original cup should be restored with the most valuable thing around in modern football - automatic qualification for the Champions' League. If a Second Division team ever did win it... maybe they could be offered promotion to the Premiership instead? I think this would help recreate some real dogfights among teams who can't rely on being a member of (what would now be) the top three who'd qualify through the league - which is most teams nowadays, let's face it. Much better than the bad old days of the mid-Noughties with the 'big 4' of Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool sitting there like giant lumps of conceited, money-eating dung.

 

Fwiw, I've kept European stuff out of this because it's harder for us to control - sure I think the CL should be made smaller, but that's another can of worms for another day.

[Kaizero]

Bitches love cups.

[Pilko]

I think instead of the League Cup there should just be a secondary cup for Premier League and Championship teams - in the same way that the JPT is for the League 1 and League 2 sides.

[80]

I think instead of the League Cup there should just be a secondary cup for Premier League and Championship teams - in the same way that the JPT is for the League 1 and League 2 sides.

 

But why? I mean put it like this, if we only had the league and FA Cup now, would you invent another JPT? Is anything improved by it? We could just create a more prestigious reserves tournament if that's what it's about.

[Pilko]

Not at all, I think it gives a nice backdoor for some sides into Europe without all the faff of involving League 1 and 2 sides that aren't going to make it there anyway. Plus, with only 44 teams involved, it's not like it would take very long, is it?

[80]

Not at all, I think it gives a nice backdoor for some sides into Europe without all the faff of involving League 1 and 2 sides that aren't going to make it there anyway. Plus, with only 44 teams involved, it's not like it would take very long, is it?

 

But even teams like Fulham and Villa have found being in the 'Europa League' more of a hassle than a pleasure unless they fluke their way into the semis, and normally the League Cup spot just goes to some runner up like Birmingham City who managed to play a couple of reserve teams in earlier stages. Pointless teams playing pointless games for a pointless reward, makes a mockery of the whole thing.

[Beren]

You've taken on quite a lot to chew in your OP, 80.

 

- An Arsenal supporting friend asked me whether I'd rather get a top four finish, or the League Cup. I reluctantly said the latter. When I was younger, I would have said the CL spot - because I assumed getting into the CL once might give Newcastle a platform to consistently reach Europe (which we did do in fits and starts tbf), which would ultimately lead to more trophies than a one-off win. The landscape of football having changed even more recently with Chelsea, Man City etc., means sacrificing cups for Europe for a cup probably isn't the smartest move. Arsenal are trophyless since 2005, but at this stage, the memory of winning trophies is still fresh - and my mate feels privileged to have lived through one of their more successful periods. Understandable that he'd still prefer the CL spot.

 

- It annoys me to see the obeisance of visiting teams at OT. Don't think your point about Wolves fits perfectly with the rest of your post - but a pet peeve of mine is that teams don't have a go at Man Utd - generally for pyschological reasons. The amount of times Man Utd have played completely average while opposing teams cowered inside their own penalty box is infuriating. You would've thought managers, players and crowds would be able to smell traces of blood after their games against ourselves and Bilbao - as well as the likes of Blackburn and Wigan - who didn't necessarily have fantastic personnel - but the right attitude at least.

 

- I really don't like the idea of cup winners going to the CL tbh. It'd be awful if some ridiculously lucky cup run took Stoke to the Champions League, for example. The league for me is definitely the best measure of clubs in the English league. The cups are a bit of a lottery, to a degree.

 

- I think the modern English game really needs two cups in its current state. The fickleness and expectations of owners/fans and the money being spent by 5-6 clubs mean there needs to be more success to go around! As ridiculous as Chelsea are atm, sacking managers every season, I think taking away another Cup might really make things too manic. For example, I fully expect Liverpool to lose against the victor of Chelsea and Spurs. Without their League Cup win, one cup run to the final probably would be too disastrous for Dalglish to keep his position. Obviously, everyone inside and outside of Liverpool want Dalglish as their manager for as long as possible - for different reasons, admittedly, but still

 

- Ultimately, I don't think the problems of the denigration of cups are to do so much with the format of the competitions themselves, or the incentivisation for them - as with most football things - it's probably more to do with money which monopolises other aspects of the game and which inhibits "upwards mobility" for most clubs outside the top 4/5.

[Robster]

They should introduce another 10 cup competitions to help us improve our chances of winning one this millennium.

[ATB]

I think the League Cup should be removed. Never understood the idea with two cups.

 

One cup - the FA cup - there only the winner make it to the europe.

[Dr.Spaceman]

I think they should replace the league cup with a 5-a-side competition.

[Cronky]

The League Cup has always been a low-prestige competition. I don't think much has changed there. It's found a niche as a payday for the lower league clubs, and as an opportunity for the Premiership teams to give a chance to their youth and reserve players.

 

The Champions League has diminished the FA Cup, with the importance for the top teams of getting into that top four. The CL is a good competition and so I'm broadly accepting of the fact that its success will have a knock-on effect. What I think is damaging is the huge difference in the financial rewards of competing in the CL, compared with the rest of the Premiership. We've ended up with a self-perpetuating elite, who, because of their wealth have ended up monopolising (to some extent) the FA Cup as well. I think the money should be distributed more evenly.

 

I can't see the FA Cup recovering its position though. In the old days, only one team qualified for the European Cup, so coming 2nd and qualifying for the UEFA Cup was in practice no more rewarding than winning the FA Cup and getting in the Cup Winners Cup. In fact, of course, the Cup winners had the extra glory of winning a competition with such a long and interesting history. Those days won't return.

[ToonImms]

Champions league should be for League Chamions.

Bring back Cup winners cup.

Make Europa/UEFA Cup for league runners up and 3rd place/league cup winner.

 

Right now I would rather we finished in top 4 than won a domestic competition as I think it would be a bigger acheivement.

[MW]

I want to celebrate trophy success more than anything else in football. A whole generation havent seen it. It will be an incredible day when/if it eventually happens

[jdckelly]

Scrap the league cup or change the rules so that only players 23 and younger or something along that line can play in it so it can be used to develop young players, its already being used as a training ground by the likes of man u and arsenal why not make it official.

 

Also give a champions league spot to the FA cup winners, the big sides will detest that idea but screw em give teams an incentive to win the fa cup rather than just focus on qualifying via the league for the champions league for the big cash

[jdckelly]

Champions league should be for League Chamions.

Bring back Cup winners cup.

Make Europa/UEFA Cup for league runners up and 3rd place/league cup winner.

 

Right now I would rather we finished in top 4 than won a domestic competition as I think it would be a bigger acheivement.

lovely idea in theory but never going to happen, too many have too much to lose not just the big clubs but UEFA itself in the huge loss of tv revenue there would be without the numerous big clubs that would fail to qualify if it was league champions only

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Take one of the Champions League places from the league finishers and give it to the League Cup winner instead?

[Oakie Doke]

for some reason I read the title as 'Souness - can we improve our trophies?'

 

true story.

[Anderson]

I do think that Champions League qualification is just as big, if not bigger, than a cup win these days, especially for clubs of a similar size as us. Always grates on me that some people's mentality is if you've not won an actual trophy you've achieved nowt and that European adventures and other high points count for nothing. That said, due to nothing more than our increasingly ridiculous trophy drought, I would love nothing more than to win something soon.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

for some reason I read the title as 'Souness - can we improve our trophies?'

 

true story.

 

Me too.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I would love to win something, but in my heart I would know a league cup win was basically pointless. Unless we'd beaten a few proper teams on the way.

[madras]

I would love to win something, but in my heart I would know a league cup win was basically pointless. Unless we'd beaten a few proper teams on the way.

even then those proper teams would likely have played reserve teams.

 

i voted get rid of the league cup. for all i don't think cup comps prove you're a good team i love the early rounds, the chance of a giantkilling etc. and yes i'd party like fuck if we won it.

[henke]

A few years ago i'd have said merge the league cup with scotland. Totally rediculous idea i'll agree, but it would have made it interesting. But the way the spl is now it would just be laughable.

 

So no, leave things as they are.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I would like a cup with another country like the Heineken Cup in rugby. With France would be cool.

[madras]

A few years ago i'd have said merge the league cup with scotland. Totally rediculous idea i'll agree, but it would have made it interesting. But the way the spl is now it would just be laughable.

 

So no, leave things as they are.

return of the texaco cup in other words.

[Sifu]

I say keep things the way they are (for the time being anyway).

 

I, for one, am an advocate of the League Cup and I would love it if we won it someday. Sure it's not as prestigious as the FA Cup but it's still a decent test imo - you will meet the big teams along the way (okay, they might field an understrength team but most of the time, their reserves are still of a decent level). One thing I've noticed over the years is that once a team gets into the quarters, that's when, say the big teams, start to take the competition seriously. In any case, the League Cup certainly gives our youth/reserve players the chance to shine.

 

The means of qualifying for the CL/Europa League should remain the same. Actually, one thing I would like to get rid of is the runners-up of the FA Cup being able to qualify for Europe if the winner already has CL football guaranteed and all that.....