Squad & tactics (2023/24)

[Viana]

1 hour ago, Shak said:

Anyone maybe seeing why some people really wanted the Maddison thing to happen?

 

Big concern for the rest of the season is that once Liverpool basically decided to sit back and invite us to break them down we were pretty clueless.

 

A Liverpool team who were without one starting CB and had the other sent off, no less. And who are generally not thought as being very good defensively, anyway.

 

It's the big concern I have with the team we've built. There's a real lack of quality final ball in our team and I do worry we're in for a few frustrating afternoons. Our group of wingers are all high energy and direct but is there much in the way of craft there? Joelinton and Willock both offer a lot as LCMs but neither of them are who you want getting on the ball in the final third and trying to unpick a well organised deep defense.

We have to be a bit careful here. 

 

That's an elite Liverpool squad that just dropped 120m on midfielders. They brought on a 80million striker without blinking. I don't know how often we'll face that kind of quality sitting off us and asking us to break them down. Throw in the fact Allison bailed them out and we fluffed some good half chances. It's a perfect storm of events that contributed to this defeat. 

 

We can still make changed to the midfield so Bruno is slightly further up. If anything I think Howe has geared our transfers so that we have versatility and different options in different positions. We don't have the financial flexibility to buy specialists like James Maddison. 

[Sempiternal]

Just now, Viana said:

We have to be a bit careful here. 

 

That's an elite Liverpool squad that just dropped 120m on midfielders. They brought on a 80million striker without blinking. I don't know how often we'll face that kind of quality sitting off us and asking us to break them down. Throw in the fact Allison bailed them out and we fluffed some good half chances. It's a perfect storm of events that contributed to this defeat. 

 

We can still make changed to the midfield so Bruno is slightly further up. If anything I think Howe has geared our transfers so that we have versatility and different options in different positions. We don't have the financial flexibility to buy specialists like James Maddison. 

They have an absolutely elite front three but I disagree on the rest. Their defence is very far from elite, and they played with 10 men for a very long time. VVD is clearly physically declining, Robertson ditto, Joel Matip is very average. Trent is a great footballer but defensively you saw the worst side of him today. They were very vulnerable against Chelsea and Bournemouth, defensively and that was with 11 men. 

[The Prophet]

We also could have and should have scored at least one more to bury the game.

[Viana]

4 minutes ago, Sempiternal said:

They have an absolutely elite front three but I disagree on the rest. Their defence is very far from elite, and they played with 10 men for a very long time. VVD is clearly physically declining, Robertson ditto, Joel Matip is very average. Trent is a great footballer but defensively you saw the worst side of him today. They were very vulnerable against Chelsea and Bournemouth, defensively and that was with 11 men. 

I'll give you that. Allison, Robertson are very good and Trent's great on the ball, but still, the rest are in that upper echelon of players relative to the league whereby mistakes are few and far between. 

 

I also don't want this to get lost in the mire - we created a lot of chances we just didn't take. 

[Ronson333]

Just now, Viana said:

I'll give you that. Allison, Robertson are very good and Trent's great on the ball, but still, the rest are in that upper echelon of players relative to the league whereby mistakes are few and far between. 

 

I also don't want this to get lost in the mire - we created a lot of chances we just didn't take. 

 

Just now, Viana said:

I'll give you that. Allison, Robertson are very good and Trent's great on the ball, but still, the rest are in that upper echelon of players relative to the league whereby mistakes are few and far between. 

 

I also don't want this to get lost in the mire - we created a lot of chances we just didn't take. 

Robertson is declining, and by quite a few Liverpool fans I know he’s a liability.

[Sempiternal]

4 minutes ago, Viana said:

I'll give you that. Allison, Robertson are very good and Trent's great on the ball, but still, the rest are in that upper echelon of players relative to the league whereby mistakes are few and far between. 

 

I also don't want this to get lost in the mire - we created a lot of chances we just didn't take. 

Fair enough. Robertson has lost a step, agree at his peak though. I wouldn’t personally swap any of their defenders for ours, aside Trent and mainly because of his on ball ability. Keeper is insane of course. 
 

I get your point, but the only really glaring missed chance for me was the volley miggy ballooned over. The one that hit the post he created it himself. I didn’t feel like we got in enough dangerous situations playing against ten men. A draw would have been hurtful, losing from that position is mentally damaging, especially at home. Nunez is sadly kyrptonite for a fairly slow defence like ours. 

[Gallowgate Toon]

We've got to figure out more backup plans for Isak unless he's absolutely gassed. Or at least not make him play like a traditional #9 unless the game demands it.

[Viana]

13 minutes ago, Sempiternal said:

Fair enough. Robertson has lost a step, agree at his peak though. I wouldn’t personally swap any of their defenders for ours, aside Trent and mainly because of his on ball ability. Keeper is insane of course. 
 

I get your point, but the only really glaring missed chance for me was the volley miggy ballooned over. The one that hit the post he created it himself. I didn’t feel like we got in enough dangerous situations playing against ten men. A draw would have been hurtful, losing from that position is mentally damaging, especially at home. Nunez is sadly kyrptonite for a fairly slow defence like ours. 

Yeah, a bit like our loss there last year it's a huge test for them now. 

 

They have to come back and show they've got character, potentially without Botman there. 

[Ronson333]

We need one of our centre mids arriving late into the box for all the cut backs we do or crosses (like Tonali vs Villa). It’s so annoying to see the ball being squared and only Isak there and miggy on the other side. 

[Gazzaschicken]

34 minutes ago, Ronson333 said:

We need one of our centre mids arriving late into the box for all the cut backs we do or crosses (like Tonali vs Villa). It’s so annoying to see the ball being squared and only Isak there and miggy on the other side. 

This is where we miss willock imo

[Myleftboot]

                       Pope

trippier.     Shar.      Botman.      Hall

 

               Tonali.        Bruno

 

gordon.           Isak.              Willock

 

                      Wilson

 

Is what I would like to see. When everyone is match fit.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Myleftboot

[Yorkie]

I think it's clear that the most influential of our deficiencies against Brighton was the midfield. There was no defensive protection (the space Ferguson had for goal 2 was criminal) and there was no attacking impetus (picture the chance where Isak fired that low cross in, there was absolutely no one stealing in, again criminal). The individual performances were all below par and the chemistry is lacking too. After looking like they'd played together for years in the Villa game suddenly they look unsuited to each other. 

 

Howe has been absolutely wedded to the 4-3-3 since he arrived; we must be able to count on one hand the amount of times we've set up in an alternative formation in his whole tenure. I think it's highly unlikely at this point that he suddenly twists and reverts to a double-pivot, but I get the clamour for it after yesterday. 

 

I don't think it's impossible that one of them gets dropped though, and there's a good argument for all of them. Bruno, because his performances are on a downward trajectory; Tonali, because he hasn't found his role yet; Joelinton, because he's looked lethargic and there's an argument that he should be on the left - even at the expense of Gordon. 

 

I don't get what the intention is with Tonali at this point. Is he playing the Longstaff role from last season or is it something different? Even over this run of fixtures his contribution has changed quite a bit; from an all-action blockbuster performance all over the pitch against Villa, to a fairly limited nothingish role yesterday where he was definitively on the right, often wide. Meanwhile there's no collective effort tactically to get him on the ball where - I assume - he excels. 

 

Vs Villa:

 

 

Vs Liverpool:

 

 

Vs Brighton:

 

 

Ultimately I think it makes sense to persist with these three because the natural talent there is so high; there just needs to be more definition in their roles and generally just a higher level of performance from them. Easier said than done obviously. 

[madras]

He's been wedded to it so far here but hasn't been throughout his career, it's evolved. Partially through resources and partially (hopefully) through the game evolving generally.

 

The signings made don't point to 433 as we've been playing, being the future plan.

[buzza]

Aye, a 4-2-3-1 suddenly looks appetising.

Apart from thw obvious, I Would like to see Hall or livramento on the left as Target was very meh.. yesterday

[MrRaspberryJam]

5 minutes ago, buzza said:

Aye, a 4-2-3-1 suddenly looks appetising.

Apart from thw obvious, I Would like to see Hall or livramento on the left as Target was very meh.. yesterday

Harsh to single Targett out imo( this isn’t aimed specifically at you, seen a few people point him out). He wasn’t anywhere near being the worst on the pitch for us yesterday. He’s clearing nowhere near up to speed either given how little game time he’s had over the last 12 month. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by MrRaspberryJam

[buzza]

Aye, i just think that the left hand side has been "weak" both attack and defensive wise for a bit now. Targett probably needs 3-4 games just to get up to speed tbf, as do quite a few other judging by performances. We just seem "tired" already and can´t seem to keep up the high intensity for long.

[Yorkie]

One of the most concerning things yesterday was the impact losing Botman had.

 

Losing him means we have to make two changes atm, which is far from ideal, particularly with Burn rusty at CB (he's a LB now, he's been playing there constantly for ages) and Targett looking ropey in possession. If those two are going to perform like that then it's critical that we get Hall integrated as the starting LB so we don't have to reshuffle half the defence whenever Botman doesn't play. 

[Mikky]

I honestly think Tonali solves a lot of our issues if he’s used correctly 

 

Play him in the double pivot (left side) with Bruno - Tonali’s main job being to not only dictate play with the ball - simple passes to keep the ball moving - cover the left for when Hall goes forward - sometimes play as the 3rd CB 

 

Something like this 

 

                         Pope

           
                    Schar.    Botman 
Trippier

                       Bruno.         Tonali

                                                      Hall

 

Gordon               Isak.          Big Joe

                          Wilson

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Mikky

[The College Dropout]

On 27/08/2023 at 19:41, Shak said:

Anyone maybe seeing why some people really wanted the Maddison thing to happen?

 

Big concern for the rest of the season is that once Liverpool basically decided to sit back and invite us to break them down we were pretty clueless.

 

A Liverpool team who were without one starting CB and had the other sent off, no less. And who are generally not thought as being very good defensively, anyway.

 

It's the big concern I have with the team we've built. There's a real lack of quality final ball in our team and I do worry we're in for a few frustrating afternoons. Our group of wingers are all high energy and direct but is there much in the way of craft there? Joelinton and Willock both offer a lot as LCMs but neither of them are who you want getting on the ball in the final third and trying to unpick a well organised deep defense.

Agreed. We've double-downed on hard running and force which I guess is what Howe wants but I look at this team and think it lacks quality going forward. At some point, we need to play with all of our most talented forwards because there's a lack of it out there. I also think at points we'll need to tell a couple of the midfielders just to sit in and protect the defence.

 

On 27/08/2023 at 21:25, Viana said:

We have to be a bit careful here. 

 

That's an elite Liverpool squad that just dropped 120m on midfielders. They brought on a 80million striker without blinking. I don't know how often we'll face that kind of quality sitting off us and asking us to break them down. Throw in the fact Allison bailed them out and we fluffed some good half chances. It's a perfect storm of events that contributed to this defeat. 

 

We can still make changed to the midfield so Bruno is slightly further up. If anything I think Howe has geared our transfers so that we have versatility and different options in different positions. We don't have the financial flexibility to buy specialists like James Maddison. 

I agree with this to a point. We've signed "flexible players" but game to game - the team and tactics are largely the same. Barnes has played exclusively at LW. Isak had 15 minutes at LW, Gordon 30 minutes at RW.

 

We have 4 wingers and their profiles are similar. We have a number of CMs - most of them are "overallers".

 

I think we've built a team for a specific tactic. There's no 10.

[Mikky]

4 hours ago, Myleftboot said:

                       Pope

trippier.     Shar.      Botman.      Hall

 

               Tonali.        Bruno

 

gordon.           Isak.              Willock

 

                      Wilson

 

Is what I would like to see. When everyone is match fit.

 

 

 

 

Switch Bruno and Tonali to allow Hall to go further forward 

 

Great thing about that front 4 is that you can still accommodate Big Joe - Anderson - Murphy and. Barnes - it’s so flexible with so many rotation possibilities - even switching Tripps for Tino 

[Gallowgate Toon]

Isak off Wilson could be very exciting but I can't see a formation change yet so I wonder if the answer to our midfield gaps woes lies at full back. Or, at least, partially.

 

When wingers tuck into that 'half space', you either need mids to drop deep or full backs who are confident to step up and inside safe in the knowledge that a winger or the midfield will cover the overlapping runner. Emery's 6 at the back comes to mind but probs not as extreme. Hall feels like a naturally good candidate for this. 

 

With Hall also being a midfielder, you'd think he can step in when we're in possession too. We often go into a diamond on the ball with Bruno ahead of Burn/Botman/Schar but that can be dangerous once Bruno is beaten as the CBs are flat and on the turn. An alternative option is for Hall to step up and play alongside Bruno and we then form more of a box which should give us more options to build play. Still risk but it means there's more cover in the centre of the pitch ahead of the CBs for second balls.

[The Prophet]

 

[AJ9]

For the tactics perverts on here who can watch us and see patterns as opposed to my 90 minute emotional rollercoaster watch…are we doing anything noticeably different this year to last? It kind of feels like we’re less intense in the  press. Is this a fair assessment and are we now pressing in a different way (maybe to manage energy/or for another tactical reason?). Feels like the right hand side still carries the team attacking wise and we lack some of the under lapping runs on the left. 
 

So yeah…what are we seeing so far?

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by AJ9

[relámpago blanco]

53 minutes ago, AJ9 said:

For the tactics perverts on here who can watch us and see patterns as opposed to my 90 minute emotional rollercoaster watch…are we doing anything noticeably different this year to last? It kind of feels like we’re less intense in the  press. Is this a fair assessment and are we now pressing in a different way (maybe to manage energy/or for another tactical reason?). Feels like the right hand side still carries the team attacking wise and we lack some of the under lapping runs on the left. 
 

So yeah…what are we seeing so far?

 

 

 

I think we are lacking intensity,  I think having 2 of Bruno or Tonali in the side is hurting us.  If we are trying to play with a really aggressive press we shouldn't be starting Tonali and Bruno together until Tonali gets the intensity which he will moreso than Bruno.  We are/have been also missing Willock (glad he is back), our game is about energy and intensity which he has in spades and he does exactly what is asked of him.  We do need to start experimenting with the fullbacks though to add more energy.  I think that's the grand plan.  Pace, energy from the fullbacks (Hall and Livramento) which allows us to have Tonali and Bruno in CM.  Convert to 4-2-3-1 because we have more energy and can push from the back.  With pace with the fullbacks we will also be less susceptible to a high press or counter attacks as we'll have pace to recover.

 

Also, I am well aware Tonali didn't start against Brentford but Anderson isn't the answer there.  I'd like to see Miley given some minutes above Anderson but I can understand why Eddie hasn't.

 

 

 

Edit: I also think we should have beaten Liverpool and it was our performance against Brighton that disappointed me, but they just beat Man United by the same scoreline they beat us.  I think we've been fine in the other games apart from yesterday or Brighton but we did not press with the intensity we used to.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by relámpago blanco

[Gallowgate Toon]

1 hour ago, AJ9 said:

For the tactics perverts on here who can watch us and see patterns as opposed to my 90 minute emotional rollercoaster watch…are we doing anything noticeably different this year to last? It kind of feels like we’re less intense in the  press. Is this a fair assessment and are we now pressing in a different way (maybe to manage energy/or for another tactical reason?). Feels like the right hand side still carries the team attacking wise and we lack some of the under lapping runs on the left. 
 

So yeah…what are we seeing so far?

 

 

 

There's a stat out there which tries to reflect pressing which I think is ppda or something. There was a vid before Brentford that we were midtable for this so far this season. Last season, we were 3rd or 4th for it. To be fair, it's a small sample and City & Brighton beat our press very well so it's natural we'd adjust in-game.

 

Feels like where we're lacking most is second balls more than anything if there's a stat for that. Not sure if midfield positioning is the potential reason for this.

 

There's been quite a bit of tinkering in defensive shape. Good article in the athletic about how we've used Tonali differently in each game he's played. Definitely tried to adjust Trippier a bit to presumably avoid Villa-style humpings where they exploit the gap he leaves. His heatmap is still all over but more mixing up of him stepping into mid or just plain old staying back too.