colinmk Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Two defensive midfielders in the centre and two centre forwards who can't hold the ball up. Not a recipe for building attacks. Cisse can hold the ball up. Playing up front on his own at Freiburg he was brilliant at it. didn't he play up top 'on his own' in our 4-3-3 spell? Seemed to work well.. The issue isn't that he's up top alone, it's that we want to use him as a target man, someone who enjoys physical scraps with centre-halves, something who battles with his back to goal, someone who is skilful enough to hold the ball when he has two or three players crowding around him. Well he's not that sort of player. in the slightest. But what he can do is respond to good movement around him, play on the shoulder of the last defender, be part of quick, incisive counter-attacks, move into space and play simple passes when the other attackers show for the ball and so on. Not every lone striker need be a target man with physical presence, look at Defoe's form this season for example, or to be even more blindingly obvious, Falcao and Messi when they play in a front 3. You will have to look quite far to see an example of a player being as poorly utilised as Cisse is right now - both in terms of how the team around him plays, and what he himself is expected to do. Looks absolutely bereft of ability and confidence. Pardew's use of his Cisse this season is worse than Allardyce putting Martins out wide, for instance. In fact it's even worse than those infamous matches when Souness put Shola on the left-wing, because you're wasting a far bigger asset than Ameobi. it's absolutely criminal. Very good analysis there Johnny. Obviously his confidence is rock bottom at the moment too and that is making it even worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Two defensive midfielders in the centre and two centre forwards who can't hold the ball up. Not a recipe for building attacks. Cisse can hold the ball up. Playing up front on his own at Freiburg he was brilliant at it. I've never seen him play for Freiburg, but I simply don't believe that. He's absolutely terrible at it, even worse than Ba. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
binnsy Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Two defensive midfielders in the centre and two centre forwards who can't hold the ball up. Not a recipe for building attacks. Cisse can hold the ball up. Playing up front on his own at Freiburg he was brilliant at it. I've never seen him play for Freiburg, but I simply don't believe that. He's absolutely terrible at it, even worse than Ba. Me neither but i would imagine when he played up front on his own at Freiberg he wasn't having balls fired at his head and instead was getting balls played through midfield and then down the side of centre backs for him to run on too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Cisse is like the Real Madrid/early days here Michael Owen type player who plays on the last man, who darts into space and basically puts away your through balls etc. He is no target man or lone ranger, he's an instinctive forward with a bit pace, a bit guile and good all-round finishing skills. In short he needs chances. We are not providing any. For all his wonder goals last season, he was more of a threat when chances were being created for him, allied to his runs, movement etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Two defensive midfielders in the centre and two centre forwards who can't hold the ball up. Not a recipe for building attacks. Cisse can hold the ball up. Playing up front on his own at Freiburg he was brilliant at it. I've never seen him play for Freiburg, but I simply don't believe that. He's absolutely terrible at it, even worse than Ba. Me neither but i would imagine when he played up front on his own at Freiberg he wasn't having balls fired at his head and instead was getting balls played through midfield and then down the side of centre backs for him to run on too. Quite clearly, because that's what he's good at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Two defensive midfielders in the centre and two centre forwards who can't hold the ball up. Not a recipe for building attacks. Cisse can hold the ball up. Playing up front on his own at Freiburg he was brilliant at it. I've never seen him play for Freiburg, but I simply don't believe that. He's absolutely terrible at it, even worse than Ba. Might help if the midfielders weren't consistently so far when they received the ball, and if it wasn't booted quite so hard at them, but I agree with the sentiment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Two defensive midfielders in the centre and two centre forwards who can't hold the ball up. Not a recipe for building attacks. Cisse can hold the ball up. Playing up front on his own at Freiburg he was brilliant at it. I've never seen him play for Freiburg, but I simply don't believe that. He's absolutely terrible at it, even worse than Ba. Me neither but i would imagine when he played up front on his own at Freiberg he wasn't having balls fired at his head and instead was getting balls played through midfield and then down the side of centre backs for him to run on too. Think of Bent at the mackems or early days Villa, but with an obviously better all-round game. That's the type of forward he is. BTW that's not to say he can only play up top on his own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Two defensive midfielders in the centre and two centre forwards who can't hold the ball up. Not a recipe for building attacks. Cisse can hold the ball up. Playing up front on his own at Freiburg he was brilliant at it. didn't he play up top 'on his own' in our 4-3-3 spell? Seemed to work well.. The issue isn't that he's up top alone, it's that we want to use him as a target man, someone who enjoys physical scraps with centre-halves, something who battles with his back to goal, someone who is skilful enough to hold the ball when he has two or three players crowding around him. Well he's not that sort of player. in the slightest. But what he can do is respond to good movement around him, play on the shoulder of the last defender, be part of quick, incisive counter-attacks, move into space and play simple passes when the other attackers show for the ball and so on. Not every lone striker need be a target man with physical presence, look at Defoe's form this season for example, or to be even more blindingly obvious, Falcao and Messi when they play in a front 3. You will have to look quite far to see an example of a player being as poorly utilised as Cisse is right now - both in terms of how the team around him plays, and what he himself is expected to do. Looks absolutely bereft of ability and confidence. Pardew's use of his Cisse this season is worse than Allardyce putting Martins out wide, for instance. In fact it's even worse than those infamous matches when Souness put Shola on the left-wing, because you're wasting a far bigger asset than Ameobi. it's absolutely criminal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiLvOR Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Just got back from this, not really sure where to begin in all honesty. Having said that, I'll start with the positives . The beginning of the second half, we looked like we were actually playing football. Anita was pushed further up the field and we kept it on the floor and looked like we would actually threaten. Then the second goal went in. The fact that we made Southampton look a lot better than us is really quite ridiculous. We struggled to string two passes together for a lot of the game and as soon as they scored the second we really did just have no clue. Resorting to punting it up field to non existent target men, which resulted in us constantly losing possession didn't help us get a foothold in the game at all. Without Tim Krul and the goal posts we would have lost this 6-0 and that's not even exaggerating. It's obvious to say, but Williamson and Simpson really aren't good enough for our ambitions of where we want to be. Santon had a pretty poor game for us as well, although I did like how he came over to apologise after the game. Sammy was shocking, first touch was ridiculously bad. Cisse was trying throughout, but with literally no service what the hell can the guy be expected to do? Jonas was awful as well, gave it away so many times and looked really pedestrian, going through the motions for the duration. Yet I can't really see how we're going to change things until January. If we're going to play the long ball then so be it, but we need a target man. No good pinging it to Cisse's nut, he isn't going to hold it up as that's not his game. Been done to death about formations and so forth, but I really can't see us getting another win any time soon in a 4-4-2 with seemingly no coherent game plan. Alarm bells might be ringing soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sempuki Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 The only highlight was Sammy the Saint's Gangnam style performance! Sammy the footballer was not very good at all. It has to be said we never really looked like scoring and without Ben Arfa we didn't have anyone who could create something. The floated free kick routine to Williamson was employed again without any success. Getting rather worried now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Geordie Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Alarm bells are ringing now, surely?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Two defensive midfielders in the centre and two centre forwards who can't hold the ball up. Not a recipe for building attacks. Cisse can hold the ball up. Playing up front on his own at Freiburg he was brilliant at it. I've never seen him play for Freiburg, but I simply don't believe that. He's absolutely terrible at it, even worse than Ba. Me neither but i would imagine when he played up front on his own at Freiberg he wasn't having balls fired at his head and instead was getting balls played through midfield and then down the side of centre backs for him to run on too. I wasn't particularly wanting to single out Cisse in my original post. My point was that you need at least one of your midfielders to link with the strikers, and one of your strikers to link with the midfield. Otherwise not much happens. For sure, Cisse doesn't win many long balls, but he's been struggling to control balls that have been played to his feet. I'm sure the general set up of the team hasn't helped his confidence, but he really does look like a specialist finisher. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Two defensive midfielders in the centre and two centre forwards who can't hold the ball up. Not a recipe for building attacks. Cisse can hold the ball up. Playing up front on his own at Freiburg he was brilliant at it. didn't he play up top 'on his own' in our 4-3-3 spell? Seemed to work well.. The issue isn't that he's up top alone, it's that we want to use him as a target man, someone who enjoys physical scraps with centre-halves, something who battles with his back to goal, someone who is skilful enough to hold the ball when he has two or three players crowding around him. Well he's not that sort of player. in the slightest. But what he can do is respond to good movement around him, play on the shoulder of the last defender, be part of quick, incisive counter-attacks, move into space and play simple passes when the other attackers show for the ball and so on. Not every lone striker need be a target man with physical presence, look at Defoe's form this season for example, or to be even more blindingly obvious, Falcao and Messi when they play in a front 3. You will have to look quite far to see an example of a player being as poorly utilised as Cisse is right now - both in terms of how the team around him plays, and what he himself is expected to do. Looks absolutely bereft of ability and confidence. Pardew's use of his Cisse this season is worse than Allardyce putting Martins out wide, for instance. In fact it's even worse than those infamous matches when Souness put Shola on the left-wing, because you're wasting a far bigger asset than Ameobi. it's absolutely criminal. Excellent post as usual. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Alarm bells are ringing now, surely?! If people haven't been alarmed by any of the following: Our last 3 results v West Ham, Swansea and Southampton not exactly the hardest set of games. Our performances all season Tactics Then I don't know when the alarm bells will ring for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiLvOR Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Alarm bells are ringing now, surely?! If people haven't been alarmed by any of the following: Our last 3 results v West Ham, Swansea and Southampton not exactly the hardest set of games. Our performances all season Tactics Then I don't know when the alarm bells will ring for them. If we don't reinforce in Jan, then I'll go full blown panic mode. Until then I'm holding on to a very small grain of hope that we can turn it around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugoinufc Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 we are worse than ever and pardew is 100% to blame imo, sadly. He really seems clueless. This season is gone....so give him a 1 month or 2 more to turn things around.....if he cant makes us play football then he must go. No development. no progress. no nothing. The players must be really really frustrated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 most people would agree he deserves until the end of the season but at what cost? we let him stay til after january, one or two small signings, then the window closed. isnt that too late to sack the guy, the new man can't make any changes in personel plus he would have to work with the same turds such as Carver and Co. You know we can never get rid of those cretins who just keeps clinging on or keeps coming back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilko Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Why are you slagging off Carver? The man has forgotten what you haven't even learned yet, when it comes to knowing about football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Why are you slagging off Carver? The man has forgotten what you haven't even learned yet, when it comes to knowing about football. get lost, shows how much you know, with your stupid response. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Why are you slagging off Carver? The man has forgotten what you haven't even learned yet, when it comes to knowing about football. get lost, shows how much you know, with your stupid response. http://i.imgur.com/MkPZn.gif Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 get lost, shows how much you know, with your stupid response. Carver was assistant here during our best spell for years, I don't see anything in his past to suggest that he's at fault for what we're going through now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormy Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Neil FFS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 get lost, shows how much you know, with your stupid response. Carver was assistant here during our best spell for years, I don't see anything in his past to suggest that he's at fault for what we're going through now. he's in charge of organizing our attacks is he not, Carver said it himself he is the one that works on how to break down the opposition, so he's partly to blame for the hoof ball. i know its sad that a manager like pardew who gets paid thousands of pounds can't handle organizing both defense and attack, but thats besides the point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilko Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Why are you slagging off Carver? The man has forgotten what you haven't even learned yet, when it comes to knowing about football. get lost, shows how much you know, with your stupid response. areet then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ste Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Carver gets one session a week to work with the players on attacking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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