The Return of Terraces ("safe standing")?

[merlin]

I'd love for them to come back, not that I've ever experienced it beyond standing at away games etc. The lessons learnt from the likes of Hillsborough should be used for progress, not to maintain a climate of fear forever more. It was a long time ago now, the health and safety standards of then and now aren't even comparable.

 

Sadly I don't think it'll be done any time soon.

 

This is true Dave - I have stood many times at a packed SJP/Gallowgate/Leazes End and never once did I feel in danger, even during the Fairs Cup Final in 1969 when we could sway down several terraces after a goal was scored. Hillsborough should not have been used to wipe out standing and why should the views of one club - Liverpool - be allowed to dictate to the rest of football?  I have my own views about what happened there and isn't it interesting that Liverpool afficionados, like the BBC etc, never mention their fans' part in the debacle v Juventus in 1985 which was 4 years prior to Hillsborough...? If that had been NUFC fans, we'd never have heard the last of it - some in the media still drag up the pitch invasion v Forest during the FA Cup tie in 1974 even though nobody was seriously injured, as a club to beat NUFC fans with...

 

Unfortunately, the world is now run for the benefit of Human Rights Lawyers and those who make a living chasing ambulances to sign up damages claimants so they clubs are unlikely to want standing areas returned, just in case.....

 

I broadly agree, but you're being a bit paranoid about the 1974 pitch invasion . I think that very few, if any, younger non-Newcastle United fans will have heard of it, whereas many will know about Heysel. Not that there isn't a solid pro-Liverpool bias in the media in general.

 

It's sad that even someone as long-standing a supporter as Dave can say that he hasn't stood at St James' Park. We're heading towards a time when two whole generations will be able to say that, and I think it's a real pity. It was a completely different experience, and I feel incredibly lucky to have experienced it. We should be able to do so again.

 

The 1974 pitch invasion at SJP was even mentioned in David Peace's recent book, 'Red or Dead' about Bill Shankly's time at Liverpool and his life afterwards; despite the writer surely having some knowledge about both Heysel and Hillsborough, he still mentioned this and even stated that one of the Forest players was injured, which is exaggeration to say the least.

The insinuation was clearly that NUFC had no right to be in the Semis because had the 'invasion' not happened, they would have lost to Forest - it may be true, it may not but he still saw fit to bring it up..

[Felling Mag]

I am 100% in support of a safe standing area in SJP. I would move my season ticket there in a heart beat, even if it remained at the same price. Even better if it's a bit cheaper.

 

As someone else mentioned, the upper tiers of the Gallowgate end would be perfect for it!

[TheGuv]

Ditto!

 

However, i think the Milburn Paddock would also be great

[Mick]

I suspect (maybe wroongly) that it would always be the lower tiers due to H&S?

 

The East and West paddocks could probably just be lifted out as they were added after the stands.

[LFEE]

I was thinking about the whole H&S issues with this sat on the bus on the the way to the match... As others had to stand... As the bus hurtled around... at speeds over 30mph...

 

Bring it back ASAP safely... Not sat at an away ground over the last 23 years of travelling...

[Matt]

I suspect (maybe wrongly) that it would always be the lower tiers due to H&S?

 

If the right barriers are in place then it's no different to the current situation with all-seater.

 

While I've seen from pictures that some clubs in Germany 'double up' on rows, I think the only sensible approach here is to have one row per barrier with each person given a row and seat number. It should in theory make no difference to capacity, you are simply replacing a bucket seat with a rail seat.

[cp40]

I suspect (maybe wroongly) that it would always be the lower tiers due to H&S?

 

The East and West paddocks could probably just be lifted out as they were added after the stands.

 

yep- standing behind seats as some have suggested always feels off to me.

 

 

[LFEE]

Aye...H&S is pretty patronising most of the time.

 

Yep... I should know I worked in it for 2yr...

[Mick]

Aye...H&S is pretty patronising most of the time.

 

It has to be unfortunately, it's amazing how many accidents are caused by people ignoring the obvious.

[wyn davies]

Standing on the terraces was a nightmare when you were a youngin in the 60's &70's, pushing and shovin all over place, could hardly see the game, needing the toilet and not wanting to move cause you'll lose your spot, best place I found was in the Popular side near the 10minute flag.

[Dave]

Daily Heil link but some great photos here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2532755/Anfield-Old-Trafford-Stamford-Bridge-Golden-Years-Terraces-special.html

[henke]

It should in theory make no difference to capacity, you are simply replacing a bucket seat with a rail seat.

 

On the videos i've seen the germans use seats that lock in the the up position, with a rail on every row. It's no longer a case of a person is allocated a specific seat / place because there are no specific places. But they can fit maybe 50% extra people on each row so the capacity is increased.

[Disco]

It should in theory make no difference to capacity, you are simply replacing a bucket seat with a rail seat.

 

On the videos i've seen the germans use seats that lock in the the up position, with a rail on every row. It's no longer a case of a person is allocated a specific seat / place because there are no specific places. But they can fit maybe 50% extra people on each row so the capacity is increased.

 

Taken from the fan meeting minutes

What is the club's stance on standing?

 

SS stated that current rules require all-seater stadiums and that persistent standing is a breach of ground regulations. SS explained that he is aware of all the petitions and rail seats, but until the legislation changes, the club would be unable do anything about it.

 

SH and AMc proposed that the club could fit "1.8 people per 'seat'" into a standing section and therefore sell out in excess of 52,000 supporters.

[Ryan_Taylor]

Given the choice. I don't think id stand like

[Belfast Mags]

Given the choice. I don't think id stand like

 

Why? Standing is immense at a football ground

[Disco]

Given the choice. I don't think id stand like

 

If you had a set place where you could I would, if you had to pile into the ground at 1-1:30pm I'd just sit near the terraces.

[colinmk]

Given the choice. I don't think id stand like

 

If you had a set place where you could I would, if you had to pile into the ground at 1-1:30pm I'd just sit near the terraces.

 

Aye good point that, any idea how they do it in Deutschland?

[Disco]

Given the choice. I don't think id stand like

 

If you had a set place where you could I would, if you had to pile into the ground at 1-1:30pm I'd just sit near the terraces.

 

Aye good point that, any idea how they do it in Deutschland?

 

Nee idea, they all seem to pile in early doors in the ultra areas or away from home but not sure if that is just a cultural thing.

[Dave]

Surprised this wasn't bumped the other day:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26158044

Aston Villa keen to trial standing area at Villa Park

By Dan Roan BBC chief sports correspondent

 

Aston Villa have told the BBC that almost half the clubs in the Premier League are interested in reintroducing standing at their stadiums.

 

Villa have offered to conduct a trial of 'rail-seats' at Villa Park.

 

Their football operations manager Lee Preece said: "We'd be interested in a trial at Villa Park if that would help.

 

"We've identified areas we could use for a small-scale trial so the rest of football could see if it works within a Premier League environment."

 

He added: "There's at least seven or eight clubs that have come forward to say they are also interested in furthering the debate."

 

Preece was speaking at Ashton Gate where League One Bristol City plan to become the first club in the United Kingdom to install rail seats, which have been pioneered in the German Bundesliga.

 

The seats can either be unlocked or locked to create a standing or seated area inside a stadium.

 

Regulations currently prohibit their use in English football, so they will initially be used for rugby games at Ashton Gate.

 

"The desire to further the debate is moving quickly," said Preece.

 

"But we're keen to support the Football Supporters' Federation and advance the debate so we can get to the point where we can decide if we're going to do this or not.

 

"The supporters will see the benefits of their own matchday experience in terms of atmosphere.

 

"For us as a club, perhaps the biggest advantage is around the issue of fans standing in areas that are licensed for seating only. "

 

The Football League has agreed to lobby the Government in a bid to permit "safe standing" areas in the game.

 

All-seater stadiums have been compulsory in the Premier League and Championship since an inquiry into the 1989 Hillsborough disaster, which claimed the lives of 96 Liverpool fans.

 

The disaster occurred when 96 supporters died after being crushed within Sheffield Wednesday's stadium during their FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest.

 

Margaret Aspinall, who lost her son James in the tragedy and is the chair of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, called the timing of the trial "insensitive" and claimed the idea was a backward step.

 

The group is currently preparing for new inquests into the tragedy to start and Aspinall said they would be writing to every league club to urge them to reject any plans to introduce safe standing areas.

 

"I find it very insensitive at this moment in time because obviously the most important thing for the families is these inquests," said Aspinall.

 

"We've got the 25th anniversary coming up, now we feel as if this is like another battle. We feel as if 'why bring it up at this time when we've not had any accountability whatsoever for the 96 deaths'.

 

"I just wish the 96 could have been at an all-seater stadium. It cost them their lives for us to try and make it safe for everybody else, so please try and understand our position. We are not opposing. We are not against you. All we want is your safety."

 

Standing is allowed in League One and League Two, but Championship grounds must be all-seater if clubs have played in the second tier for at least three consecutive seasons.

 

Promising stuff. Really pisses me off how it always comes back to Hillsborough though. I thought the whole point of the families' fight for justice was to prove that the disaster wasn't just down to the fact there was a load of fans crammed into a small space? There were loads of other factors.

 

Football in general is miles safer than it was then, standing or sitting. Why punish ourselves forever more 'because Hillsborough'?

[Pav]

Just to follow that up, Manchester United have also come out in favour of Safe Standing:

 

The campaign to see safe standing introduced into English football stadiums has been handed a major boost after Manchester United declared their support for the first time.

At a fans' forum last Friday, executive vice-chairman Ed Woodward was pressed on the issue by supporters and he went on record to pledge the Premier League champions' backing for the introduction of a safe standing area at Old Trafford. A senior source from the fanzine Red News told Sportsmail: ‘Ed Woodward confirmed that the club now supports the principle of safe standing, and will argue for it at pertinent meetings.’

 

Rest can be read here.

 

Here's a video on the small safe standing area that's been built at Bristol City:

 

 

A lot of progress in a short space of time, it seems encouraging.

[henke]

It seems like this is really gaining momentum now.

 

Villas spokesman made me laugh mind. They'd be interested in trialling it to see if it would work, I mean how's it not gonna work? What qualifies as a success? I know lets do a trial at villa park 5000 standing places and if nobody dies we can have them at SJP too.

[Guest alijmitchell]

The Gallowgate capacity would have to stay the same - I think there would be a worry about escape routes for overcrowding. Getting out of the gallowgate onto that upper concourse bit a nightmare as it is.

[Dave]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28886330

Safe standing: Lib Dems make 2015 General Election pledge

By Richard Conway BBC Radio 5 live sports news correspondent

 

The Liberal Democrats want to change the law and allow Premier League and Championship clubs to introduce safe standing at stadiums.

 

The party has confirmed to BBC Sport it plans to make the pledge as part of its 2015 General Election manifesto.

 

Currently, the Football Spectators Act 1989 requires safety authorities to ensure fans attending games in England's top two divisions are seated.

 

However, the party is not advocating a return to open terracing.

 

It believes rail seats, popular in German football, should be introduced if clubs wish to install standing sections.

 

Rail seats can be locked in an upright position to allow fans to stand and lean against a barrier.

 

However, the seats can also be unlocked to comply with all-seater stadium rules, as and when required.

 

The Football Supporters' Federation (FSF) has led a campaign in favour of safe standing for several years.

 

"Football can't bury its head in the sand," said an FSF spokesman. "Tens of thousands already stand at games.

 

Who uses rail seats?

 

They are used at grounds in countries like Austria, Germany and Sweden.

 

A number of teams in Germany's Bundesliga use them, including Bayer Leverkusen, Borussia Dortmund, Hamburg and Werder Bremen.

 

They can be unlocked or locked to create a standing or seated area. In Germany, seats are used for European matches but not league games.

 

"Clubs who back rail seats are simply listening to their fans and responding to safety needs.

 

"Germany has had rail seats for many years and they have had no problems. The Government tells us it needs robust proof, so let's have a trial and see."

 

Several Premier League clubs - including Aston Villa, Burnley, Crystal Palace, Sunderland and Swansea City - now back the introduction of rail seats on a trial basis.

 

The Football League has also lobbied for a change in legislation given a number of its 72 clubs would like to implement standing in their grounds.

 

Chief executive Shaun Harvey said: "Since being given a mandate by our clubs to lobby for a change to the law on the use of standing accommodation, we have had useful discussions with the Sports Minister and other relevant stakeholders on this matter.

 

"We recognise that this is an extremely emotive issue and that significant change isn't necessarily going to happen overnight. However, a logical first step would be for safe standing products, such as rail-seating, to be licensed for use by the relevant authorities. This would enable one of the 21 Football League clubs that is not currently required by law to have an all-seater stadium to install a pilot scheme at its ground.

 

"This would give everybody greater insight into the use of this type of accommodation and help take the debate forward in a cautious and responsible manner, as it would not require any changes to the existing law as these clubs are already permitted to have fans standing at their matches."

 

However, the Premier League has reiterated its opposition, telling BBC Sport: "It remains the Premier League's position that stadiums should be all-seat, in line with government policy, and we will not be encouraging the government to change the law."

 

Liberal Democrat spokesperson John Leech MP believes the evidence to allow standing is overwhelming.

 

"Safe standing is allowed in many other sports and we do not believe that the top level of football should be an exception," he said.

 

"We are not calling for a return of the terraces of the 1980s. Modern safe standing areas using rail seating operate very successfully in top-tier football across Europe."

 

With the Liberal Democrats struggling in the polls, an outright victory for the party in next year's election may seem unlikely.

 

However, the formation of another coalition government could see safe standing feature in any negotiations between the parties over a combined legislative agenda.

 

Following the recommendations of Lord Justice Taylor's report into the Hillsborough disaster in 1989, in which 96 Liverpool fans lost their lives, clubs in the top two tiers of English football have been required to provide every spectator with a seat.

 

The Liberal Democrat pledge promises to amend the law to allow safety authorities in England and Wales to issue guidance to clubs on how safe standing could be introduced.

 

The FSF also claims safe standing would make it cheaper for fans to watch games.

 

"Standing areas in safety-conscious nations such as Germany are traditionally far cheaper, with season tickets available for a fraction of the cost at equivalent-sized clubs in the UK," added the spokesman.

 

Leech agrees, adding: "Safe standing offers supporters more choice, a better atmosphere and cheaper tickets. It is an idea whose time has come and I am proud that it is the Liberal Democrats who are the first political party to commit to delivering this."

 

Earlier this year, Bristol City installed a small section of rail seats at their Ashton Gate stadium.

 

However, they are only able to utilise them during Bristol Rugby games which also take place at the ground.

 

Scottish Premiership clubs are also strong backers of safe standing.

 

However, Celtic's application to install a section of rail seating was rejected by Glasgow City Council earlier this month.

 

The council claimed Celtic's plan did not offer enough assurances to its safety advice group, which included representatives from the emergency services.

 

In Wales, Assembly members recently voted 26-1 to support the introduction of safe standing, believing that football should be no different from rugby or other sports.

 

However, as the laws relating to standing are not devolved, any change in Wales would require Westminster MPs to vote in favour of reform.

 

Strong opposition to standing does remain, with the Association of Chief Police Officers saying previously that they would need to be convinced over whether it could work within some of England's largest stadiums.

 

The Hillsborough Families Support Group have also steadfastly maintained their position against any return of standing.

[Felling Mag]

Pity (in this case anyway) that nobody gives a shit about what the Lib Dems say.

[Pav]

Documentary in the works about safe standing, gives a good idea of how the rail-seat areas work:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sit-down-shut-up