Success - can we improve our trophies?

[madras]

I say keep things the way they are (for the time being anyway).

 

I, for one, am an advocate of the League Cup and I would love it if we won it someday. Sure it's not as prestigious as the FA Cup but it's still a decent test imo - you will meet the big teams along the way (okay, they might field an understrength team but most of the time, their reserves are still of a decent level). One thing I've noticed over the years is that once a team gets into the quarters, that's when, say the big teams, start to take the competition seriously. In any case, the League Cup certainly gives our youth/reserve players the chance to shine.

 

The means of qualifying for the CL/Europa League should remain the same. Actually, one thing I would like to get rid of is the runners-up of the FA Cup being able to qualify for Europe if the winner already has CL football guaranteed and all that.....

todays league cup is the equivilent of the texaco cup with a euro passport.

[Sifu]

Admittedly, there was a period in the past when the League Cup was actually pointless but I think that nowadays, it's a better competition. That is, the "smaller" teams have started taking the competition a bit more seriously (and have been doing well against the big teams). Seeing Birmingham win it last season and Cardiff coming close to winning it this season were good things to see tbh (I do like a good underdog story).

 

Our record in the League Cup seems to be shite though.

[madras]

Admittedly, there was a period in the past when the League Cup was actually pointless but I think that nowadays, it's a better competition. That is, the "smaller" teams have started taking the competition a bit more seriously (and have been doing well against the big teams). Seeing Birmingham win it last season and Cardiff coming close to winning it this season were good things to see tbh (I do like a good underdog story).

 

Our record in the League Cup seems to be s**** though.

apart from it's europa league place it's a johnstones paint trophy that we all talke part in.

[Sifu]

Well, I still think it's worth it. After all, it is still a trophy and one which is somewhat prestigious.

[madras]

Well, I still think it's worth it. After all, it is still a trophy and one which is somewhat prestigious.

yeah fair do's. i went out and celebrated the japan cup as a kid.

[OzzieMandias]

Well, I voted to scrap it.

[Guest ThievingMagpie]

Just bring back the Cup Winners Cup.

[timeEd32]

I'm relatively happy with how things are, but I wouldn't be opposed to scrapping the League Cup and giving the FA Cup winner a CL place.

[Doctor Zaius]

We can dismiss the league cup all we want but we'd all be frothing at the gash if we won it.

[Exiled in Texas]

Or if Sunlun won it

[80]

I want to celebrate trophy success more than anything else in football. A whole generation havent seen it. It will be an incredible day when/if it eventually happens

 

Truth is I sort of hope we don't win it for that reason - it'll be about as incredible as when Scott Parker got our little Intertoto pot. Would feel like a false start, I'd rather win something proper so I could let go and not feel embarrassed about being so happy. Interesting to me that on first sight it seems like it's the older ones who are more anti-it and the younger ones who give the League Cup more credit.

 

- It annoys me to see the obeisance of visiting teams at OT. Don't think your point about Wolves fits perfectly with the rest of your post - but a pet peeve of mine is that teams don't have a go at Man Utd - generally for pyschological reasons. The amount of times Man Utd have played completely average while opposing teams cowered inside their own penalty box is infuriating. You would've thought managers, players and crowds would be able to smell traces of blood after their games against ourselves and Bilbao - as well as the likes of Blackburn and Wigan - who didn't necessarily have fantastic personnel - but the right attitude at least.

 

- I really don't like the idea of cup winners going to the CL tbh. It'd be awful if some ridiculously lucky cup run took Stoke to the Champions League, for example. The league for me is definitely the best measure of clubs in the English league. The cups are a bit of a lottery, to a degree.

 

- I think the modern English game really needs two cups in its current state. The fickleness and expectations of owners/fans and the money being spent by 5-6 clubs mean there needs to be more success to go around! As ridiculous as Chelsea are atm, sacking managers every season, I think taking away another Cup might really make things too manic. For example, I fully expect Liverpool to lose against the victor of Chelsea and Spurs. Without their League Cup win, one cup run to the final probably would be too disastrous for Dalglish to keep his position. Obviously, everyone inside and outside of Liverpool want Dalglish as their manager for as long as possible - for different reasons, admittedly, but still

 

Re: Wolves, I mention that partly with a view to this idea that the cups just get in the way and aren't worth bothering with if you've got something more important like a top half finish to think about. But also partly as it rings with this feeling that there's just a lack of fight among competitors now. That there's this widespread feeling among people that outcomes are usually pre-determined, and a game of football is a mechanistic affair which won't be changed by trying hard in it or anything stupid like that.

 

Which brings me onto the point about Stoke and the league being a good measure. What I will say about them - for them - is that newly promoted Stoke were an absolute nightmare to play away from home, and that's something that deserves credit. On a given day, they could beat anyone, and it wasn't just about long throws, it was about energy - not physical stamina but that pulse 25,000 of them could summon and make technically great players wobble, because they lacked that bottle. It's something intangible, that we haven't scientifically quantified and categorised as yet, but people who've been to more than a few games will know what I mean, because we as a club have been better at doing it than most over the years.

 

I remember one of the more inspirational things Keegan said was about how our players shouldn't go out thinking tomorrow's headlines have already been written - they haven't, they can go out now and write them. And that vibe is what I think knock out competitions can and should reward. The blend of skill and competitive desire that makes football more addictive than amateur ballet. So if Stoke did ever go all the way through a tournament, I'd say good luck to them, because it would mean just as much as Villa beating some Estonians in a mini-tournament to win the European Cup back in '81 to me. And like I say, by giving a greater reward for winning the cup, the truth is it would make higher quality clubs take it more seriously anyway, so there'd be less chance of Delap and co. bullying some A-level students to victory anyway.

 

As for the league being a better measure of quality... yeah, maybe, but it's still not ideal - if you wanted an assessment of quality, you'd be better off getting rid of seasons and just having an endless procession of test matches, like Cricket and it's world rankings. The fact is it's an embarrassment that 70% of the participants in the Champions' League are actually champions of nothing.

 

And finally, regarding English football needing 2 cups to feed the fickleness of today's game, that's all the more reason to get rid of them - then the dickheads will have to pull themselves together or they'll be a long time moping. In a way, I think the three domestic trophies did feed the idea that there were gold, silver and bronze medals, and a wooden spoon, to be handed out among the 'big 4' - 'last one in the CL goes without, better luck next year chaps' type stuff.

[The College Dropout]

Let's have this discussion after we finally win something. Would love to win the league cup just the way it is. Wouldn't mind throwing all our eggs into the cup baskets next season.

[Disco]

I want to celebrate trophy success more than anything else in football. A whole generation havent seen it. It will be an incredible day when/if it eventually happens

 

So much this.

[Guest Wally_McFool]

Fans regards winning trophies as major honours, football club owners regard finishing 3rd and 4th (or for some,even surviving) in the Premier League as a "major trophy" and in many cases would rather take this scenario than winning  one of the cups.

i blame Sky, me!

 

 

[Disco]

Fans regards winning trophies as major honours, football club owners regard finishing 3rd and 4th (or for some,even surviving) in the Premier League as a "major trophy" and in many cases would rather take this scenario than winning  one of the cups.

i blame Sky, me!

 

 

 

Money brought in by the CL just as much as Sky.

[stozo]

Would love to us win some trophies.

 

It's a shame the cup competitions (especially the League Cup) seem to be devalued. However, the League Cup does have the problem that the majority of it's matches take place early in the season when the big clubs are far more concerned with staying the Champions League or Europa League. That and the fact there is no reward for big teams to do well (Why would Man U want a Europa League spot when they'll get a CL one in league?) makes it pretty pointless.

 

The FA Cup still seems to be doing OK. I'd say change it to give a CL place to the winner (CL place would go to league if winner already qualified). That would give a major incentive for all the big teams to go all out to win it.

[Wullie]

The only way you'd get the big teams wanting either cup more is a massive cash prize, that's the main reason a Champions League place is so coveted. Unfortunately the reality is that even though a lot of them go at one or both cups half arsed, they usually end up winning them anyway.

[54]

IMO both cups are a good idea, as it allows clubs like Birmingham to have a chance at Europe, a chance they wouldn't normally get, their not going to finish in the top 7, so how else are teams like that going to get into Europe. If there were no cups it would just be the same 4 or 5 teams in Europe each year, with the odd outsider (like us this year) which would get boring and mid-table teams wouldn't have anything to play for, especially now with teams like City and Chelsea, with big money owners.

[henke]

A few years ago i'd have said merge the league cup with scotland. Totally rediculous idea i'll agree, but it would have made it interesting. But the way the spl is now it would just be laughable.

 

So no, leave things as they are.

return of the texaco cup in other words.

 

I wasn't even aware of that competition! I've just been reading about it on wiki, i like the principle behind it.

[Incognito]

I remember not bothering about the League Cup during Special K's first reign here, so sure was I of silverware anytime soon. That feeling never really disappeared until 2 or 3 years ago. I would party like a madman if we won it, I suppose it is a case of beggars can't be choosers.

[Stottie]

As an experiment, giving the fourth CL place to the FA Cup winner would be interesting. They should ensure its only for one season at first to see how teams react.

 

A big obstacle in recreating a sense of occasion for the FA Cup is the fact that there are three or four live games on tv every week. The FA Cup final used to be pretty much the only game on live all year.

[Guest Roy the Irish Magpie]

Don't scrap the League cup! At the moment it's the only realistic chance of ending that dire drought of ours.

[AliGupter]

Make the FA Cup winners qualify for the CL, for a start.

[Anderson]

One thing they need to change is push the Cup final back to the weekend after the season's up. Ridiculous that it's now played a week before on the same weekend as regular fixtures. The Cup Final should always be season's curtain closer.

[Yorkie]

Discounting the odd little thing (semis at Wembley, Cup Final day on a League day), i don't think there is anything wrong with our cup competitions. I certainly can't think of anything that is so badly wrong that it warrants the disbanding of either tournament.