Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[rgk_lfc]

1 hour ago, KaKa said:

 

Most club owners are clearly complete morons then, IMO.

 

Looking at Rafa's record of not only finding great value in the market, but also managing to get the best out of pretty mediocre players, I don't see why you wouldn't afford him the opportunity to just get on with things.

 

He's one of the few that actually can handle that level of control and do well with  it. Just let him bring in his own recruitment people that he wants to work closely with and get out of his way.

 

This is the part I don't like about him. The folks he surrounds himself with, like Owen Brown, aren't exactly the most distinguished scouts. Rafa's record is good, but you can't beat specialized folks running the footballing side of things.  As much as I respect the guy, I don't want to go back to the one person who controls everything model. The way most clubs operate nowadays with Ashworth, Edwards, and their type being in charge of transfers, scouting, and having youth setup independent of the manager makes a lot of sense. 

 

It took us three to four years after he left to wean ourselves of his legacy and move in a different direction, as he practically had control of everything. When Klopp, Howe, or Pep leave, the disruption to other aspects of the club will be minimal. 

[r0cafella]

When I think about Rafa I see two sides. 
 

The first side is the undeniable ability to get a lot of out of a little, this is something he’s down time and time again. 
 

the other side is the unrelenting ambition he has, he will make something out of nothing but the cost will be the ambition he has needs to be realised so he will require resources and control as he’s a born winner. 
 

Unfortunately for Rafa they day of the “manager” is over and he will always be unlikely to get it all his own way nowadays. The cost of giving him control as Rgk has said is the lack of succession planning his system creates. 

[KaKa]

7 minutes ago, rgk_lfc said:

 

This is the part I don't like about him. The folks he surrounds himself with, like Owen Brown, aren't exactly the most distinguished scouts. Rafa's record is good, but you can't beat specialized folks running the footballing side of things.  As much as I respect the guy, I don't want to go back to the one person who controls everything model. The way most clubs operate nowadays with Ashworth, Edwards, and their type being in charge of transfers, scouting, and having youth setup independent of the manager makes a lot of sense. 

 

It took us three to four years after he left to wean ourselves of his legacy and move in a different direction, as he practically had control of everything. When Klopp, Howe, or Pep leave, the disruption to other aspects of the club will be minimal. 

 

It's a fair point. Especially for clubs that know what they're doing as far as actually putting together a viable setup.

 

However, I think there are a lot of clubs that could benefit from a manager like Rafa still. West Ham and Leicester don't seem to have that kind of setup but have spent a decent amount of money, which Rafa would have done much better with in those circumstances IMO.

 

 

[r0cafella]

39 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

It's a fair point. Especially for clubs that know what they're doing as far as actually putting together a viable setup.

 

However, I think there are a lot of clubs that could benefit from a manager like Rafa still. West Ham and Leicester don't seem to have that kind of setup but have spent a decent amount of money, which Rafa would have done much better with in those circumstances IMO.

 

 

Any team can benefit from Rafa but the trade offs also have to be considered. 

[kingxlnc]

1 hour ago, KaKa said:

 

It's a fair point. Especially for clubs that know what they're doing as far as actually putting together a viable setup.

 

However, I think there are a lot of clubs that could benefit from a manager like Rafa still. West Ham and Leicester don't seem to have that kind of setup but have spent a decent amount of money, which Rafa would have done much better with in those circumstances IMO.

 

 

Yes definitely a West Ham, they've let old skool Moyes have a heck of a lot of control - Rafa would be doing way better with the kind of players they have. 

 

This is why I previously mentioned Forest as a good fit - a city who would appreciate him and a big club trying to get back to glory days, decent players but need a system to be moulded. They love Cooper though so it may be a tough act to follow. We loved him as we had Pardew, Carver, McClaren so we could recognise greatness. But if your previous manager is popular (e.g. Everton) then it's a tough one. 

 

Sad to see his reputation in tatters though as it's clear he is a great man and manager. Poor choice of jobs has come back to haunt him. Him and Mourinho were very similar as managers, but Mourniho has insisted on only top clubs who can have a chance of silverware. It's kept him relatively undamaged. 

[KaKa]

3 minutes ago, kingxlnc said:

Yes definitely a West Ham, they've let old skool Moyes have a heck of a lot of control - Rafa would be doing way better with the kind of players they have. 

 

This is why I previously mentioned Forest as a good fit - a city who would appreciate him and a big club trying to get back to glory days, decent players but need a system to be moulded. They love Cooper though so it may be a tough act to follow. We loved him as we had Pardew, Carver, McClaren so we could recognise greatness. But if your previous manager is popular (e.g. Everton) then it's a tough one. 

 

Sad to see his reputation in tatters though as it's clear he is a great man and manager. Poor choice of jobs has come back to haunt him. Him and Mourinho were very similar as managers, but Mourniho has insisted on only top clubs who can have a chance of silverware. It's kept him relatively undamaged. 

 

100% agree with you.

 

Weirdly enough I've always respected Rafa's willingness to take even the jobs that weren't at top clubs, I think it's a sign of how much belief he has in his ability. However, he has proved to be really unfortunate due to us having a lunatic in Mike Ashley when he was here, and then the decision to go to Everton despite the uproar was just a terrible move.

[Guest]

Speaking of Rafa, had no idea Rondon had joined River Plate until I searched him there.

[cubaricho]

3 hours ago, KaKa said:

 

Most club owners are clearly complete morons then, IMO.

 

Looking at Rafa's record of not only finding great value in the market, but also managing to get the best out of pretty mediocre players, I don't see why you wouldn't afford him the opportunity to just get on with things.

 

He's one of the few that actually can handle that level of control and do well with  it. Just let him bring in his own recruitment people that he wants to work closely with and get out of his way.

This just isn’t how it’s done anymore at the top level, unfortunately. Rafa has moved into dinosaur territory because he didn’t adapt. 
 

I hope he can find something again though. He’s one of my all time favorite Newcastle managers and gave me hope when nothing else could. 

[Darth Crooks]

I still close my eyes - see him putting those glasses post win into his top pocket and dreaming of that pocket as my sphincter.

 

[KaKa]

38 minutes ago, cubaricho said:

This just isn’t how it’s done anymore at the top level, unfortunately. Rafa has moved into dinosaur territory because he didn’t adapt. 
 

I hope he can find something again though. He’s one of my all time favorite Newcastle managers and gave me hope when nothing else could. 

 

Having a DOF structure doesn't guarantee anything man. A lot of clubs are just jumping on the bandwagon and still making a mess of things. Everton have  blown a bunch of money on terrible signings and the wrong managers using the structure.

 

There are still a few managers that I would have with greater responsibilities ahead of some of the clowns being given these DOF positions.

[Gaztoon]

Didn't he also introduce the club to staveley and Co.. or did I just make that up ?

[Gawalls]

2 hours ago, rgk_lfc said:

 

This is the part I don't like about him. The folks he surrounds himself with, like Owen Brown, aren't exactly the most distinguished scouts. Rafa's record is good, but you can't beat specialized folks running the footballing side of things.  As much as I respect the guy, I don't want to go back to the one person who controls everything model. The way most clubs operate nowadays with Ashworth, Edwards, and their type being in charge of transfers, scouting, and having youth setup independent of the manager makes a lot of sense. 

 

It took us three to four years after he left to wean ourselves of his legacy and move in a different direction, as he practically had control of everything. When Klopp, Howe, or Pep leave, the disruption to other aspects of the club will be minimal. 

Brighton are a classic example of this - they lost potter and ashworth and haven’t even missed them.

[Gawalls]

1 hour ago, cubaricho said:

This just isn’t how it’s done anymore at the top level, unfortunately. Rafa has moved into dinosaur territory because he didn’t adapt. 
 

I hope he can find something again though. He’s one of my all time favorite Newcastle managers and gave me hope when nothing else could. 

One of your all time favourite managers - higher than keegan and robson?

[Ste]

I don’t understand why him moving to China is used against him when he was desperate to stay here, he just expected the club to be ran like a football club. The club had planned in 2015 to improve the training ground and become the first pro club to have carbon neutral training facilities in the world. By the time Rafa left, they had created a room to encourage players to stay longer at training and bond, and stuck a picture of St James behind Rafas desk. The club had decided to shelf the plans for the training ground and focus the money on the first team. We made a profit on player trading in the time Rafa was here. 
 

Rafa wanted the facilities to be in line with at least Bournemouth. The club let him down. He wanted control over a project the club would have been able to afford easily if we had maximised the potential of the club instead of prioritising Sports Direct advertising and poorly paid shirt sponsors. 
 

He was defensive purely because the squad was poor. When improvements were gradually made, we opened up and played good football. Rafa had compendiums of transfer targets, how many pages do you think you had to turn before you landed on Lazaars name, Sels, Mutos.. 

 

Rafa worked wonders here. I don’t blame him for leaving, I don’t blame him for moving to China, I blame Ashley for using the club as a vehicle for his Sports Direct stores and for placing men in charge of the financials who cared even less about football than him. 
 

We’re so early into our new owners time here, and other than certain sponsorships, they’ve done nothing yet that Ashley couldn’t have done if he hadn’t let our deals fall far behind the clubs we were level with when he bought us. For 14 years of his time here, this club just needed people in charge with the right ideas and a gentle push in the right direction, which is what Staveley and co have done. 

[St. Maximin]

He did a great job here. Find it hard to see why some of our fans would disagree if they were following us closely and seeing the bigger picture. 
 

Doesn’t mean it should always work out for him, or any failure is never his own fault. Whatever you say about Everton’s toxic environment, he hardly helped himself. 
 

Also clearly it’s very open at the bottom, but I wouldn’t be overly confident he’d keep them up as he didn’t in his first season here and typically needs time to let his methods work, if they do. 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by St. Maximin

[Chris_R]

2 hours ago, rgk_lfc said:

 

This is the part I don't like about him. The folks he surrounds himself with, like Owen Brown, aren't exactly the most distinguished scouts. Rafa's record is good, but you can't beat specialized folks running the footballing side of things.  As much as I respect the guy, I don't want to go back to the one person who controls everything model. The way most clubs operate nowadays with Ashworth, Edwards, and their type being in charge of transfers, scouting, and having youth setup independent of the manager makes a lot of sense. 

 

It took us three to four years after he left to wean ourselves of his legacy and move in a different direction, as he practically had control of everything. When Klopp, Howe, or Pep leave, the disruption to other aspects of the club will be minimal. 

 

I don't entirely disagree with your overall point, but regarding the bolded bit, was it because Rafa had control of everything? Or was it because we had Ashley and Bruce, and there was no desire to do anything other than tread water for the minimum possible cost?

 

6 minutes ago, Gawalls said:

Brighton are a classic example of this - they lost potter and ashworth and haven’t even missed them.

 

De Zerbi is doing great, but I think it's way too early to say they haven't missed Potter or Ashworth.

 

Bruce bumbled along fine using Rafa's players and coaching for the first year, it only unravelled after that. Lots of people, especially his mates in the press, were trumpeting the exact "Look, he's doing as well as Rafa, Newcastle aren't missing him at all" message for quite a while until he managed to get his "methods" into the players and everything unravelled. Not suggesting the same will happen with De Zerbi, as he actually does seem good and like a competent coach, I'm just saying you can't really say yet. Same regarding Ashworth - Brighton will be working through Ashworth-initiated transfers for a window or so yet, it's only once that pipeline empties and they have to fill it with new players from the new team that you can really judge it. Again, it may be absolutely fine, but it'll take quite a while to establish that for certain.

[Gawalls]

3 minutes ago, Chris_R said:

 

I don't entirely disagree with your overall point, but regarding the bolded bit, was it because Rafa had control of everything? Or was it because we had Ashley and Bruce, and there was no desire to do anything other than tread water for the minimum possible cost?

 

 

De Zerbi is doing great, but I think it's way too early to say they haven't missed Potter or Ashworth.

 

Bruce bumbled along fine using Rafa's players and coaching for the first year, it only unravelled after that. Lots of people, especially his mates in the press, were trumpeting the exact "Look, he's doing as well as Rafa, Newcastle aren't missing him at all" message for quite a while until he managed to get his "methods" into the players and everything unravelled. Not suggesting the same will happen with De Zerbi, as he actually does seem good and like a competent coach, I'm just saying you can't really say yet. Same regarding Ashworth - Brighton will be working through Ashworth-initiated transfers for a window or so yet, it's only once that pipeline empties and they have to fill it with new players from the new team that you can really judge it. Again, it may be absolutely fine, but it'll take quite a while to establish that for certain.

You’re right time will tell but from the outside looking in it seems Brighton have designed a setup to have no single point of failure the best they can and I believe they’ll be fine.

[magvicar]

12 hours ago, Stifler said:

This is Simon Jordon levels or rewriting of his time/ending at us.

He was out of contract, he had been fucked about under Ashley time and time again and had no faith in him being backed again. As it happens Ashley backed Bruce the summer he left to counter balance how shit Bruce would be and to hope that sheer quality of 2 players which he took backhanders on would counterbalance Bruce’s shitness and lift us above Rafa’s finishes. Even considering that, Bruce only managed to finish as high as he did and not get is relegated because we played 1 and half seasons behind closed doors, and in one of those season most clubs couldn’t have given a fuck and were running the games out.

It is no coincidence that as soon as fans were allowed back, Bruce was taking us down.

 

As for not enjoying the football when he was here. I hear that all the time from the those who never liked him, they forget that fact that our previous managers who allegedly played more attacking football fucked us. Pardew after his usual good start had us fighting relegation for 2-3 years. Carver took us from mid table security in January, to a final day relegation showdown with Hull fucking City.

McClaren finished the relegation job Carver and Pardew couldn’t finish.

Whilst you lot were complaining about Rafa’s inability to be attacking front footed, Conte won Chelsea a title, and Mourinho got one of Man Utd’s shittest ever sides since they were relegated in the 70’s a 2nd place finish playing in a similar way Rafa’s pragmatic approach.

 

 

 

As I mentioned earlier in the posting, I enjoyed some of his time but his football became tedious and with all the other stuff that went on I simply went off him.

As for other managers, I agree some have been abysmal but some didn't start off as abysmal. They actually started off decent.

Pardew included.

Carver was an abomination.

Bruce actually did ok to start with but lost the plot.

 

Rafa did the same thing as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 

[magvicar]

4 hours ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

Did that happiness increase or decrease once Steve Bruce was appointed?

Increased to start with but then again Bruce wasn't my ideal appointment yet came in and gave it a go for a while and did ok at first.

After that we all know what happened. He basically lost the plot.

 

 

[magvicar]

4 hours ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

 

He had a net spend of minus £11m you absolute weapon 

Any idea how much he had to spend including what he took in from transfers since he came?

[Danh1]

2 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Increased to start with but then again Bruce wasn't my ideal appointment yet came in and gave it a go for a while and did ok at first.

After that we all know what happened. He basically lost the plot.

 

 

Would you not say that Bruce benefited from having a squad that had been coached by Benitez for 3 years? Once everything Rafa had installed wore off, that’s when Bruce struggled massively imo.

[jackyboy]

I just loved it when he put his glasses back into his top pocket after the match. An absolute gentleman 

[Danh1]

One thing I’d say about Benitez is that when a “big game” came round, we’d never falter. The Championship season we had Brighton away on the Tuesday, Huddersfield away on the Saturday and either Reading or Norwich away the following Tuesday. 
 

We beat Brighton and Huddersfield (tactical masterclass down there) and drew the other. Class.

[Kid Icarus]

15 minutes ago, magvicar said:

As I mentioned earlier in the posting, I enjoyed some of his time but his football became tedious and with all the other stuff that went on I simply went off him.

As for other managers, I agree some have been abysmal but some didn't start off as abysmal. They actually started off decent.

Pardew included.

Carver was an abomination.

Bruce actually did ok to start with but lost the plot.

 

Rafa did the same thing as far as I'm concerned.

With all due respect, I think anyone who's seen your working out can understand how you might get to that conclusion like, but both the working out and the conclusion are deranged imo. 

[TheBrownBottle]

3 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Increased to start with but then again Bruce wasn't my ideal appointment yet came in and gave it a go for a while and did ok at first.

After that we all know what happened. He basically lost the plot.

 

 

You've lost me now - I'm generally ok with folks not enjoying the football Benitez played etc, but defending Bruce is a line no-one should cross .  'Bruce's team did ok for bit and then everything dropped' - this directly refutes your point.  It took the team time to drop away from what Benitez had drilled into them.  Bruce actively made them worse - a point further proved by the number of players whose NUFC careers Howe has saved since.