Lack of Investment

[Mick]

 

It does though. These are our owners and that's the sum of their investment. That being the case the only thing you can do is get the best out of the players at your disposal. So asking for performances and results against Man City would be unreasonable. But we can't use lack of investment for an excuse against West Ham, Reading or Villa.

 

A lack of investment doesn't explain why we only spent money on midfield when other areas were equally or more in need of an upgrade.  We may have spend coppers on defence but I haven't seen a fee mentioned for Good.

[Chris_R]

We haven't invested as we could or should have done, but the players that we do have are good enough to play teams like West Ham off the fucking park.

 

Now I don't expect that every week, because players are human and games have a large random element which is why football is the popular sport that it is. But we've played nobody off the park for bloody ages, whilst other teams regularly make us look second-rate. That surely must tell us something?

 

Pardew got manager of the year last season as we enjoyed a great season and finished 5th, and that achievement buys him a lot of time and respect from me and others. However I'm starting to wonder if we finished 5th because of Pardew or in spite of him.

 

Let's face it: Ben Arfa, Cabaye, Ba, Cisse, Coloccini, Tiote, Taylor, Santon, Krul. OK, we have to stick a couple of duffers in there too and there's the usual injuries/suspensions etc, but where the merry fuck should that collection of players finish if not around 5th in the league? Did we REALLY over-perform last year? Or did we just exceed our own extremely modest expectations, giving us the erroneous impression of over-performing? Should the gong for our 5th placed finish have been more accurately awarded to Alan Carr?

 

Alan Pardew is eloquent, intelligent and an excellent man-manager from what I can tell. It's not like he's some washed-up fucknut who's stumbled into the job and is incapable of comprehending the task at hand. However, he does seem to be repeatedly making some fundamental mistakes on an alarmingly regular basis.

 

1) Playing the wrong players in the wrong positions in 4-4-2

 

I have a feeling I've mentioned this before, and I have a feeling I'll probably mention it again. If we're playing 4-4-2, we need a left-footed left winger, and a right-footed right winger. No exceptions. No excuses. I'm pig-sick of Gutierrez on the left and Hatem on the right meaning that when we attack we've got 3 options:

a) attempt a cross with a foot that's best used for standing on, which is almost invariably shit.

b) check back inside, give the defenders a chance to ready themselves, then play an inswinging cross in that the defenders are facing the right way to deal with and head to safety. It simply DOES.NOT.WORK. Never has, never will.

c) cut inside and shoot. Why? For the love of all things good, WHY? What the hell are Ba and Cisse for if our gameplan is to score with our wingers cutting inside? And how is this scoring with wingers working for us exactly? Not like we've got clones of Cristiano bloody Ronaldo out on either wing.

 

We've got 2 of the league's best marksmen standing in the box, as time and again our wingers fuck about doing the wrong thing. We've seen time and again that if you supply them, they will score. So let's fucking supply them instead of trying to mess about on the flanks.

 

The same "correct people on the correct flanks" also applies to a lesser extent to fullbacks. People say Santon is best on the left, but that's with hardly any time watching the poor chap to play on the right and he's not exactly setting the league alight with his goals and assists on the left now, is he?

 

2) Playing the wrong players in the wrong positions in 4-3-3

 

Similar to above. But when we go 4-3-3, on those rarest of occasions, we still do it wrong. It seems that Ba simply has to play centrally (see below) but then we again put the wrong people on the flanks. Under a 4-3-3, your 2 wide men are auxiliary strikers and need this time SHOULD be cutting inside to shoot. However Pardew seems to still get it wrong and under his 4-3-3s this season we play lefties on the left and right footers on the right.

 

Remember when we played 4-3-3 successfully last year? Ba, Cisse, HBA. Worked beautifully. Ba didn't score as many as he could, but he contributed to our play greatly and the other 2 were magnificent. This season we're more likely to see HBA, Ba, Cisse in that order across the front line, and it means that we're effectively playing with one striker in Ba and 2 wingers to supply him. It's really 4-5-1 as neither HBA or Cisse are operating as auxiliary strikers when stuck on the left and right sides respectively.

 

3) The elephant in the corner of the room - Demba Ba

 

Let's look at some things here regarding Ba:

- Pardew said close-season that Ba would play centrally a lot more.

- Ba had (And allegedly still has?) a £7m release clause in his contract that he'll get half of and we'll only get £3.5m if he goes.

- Ba doesn't like playing out wide.

- Our best play last season was with Ba out wide in a 4-3-3

- We're trying to get Ba to sign a new contract, and for whatever reason he won't at the moment

 

Ba (Left side), Cisse (Central), Ben Arfa (right side) worked last year and worked bloody well for the most part, yet how many minutes have we played that formation this season? I'd be astonished if it's even half an hour. In fact I can't recall seeing it at all.

 

Pardew's no mug, he's an intelligent bloke, so he'll be well aware that 4-3-3 worked well for us as above. Yet he's going out of his way to avoid playing it this season. The only possible answer is that Ba has him over a barrell, so to speak, and it's a case of if he doesn't play centrally then he's off. Whether this has been implicit or explicit remains to be seen, but I cannot see that this isn't Pardew's thinking when lining up on a match day.

 

This is hamstringing the whole fucking team.

 

Now I don't know what the answer here is, I really don't. If Ba is doing what I suspect, then it's shit and puts Pardew in a really difficult position. Ba is a tremendous player and I love seeing him play for us, but it's nothing short of astonishing that we've not started a game with him on the left of a 4-3-3 after it worked so well for us last year. Maybe we can play 4-4-2 successfully and keep Ba and Cisse happy, but not with the personnel that we have. For me it's 4-3-3 until Christmas and get some new troops in if we simply must go 4-4-2. Or else let Ba go if he simply won't play out wide, sad though that will be, and move on. Players dictating to clubs, however that is done, never ends well.

[Away Toon]

I would expect a player like Cabaye who is ambitious, is a regular for France, and is certainly someone lots of clubs would like to buy, to say something about the anti football we play, which makes him look to be a poor and limited player, which obviously he isn't. The players we have that have the option of playing for high level premiership clubs, Krul, Tiote, Cabaye, Santon, HBA and Ba surely don't want to play in a team as negative as this.

[Cronky]

We haven't invested as we could or should have done, but the players that we do have are good enough to play teams like West Ham off the fucking park.

 

Now I don't expect that every week, because players are human and games have a large random element which is why football is the popular sport that it is. But we've played nobody off the park for bloody ages, whilst other teams regularly make us look second-rate. That surely must tell us something?

 

Pardew got manager of the year last season as we enjoyed a great season and finished 5th, and that achievement buys him a lot of time and respect from me and others. However I'm starting to wonder if we finished 5th because of Pardew or in spite of him.

 

Let's face it: Ben Arfa, Cabaye, Ba, Cisse, Coloccini, Tiote, Taylor, Santon, Krul. OK, we have to stick a couple of duffers in there too and there's the usual injuries/suspensions etc, but where the merry fuck should that collection of players finish if not around 5th in the league? Did we REALLY over-perform last year? Or did we just exceed our own extremely modest expectations, giving us the erroneous impression of over-performing? Should the gong for our 5th placed finish have been more accurately awarded to Alan Carr?

 

 

I'd say we did over-achieve, and that our most valuable player was Krul, who was responsible for converting quite a few potential defeats into draws, and draws into victories.

 

There seemed to be this feeling in the close season that there were a string of players who we had to keep hold of at all costs. In fact, the likes of Tiote, Ba and Cisse - decent players though they are - were being somewhat over-rated and if we'd received an inflated offer for one of them, it would have been smart business to take advantage of their inflated reputations and then strengthen the team in the key areas.

 

Ba I know was on a fixed fee, but if he was going to create trouble about being picked away from his preferred position then it would have better to replace him.

 

There would have been hell to pay with most fans but that's when the manager and the board need to show courage and clear-thinking. With all the fuss from the media and supporters about us finishing fifth, it looks like the manager got a bit carried away himself.

 

 

 

 

[Guest BooBoo]

[Interpolic]

 

It does though. These are our owners and that's the sum of their investment. That being the case the only thing you can do is get the best out of the players at your disposal. So asking for performances and results against Man City would be unreasonable. But we can't use lack of investment for an excuse against West Ham, Reading or Villa.

 

A lack of investment doesn't explain why we only spent money on midfield when other areas were equally or more in need of an upgrade.  We may have spend coppers on defence but I haven't seen a fee mentioned for Good.

 

It's honestly really simple IMO, if we're not getting a player for a 'bargain' price we're not getting him.  To an extent position doesn't matter.  It's a perplexing approach.  We'd have been much better off paying the going rate in positions we're short in, principally in the forward slots as you can sometimes get away with a lack of depth in defence if you've got enough going forward and everything's clicking.

[Gallowgate Toon]

Pardew's fault innit?

 

When the man makes the same mistakes, every single week, and simply doesn't play his players to their strengths, what are you expecting? Out of all the playing squad and coaching staff, Pardew is performing the worst. His tactics, apparent favouritism, mentality and persistent lack of creativity is pathetic.

 

Take the Cabaye issue for example. The lad is an accomplished attacking central midfielder who's been used for the best part of his career in a midfield 3. Here, he's being asked to be some kind of box-to-box, dynamo type and run a central midfield of 2 which is often outnumbered, when he's never been that player. It's not his fault he doesn't make a mark on games while being used this way, we can see he gives his all for the cause but he just simply doesn't have it in him to be a midfield general in this league, he doesn't have the presence to do so much dirty work and still produce the goods at the other end consistently. He's a fantastic midfielder, just not in the way we use him but that doesn't mean he's not a top player, all-rounders are a dying breed these days as the game now encourages specialised midfield players, which is where he's one of the best in the division IMO.

[Wullie]

It is bizarre to buy so many central midfield player who've played their entire career in a 3 and then put them into a 2. It's a very different task.

 

This goes back to the point I've made before about the transfer policy. When you buy players purely because of their price rather than because the manager has identified either a particular player or a particular position then this is the kind of problem you'll face.

[timnufc22]

3) The elephant in the corner of the room - Demba Ba

 

Let's look at some things here regarding Ba:

- Pardew said close-season that Ba would play centrally a lot more.

- Ba had (And allegedly still has?) a £7m release clause in his contract that he'll get half of and we'll only get £3.5m if he goes.

- Ba doesn't like playing out wide.

- Our best play last season was with Ba out wide in a 4-3-3

- We're trying to get Ba to sign a new contract, and for whatever reason he won't at the moment

 

Ba (Left side), Cisse (Central), Ben Arfa (right side) worked last year and worked bloody well for the most part, yet how many minutes have we played that formation this season? I'd be astonished if it's even half an hour. In fact I can't recall seeing it at all.

 

Pardew's no mug, he's an intelligent bloke, so he'll be well aware that 4-3-3 worked well for us as above. Yet he's going out of his way to avoid playing it this season. The only possible answer is that Ba has him over a barrell, so to speak, and it's a case of if he doesn't play centrally then he's off. Whether this has been implicit or explicit remains to be seen, but I cannot see that this isn't Pardew's thinking when lining up on a match day.

 

This is hamstringing the whole f***ing team.

 

Now I don't know what the answer here is, I really don't. If Ba is doing what I suspect, then it's s*** and puts Pardew in a really difficult position. Ba is a tremendous player and I love seeing him play for us, but it's nothing short of astonishing that we've not started a game with him on the left of a 4-3-3 after it worked so well for us last year. Maybe we can play 4-4-2 successfully and keep Ba and Cisse happy, but not with the personnel that we have. For me it's 4-3-3 until Christmas and get some new troops in if we simply must go 4-4-2. Or else let Ba go if he simply won't play out wide, sad though that will be, and move on. Players dictating to clubs, however that is done, never ends well.

[David Icke - Son of God]

3) The elephant in the corner of the room - Demba Ba

 

Let's look at some things here regarding Ba:

- Pardew said close-season that Ba would play centrally a lot more.

- Ba had (And allegedly still has?) a £7m release clause in his contract that he'll get half of and we'll only get £3.5m if he goes.

- Ba doesn't like playing out wide.

- Our best play last season was with Ba out wide in a 4-3-3

- We're trying to get Ba to sign a new contract, and for whatever reason he won't at the moment

 

Ba (Left side), Cisse (Central), Ben Arfa (right side) worked last year and worked bloody well for the most part, yet how many minutes have we played that formation this season? I'd be astonished if it's even half an hour. In fact I can't recall seeing it at all.

 

Pardew's no mug, he's an intelligent bloke, so he'll be well aware that 4-3-3 worked well for us as above. Yet he's going out of his way to avoid playing it this season. The only possible answer is that Ba has him over a barrell, so to speak, and it's a case of if he doesn't play centrally then he's off. Whether this has been implicit or explicit remains to be seen, but I cannot see that this isn't Pardew's thinking when lining up on a match day.

 

This is hamstringing the whole fucking team.

 

Now I don't know what the answer here is, I really don't. If Ba is doing what I suspect, then it's shit and puts Pardew in a really difficult position. Ba is a tremendous player and I love seeing him play for us, but it's nothing short of astonishing that we've not started a game with him on the left of a 4-3-3 after it worked so well for us last year. Maybe we can play 4-4-2 successfully and keep Ba and Cisse happy, but not with the personnel that we have. For me it's 4-3-3 until Christmas and get some new troops in if we simply must go 4-4-2. Or else let Ba go if he simply won't play out wide, sad though that will be, and move on. Players dictating to clubs, however that is done, never ends well.

 

If that's the only reason we're not doing as we were last season (and I fear it is given our complete change in tactics and the constant chatter about keeping him happy) then Pards wants shooting with shit. No player should dictate to the manager. He can leave if he's not willing to be part of a team.

 

And don't get me wrong, I love Ba. He's an absolutely magnificent footballer and he's scored some very important goals for us but we were a brilliant side when he played on the left. Not only that he played bloody well for the team too! No amount of media claptrap from pundits will tell me he was anything other than a bit out of form in front of goal. He had chances, but he just wasn't taking them as well as he was earlier in the season. Playing on the left had nothing to do with it.

 

What I do find bizarre is that at times Ba was practically playing a holding midfield role today he was dropping so deep to come to get the ball, yet he's allegedly unhappy at playing much further up the pitch on the left.

[timnufc22]

3) The elephant in the corner of the room - Demba Ba

 

Let's look at some things here regarding Ba:

- Pardew said close-season that Ba would play centrally a lot more.

- Ba had (And allegedly still has?) a £7m release clause in his contract that he'll get half of and we'll only get £3.5m if he goes.

- Ba doesn't like playing out wide.

- Our best play last season was with Ba out wide in a 4-3-3

- We're trying to get Ba to sign a new contract, and for whatever reason he won't at the moment

 

Ba (Left side), Cisse (Central), Ben Arfa (right side) worked last year and worked bloody well for the most part, yet how many minutes have we played that formation this season? I'd be astonished if it's even half an hour. In fact I can't recall seeing it at all.

 

Pardew's no mug, he's an intelligent bloke, so he'll be well aware that 4-3-3 worked well for us as above. Yet he's going out of his way to avoid playing it this season. The only possible answer is that Ba has him over a barrell, so to speak, and it's a case of if he doesn't play centrally then he's off. Whether this has been implicit or explicit remains to be seen, but I cannot see that this isn't Pardew's thinking when lining up on a match day.

 

This is hamstringing the whole f***ing team.

 

Now I don't know what the answer here is, I really don't. If Ba is doing what I suspect, then it's s*** and puts Pardew in a really difficult position. Ba is a tremendous player and I love seeing him play for us, but it's nothing short of astonishing that we've not started a game with him on the left of a 4-3-3 after it worked so well for us last year. Maybe we can play 4-4-2 successfully and keep Ba and Cisse happy, but not with the personnel that we have. For me it's 4-3-3 until Christmas and get some new troops in if we simply must go 4-4-2. Or else let Ba go if he simply won't play out wide, sad though that will be, and move on. Players dictating to clubs, however that is done, never ends well.

 

If that's the only reason we're not doing as we were last season (and I fear it is given our complete change in tactics and the constant chatter about keeping him happy) then Pards wants shooting with s***. No player should dictate to the manager. He can leave if he's not willing to be part of a team.

 

And don't get me wrong, I love Ba. He's an absolutely magnificent footballer and he's scored some very important goals for us but we were a brilliant side when he played on the left. Not only that he played bloody well for the team too! No amount of media claptrap from pundits will tell me he was anything other than a bit out of form in front of goal. He had chances, but he just wasn't taking them as well as he was earlier in the season. Playing on the left had nothing to do with it.

 

What I do find bizarre is that at times Ba was practically playing a holding midfield role today he was dropping so deep to come to get the ball, yet he's allegedly unhappy at playing much further up the pitch on the left.

 

Spot on imo.

[Wullie]

Indeed. I love Ba too and I'd be gutted to see him go but a player who'd rather be scoring than winning is no use to anyone.

[Mick]

Should the gong for our 5th placed finish have been more accurately awarded to Alan Carr?

 

 

 

Why would it go to him?

[ohmelads]

It is bizarre to buy so many central midfield player who've played their entire career in a 3 and then put them into a 2. It's a very different task.

 

This goes back to the point I've made before about the transfer policy. When you buy players purely because of their price rather than because the manager has identified either a particular player or a particular position then this is the kind of problem you'll face.

 

Spot on.

 

Our transfer policy has been highly praised, but spending the entire summer budget on Anita after already buying Bigirimana (and having Tiote, Cabaye, Gosling, Gutierrez) made no sense, and suggests a major lack of communication over transfers between the manager and the board.

[Dave]

I don't think there's a lack of communication at all. Pardew gets what he's given.

[ohmelads]

I don't think there's a lack of communication at all. Pardew gets what he's given.

 

Isn't that the same thing?

 

I reckon he may have had some input in putting together a list of players he liked, but there's no way he'd have knowingly spent all his money on Anita. That was a boardroom decision which didn't address the squad's needs. I hope Anita will come good and don't mean to single him out, but he wasn't what was needed and that was obvious at the time. I assumed if the club would spend that much on a player with no defined first team role, that the necessary additions would follow and they didn't. It gives the image that there really is no transfer 'strategy' and we are opportunistic in the market and, as you have mentioned, the manager then works with what he's got at the end of the window.

[rocksammy]

I honestly think when cabaye and tiote are together they can get the best of most midfield trios.... However that said we are missing tiote....

[Guest]

I wonder if there is a bit of Everton syndrome. They rarely make major changes season after season, maybe the 'freshness' of 3-4 new signings is what causes this to an extent before the ability finally shines through later on. Yep, clutching straws I know.

[ohmelads]

As a result of our transfer policy (as opposed to strategy), what you see is a team with some fine individuals, but no clear style of play or obvious tactical gameplan. Pardew strikes me as a 4-4-2 man with, in an ideal world, wingers hitting the by-line and peppering the penalty area with crosses and a natural finisher converting the chances. I have nothing against this style of play, Bobby Robson produced exciting and winning football this way, but Pardew has not been backed in the transfer market to assemble a team to play his way. Robson was, and we had a recognisable gameplan back then. Right now, I can't identify any gameplan, and the signings don't point to one either.

[themanupstairs]

As a result of our transfer policy (as opposed to strategy), what you see is a team with some fine individuals, but no clear style of play or obvious tactical gameplan. Pardew strikes me as a 4-4-2 man with, in an ideal world, wingers hitting the by-line and peppering the penalty area with crosses and a natural finisher converting the chances. I have nothing against this style of play, Bobby Robson produced exciting and winning football this way, but Pardew has not been backed in the transfer market to assemble a team to play his way. Robson was, and we had a recognisable gameplan back then. Right now, I can't identify any gameplan, and the signings don't point to one either.

 

There aren't that many of these types of wingers out there anyway. I wouldn't swap the likes of Jarvis and Etherington for Ben Arfa/Sammy/Marveaux etc.. Our "wing" players have a multitude of skills and ability and shouldn't be shafted out to the wing at every possible opportunity. Use the wings by all means, when the opportunity presents itself, but f*** me if someone like Ben Arfa is going to be limited to tactics that make him so easy to mark out of a game....then we really are heading nowhere.

 

We should abandon the "width" in terms of structure, and use width during the game to change things up, as we have some players who can exploit it - to a certain extent. In the main though, we should almost always be going through the middle because of the type of players we have. I think Pardew's fear is losing the ball in the center which theoretically makes us more vulnerable to a counter, as opposed to losing the ball out wide.

 

We should be seeing more goals (chances) like Shola's against Brugge, Obertan's against Bordeaux, Ba's first against Reading, Cisse's first against Chelsea, Cisse's against Stoke etc.... Final balls coming down the throat of the opposition CB's. Enough setting up to whip crosses in, when we can't even muster 2 or 3 of those in a game to begin with.

 

f*** all to do with investment. Sure it would have been great to have made a few additions, but in no way does it excuse the pathetic displays we have seen this season.

[buzza]

The (excellent) post above by Chris R points out that we should be playing a 433 instead of a 451. I would say that we should be playing a 4-2-3-1 with the two full backs always pushing up into midfield to give some more options and to push the space on their counters, apply the same logic about the "wide" players in the three upfront and we are cooking!!!

The comment about playing a 442 with two great headers of the ball and inverting our wingers, which leaves time for their defence to regroup while they put ball on good foot, was spot on!

Lack of investment doesn't come into it... Please change thread to "Playing to our strengths" or "Square pegs in Round Holes"

[Disco]

It is bizarre to buy so many central midfield player who've played their entire career in a 3 and then put them into a 2. It's a very different task.

 

This goes back to the point I've made before about the transfer policy. When you buy players purely because of their price rather than because the manager has identified either a particular player or a particular position then this is the kind of problem you'll face.

 

Given where we tend to shop this is going to carry on being a problem too until we change the system and/or coach them in to being able to play the new one effectively which for a central midfielder coming from abroad is probably the hardest position to do for given the increased pace and physicality of the English league as a whole coupled with the extra running/work they'll have to do for being a man down.

[TherealnorthernTOON]

We look to be playing footie at times, having players in positions where they can do the most damage. Then the next game we return to shit football. Why? We didn't even look like scoring yesterday. Far to few chances.

[merlin]

Any quality player we have will not be happy if they think that they are not going to be joined by other top players after putting in a major effort to gain European football,which they did last season.

 

Now that it has become apparent that Ashley and Llambias intend to stick to a very tight budget, come what may, players like Cabaye and Tiote will be off at the first major opportunity because they can see that if the team is not improved their efforts will be fruitless.

 

A player's career is short and no-one can blame them for seeking success with a better club. It was obvious after the failure to address major problems in defence in the summer that the club was not going to try to challenge the Top 4 and as a result, we will lose top players in due course.

 

Playing percentage football will not improve the situation either because the fans will get restless and that will sour the feeling in the Dressing room even more.

 

Difficult to see this being resolved satisfactorily....

[Guest neesy111]

Who was it on here that said the senior players would be happy by the lack of signings as it mean't there positions in the team were safe?  Ridiculous statement.