AyeDubbleYoo Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Think it's a question of whether people think the team needs his qualities or we would be better off sacrificing them for more attacking flair. The evidence is there that we aren't better off for it. When he's been forcibly sacrificed we have conceded by the bucket load. True, but it could be argued that the defensive solidity could be achieved elsewhere in the team and in other ways. I don't mind Jonas as an option and as long as we don't expect him to create or score much. He must be a nightmare to play against. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I find it worrying that a manager is so reliant on his left winger to not concede to 6 and 7 goal scorelines. Indeed. Santon, Haidara or Ferguson are going to have to get their arses in gear. I had a feeling this would be the response like, and to a point I agree. Nothing at all to do with coaching though I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Think it's a question of whether people think the team needs his qualities or we would be better off sacrificing them for more attacking flair. The evidence is there that we aren't better off for it. When he's been forcibly sacrificed we have conceded by the bucket load. True, but it could be argued that the defensive solidity could be achieved elsewhere in the team and in other ways. This is pretty much the crux of the matter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Looking at the other end of the spectrum there is a level of 'confirmation' of which defensive players have let us down... Worst 5 Tiote - 41.3 minutes per goal conceded Sissoko - 42.7 Perch - 43.5 Marveaux - 46.7 Debuchy - 47 Tiote has been more of a liability than a help in shoring up our defence this season. His mistakes seem to be getting more and more frequent. Sissoko can't really be blamed. Never played where he is used to. Should really be playing deeper and making occasional forward runs to add to the chaos during times of pressure or when he spots a gap. The others...what we all knew. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Think it's a question of whether people think the team needs his qualities or we would be better off sacrificing them for more attacking flair. The evidence is there that we aren't better off for it. When he's been forcibly sacrificed we have conceded by the bucket load. That being said , we are conceding alot with him in the team as well. I can see Colo impact on the team's stability but i would not over state the importance of Jonas by too much. A defensive manager will definitely pick Jonas week in and week out, but a more balance one would have at least rotated him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Looking at the other end of the spectrum there is a level of 'confirmation' of which defensive players have let us down... Worst 5 Tiote - 41.3 minutes per goal conceded Sissoko - 42.7 Perch - 43.5 Marveaux - 46.7 Debuchy - 47 Tiote has been more of a liability than a help in shoring up our defence this season. His mistakes seem to be getting more and more frequent. Sissoko can't really be blamed. Never played where he is used to. Should really be playing deeper and making occasional forward runs to add to the chaos during times of pressure or when he spots a gap. The others...what we all knew. There's not much of a level of confirmation there at all, though, given the relative absence of any context. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Looking at the other end of the spectrum there is a level of 'confirmation' of which defensive players have let us down... Worst 5 Tiote - 41.3 minutes per goal conceded Sissoko - 42.7 Perch - 43.5 Marveaux - 46.7 Debuchy - 47 Tiote has been more of a liability than a help in shoring up our defence this season. His mistakes seem to be getting more and more frequent. Sissoko can't really be blamed. Never played where he is used to. Should really be playing deeper and making occasional forward runs to add to the chaos during times of pressure or when he spots a gap. The others...what we all knew. There's not much of a level of confirmation there at all, though, given the relative absence of any context. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Tiote has been more of a liability than a help in shoring up our defence this season. His mistakes seem to be getting more and more frequent. Yet he still gets played every game regardless of the opposition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Looking at the other end of the spectrum there is a level of 'confirmation' of which defensive players have let us down... Worst 5 Tiote - 41.3 minutes per goal conceded Sissoko - 42.7 Perch - 43.5 Marveaux - 46.7 Debuchy - 47 Tiote has been more of a liability than a help in shoring up our defence this season. His mistakes seem to be getting more and more frequent. Sissoko can't really be blamed. Never played where he is used to. Should really be playing deeper and making occasional forward runs to add to the chaos during times of pressure or when he spots a gap. The others...what we all knew. There's not much of a level of confirmation there at all, though, given the relative absence of any context. True, what else can we add to it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Looking at the other end of the spectrum there is a level of 'confirmation' of which defensive players have let us down... Worst 5 Tiote - 41.3 minutes per goal conceded Sissoko - 42.7 Perch - 43.5 Marveaux - 46.7 Debuchy - 47 Tiote has been more of a liability than a help in shoring up our defence this season. His mistakes seem to be getting more and more frequent. Sissoko can't really be blamed. Never played where he is used to. Should really be playing deeper and making occasional forward runs to add to the chaos during times of pressure or when he spots a gap. The others...what we all knew. Which also points to Pardew selection flaws, which he selects player not based on merits. Just because they are more aggressive and defensive. Tiote has been a liability for much of the season but he still prefers him there because of his defensive nature of a manager. The amount of misplace passes or invisible performances from Tiote has a big impact on our performances this year. Pardew selections has been flawed this year but he repeatly make those mistakes because he believes its the way forward. Not sure about others but this is worrying since the manager in charge is making glaring mistakes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 It's possible he believes Tiote is a good player and will improve given a run of games. And also there is a lack of good alternatives if you believe a dedicated DM is needed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Looking at the other end of the spectrum there is a level of 'confirmation' of which defensive players have let us down... Worst 5 Tiote - 41.3 minutes per goal conceded Sissoko - 42.7 Perch - 43.5 Marveaux - 46.7 Debuchy - 47 Tiote has been more of a liability than a help in shoring up our defence this season. His mistakes seem to be getting more and more frequent. Sissoko can't really be blamed. Never played where he is used to. Should really be playing deeper and making occasional forward runs to add to the chaos during times of pressure or when he spots a gap. The others...what we all knew. There's not much of a level of confirmation there at all, though, given the relative absence of any context. True, what else can we add to it? What do you reckon would qualify as "context" for a stat like that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Looking at the other end of the spectrum there is a level of 'confirmation' of which defensive players have let us down... Worst 5 Tiote - 41.3 minutes per goal conceded Sissoko - 42.7 Perch - 43.5 Marveaux - 46.7 Debuchy - 47 Tiote has been more of a liability than a help in shoring up our defence this season. His mistakes seem to be getting more and more frequent. Sissoko can't really be blamed. Never played where he is used to. Should really be playing deeper and making occasional forward runs to add to the chaos during times of pressure or when he spots a gap. The others...what we all knew. There's not much of a level of confirmation there at all, though, given the relative absence of any context. True, what else can we add to it? You'd have to weight it against teams played against. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Which also points to Pardew selection flaws, which he selects player not based on merits. Just because they are more aggressive and defensive. Tiote has been a liability for much of the season but he still prefers him there because of his defensive nature of a manager. The amount of misplace passes or invisible performances from Tiote has a big impact on our performances this year. Pardew selections has been flawed this year but he repeatly make those mistakes because he believes its the way forward. Not sure about others but this is worrying since the manager in charge is making glaring mistakes. I'm sure this was said yesterday, but I'm not sure Tiote has ever been invisible. He's never hidden in any game I've seen. His problem is despite being solid for most of the game he makes errors that cost us dear. Certainly moreso this season. He's one of the internationals at the club being played where he is most comfortable though. There is an argument that Perch has had a better season when played, so he should play. If he made that selection choice though, the amount of grief given to Pardew on here would be unreal. Guaranteed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Think it's a question of whether people think the team needs his qualities or we would be better off sacrificing them for more attacking flair. The evidence is there that we aren't better off for it. When he's been forcibly sacrificed we have conceded by the bucket load. Pardew is reliant on players like Jonas because of the way he sets the team up, it's a damning indictment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Interestingly, Tiote hasn't made a single error this season that has led directly to a goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Which also points to Pardew selection flaws, which he selects player not based on merits. Just because they are more aggressive and defensive. Tiote has been a liability for much of the season but he still prefers him there because of his defensive nature of a manager. The amount of misplace passes or invisible performances from Tiote has a big impact on our performances this year. Pardew selections has been flawed this year but he repeatly make those mistakes because he believes its the way forward. Not sure about others but this is worrying since the manager in charge is making glaring mistakes. I'm sure this was said yesterday, but I'm not Sure Tiote has ever been invisible. He's never hidden in any game I've seen. His problem is he despite being solid for most of the game he makes errors that cost us dear. Certainly moreso this season. He's one of the internationals at the club being played where he is most comfortable though. There is an argument that Perch has had a better season when played, so he should play. If he made that selection choice though, the amount of grief given to Pardew on here would be unreal. Guaranteed. Good at least we do agree , selection isn't Pardews greatest asset. I have point out that Pardew have merits in trying to achieve a solid tight unit in a team and team moral. Could you point out to me where else you think Pardew is a big plus for us? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Think it's a question of whether people think the team needs his qualities or we would be better off sacrificing them for more attacking flair. The evidence is there that we aren't better off for it. When he's been forcibly sacrificed we have conceded by the bucket load. True, but it could be argued that the defensive solidity could be achieved elsewhere in the team and in other ways. I don't mind Jonas as an option and as long as we don't expect him to create or score much. He must be a nightmare to play against. Depends who you are, if I'm a full back playing at St James and I see I'm up against Jonas I'm happy. Pardew doesn't want our team to give the other teams defence nightmares. He's much more interested in us posing a problem to their attackers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Which also points to Pardew selection flaws, which he selects player not based on merits. Just because they are more aggressive and defensive. Tiote has been a liability for much of the season but he still prefers him there because of his defensive nature of a manager. The amount of misplace passes or invisible performances from Tiote has a big impact on our performances this year. Pardew selections has been flawed this year but he repeatly make those mistakes because he believes its the way forward. Not sure about others but this is worrying since the manager in charge is making glaring mistakes. I'm sure this was said yesterday, but I'm not sure Tiote has ever been invisible. He's never hidden in any game I've seen. His problem is despite being solid for most of the game he makes errors that cost us dear. Certainly moreso this season. He's one of the internationals at the club being played where he is most comfortable though. There is an argument that Perch has had a better season when played, so he should play. If he made that selection choice though, the amount of grief given to Pardew on here would be unreal. Guaranteed. No it wouldn't and it's actually been suggested many times, especially after it became clear that Tiote just wasn't getting better. I'd personally rather stick with Tiote than Perch like, purely because he is capable of far more. But we can make a midfield due/trio out of Cabaye, Sissoko, Anita, Marveaux, Bigirimana and even Jonas, yet when Tiote is fit, regardless of who we play and whether or not we're at home, he'll start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Interestingly, Tiote hasn't made a single error this season that has led directly to a goal. Even more interestingly, Tiote's only ever error leading directly to a goal was in his first season when people thought he was playing his best football for us. /shockingstatsshockingtheworld Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilko Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Doesn't surprise me, that stat about Tiote and the most goals conceded. Some of his more shambolic, ineffective performances have resulted in games where we've shipped 3, 4, 6 and 7. The Arsenal away game was, and still is, the point of no return for Tiote for me. It was the most lazy, ill-disciplined and fucking shite performance I've seen from a centre-mid since the days of Amdy Faye and Nicky Butt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Looking at the other end of the spectrum there is a level of 'confirmation' of which defensive players have let us down... Worst 5 Tiote - 41.3 minutes per goal conceded Sissoko - 42.7 Perch - 43.5 Marveaux - 46.7 Debuchy - 47 Tiote has been more of a liability than a help in shoring up our defence this season. His mistakes seem to be getting more and more frequent. Sissoko can't really be blamed. Never played where he is used to. Should really be playing deeper and making occasional forward runs to add to the chaos during times of pressure or when he spots a gap. The others...what we all knew. There's not much of a level of confirmation there at all, though, given the relative absence of any context. True, what else can we add to it? You'd have to weight it against teams played against. And also the period of the game that the player was on the pitch for. I think more goals are scored towards the end of the game for example and we're not comparing players that have played 90 minutes at a time in every case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I'm still baffled by that comment from Pardew about getting Tiote OUT of the habit of just winning it and giving it. He seems to have been worse and worse since then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I'm still baffled by that comment from Pardew about getting Tiote OUT of the habit of just winning it and giving it. He seems to have been worse and worse since then. I'm not, he's a confused man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Doesn't surprise me, that stat about Tiote and the most goals conceded. Some of his more shambolic, ineffective performances have resulted in games where we've shipped 3, 4, 6 and 7. The Arsenal away game was, and still is, the point of no return for Tiote for me. It was the most lazy, ill-disciplined and fucking shite performance I've seen from a centre-mid since the days of Amdy Faye and Nicky Butt. We haven't conceded 4 in a game when Tiote has played this season, unless you count Liverpool where it was 4-0 by the time he went off Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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