ponsaelius Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 (edited) People thinking we will be getting £10-15 million for Lascelles with a year left on his deal are having a bubble. Again I make the point that Coady went for less at the same age despite being a far better player with 10 England caps who's been a 38 game a season player for years. And that was sold to a very narrow market of a promotion chasing Champ club with PL parachute payments. Honestly if we could get these kind of fees for these players they'd already be gone. The market just isn't there. PL clubs are far cuter. We were desperately lucky that there happened to be one exception to that rule in Forest - but even then we only got a nominal transfer fee for Shelvey because of his wages. Edited July 16, 2023 by ponsaelius Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 2 minutes ago, Eveready said: Can understand it to some extent due to things like Carroll leaving but I also can't understand how someone can really enjoy football without having any affection or loyalty towards the players you watch week in week out. xA is based on the xG of the shot taker, which is absolutely a statistically solid metric. Yeah, I definitely have an affection for players - but loyalty would suggest not wanting them to leave, whereas it’s just part of the game for me. The club selling any player is unlikely to get me radged up - especially these days. I don’t get the impression that Howe is keen on the lad, he’ll bring in a good fee - so if he’s sold, then that’s ok by me. I don’t like seeing the club sell a player over the manager’s head, but other than that I’m happy for them to have free rein on this stuff. Especially when they’re as qualified and talented as Howe and Ashworth are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack27 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 2 minutes ago, ponsaelius said: People thinking we will be getting £10-15 million for Lascelles with a year left on his deal are having a bubble. Again I make the point that Coady went for less at the same age despite being a far better player with 10 England caps who's been a 38 game a season player for years. And that was sold to a very narrow market of a promotion chasing Champ club with PL parachute payments. Honestly if we could get these kind of fees for these players they'd already be gone. The market just isn't there. PL clubs are far cuter. We were desperately lucky that there happened to be one exception to that rule in Forest - but even then we only got a nominal transfer fee for Shelvey because of his wages. BuT hE’s A lEaDeR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ponsaelius said: People thinking we will be getting £10-15 million for Lascelles with a year left on his deal are having a bubble. Again I make the point that Coady went for less at the same age despite being a far better player with 10 England caps who's been a 38 game a season player for years. And that was sold to a very narrow market of a promotion chasing Champ club with PL parachute payments. Honestly if we could get these kind of fees for these players they'd already be gone. The market just isn't there. PL clubs are far cuter. We were desperately lucky that there happened to be one exception to that rule in Forest - but even then we only got a nominal transfer fee for Shelvey because of his wages. Yeah, fair enough - and I forgot he only had a year left. But of the list mentioned, Lascelles is the only one I think would even command a fee Edited July 16, 2023 by TheBrownBottle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Forest are considering selling their prized asset to another middling PL club because they got themselves into such a hole with FFP last year. Other PL clubs aren't that daft anymore, they know they have to buy young and with cheaper wages, they have a whole world to scout players from. In the past we might have had some luck flogging to Championship clubs. These days we can't even get Champ clubs to take them on loan with us paying most of their wages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdm Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 11 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: As for ‘xA’ and all that stuff, it just doesn’t register for me. Not getting ‘assists’ isn’t just about other players missing the chance - if he’s putting the ball in the same place every time, and every time nothing comes of it, that’s not smart play. What? If he puts the ball in 6 yard box 4 times, Wilson puts one over, keeper makes a great save and say Almiron hits one wide or at the keeper then finally Wilson puts one in. How is that a) his fault and b) not smart play when he’s created 4 clear chances Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Just now, gdm said: What? If he puts the ball in 6 yard box 4 times, Wilson puts one over, keeper makes a great save and say Almiron hits one wide or at the keeper then finally Wilson puts one in. How is that a) his fault and b) not smart play when he’s created 4 clear chances Because the ‘data’ is a load of bollocks in my view. ’Chances created’ is heavily qualitative. And I watched every game last season - ASM wasn’t putting them on cue only for our forwards to miss constantly. The constant, regular misses came mainly from Trippier dead balls. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
80 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 4 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: As for ‘xA’ and all that stuff, it just doesn’t register for me. Not getting ‘assists’ isn’t just about other players missing the chance - if he’s putting the ball in the same place every time, and every time nothing comes of it, that’s not smart play. On a similar note, while I agree he often sets up chances that don't get finished, I wonder if that partly relates to his erratic style of play. xA won't easily take account of those intangibles. Once again, we saw a player eyeroll about him being unpredictable when they were meant to be complimenting him - this time Anderson after the Gateshead match. Could it be that his style is just too surprising for our other players to mesh with and comfortably convert? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Just now, 80 said: On a similar note, while I agree he often sets up chances that don't get finished, I wonder if that partly relates to his erratic style of play. xA won't easily take account of those intangibles. Once again, we saw a player eyeroll about him being unpredictable when they were meant to be complimenting him - this time Anderson after the Gateshead match. Could it be that his style is just too surprising for our other players to mesh with and comfortably convert? 100%. I think they do struggle to anticipate it. And what top footballers do is understand that and adapt to their teammates - even if they aren’t as good as they are. Bruno is the player in our current side who does exactly that - he makes players who are nowhere near his level look like they’re close to it. Beardsley was the master of doing this. ASM, unfortunately, doesn’t. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdm Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 4 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: Because the ‘data’ is a load of bollocks in my view. ’Chances created’ is heavily qualitative. And I watched every game last season - ASM wasn’t putting them on cue only for our forwards to miss constantly. The constant, regular misses came mainly from Trippier dead balls. Maybe not last season as he missed a fair chunk and then tried to adapt his game for how EH wanted him to But the seasons under Bruce it was absolutely the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawalls Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 9 minutes ago, gdm said: What? If he puts the ball in 6 yard box 4 times, Wilson puts one over, keeper makes a great save and say Almiron hits one wide or at the keeper then finally Wilson puts one in. How is that a) his fault and b) not smart play when he’s created 4 clear chances That’s a lot of gymnastics. Again barnes registered 13 goals with no what ifs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 23 minutes ago, mighty__mag said: Don't be daft. Look at the state of Forest last season, they'd literally pay anything for anyone, and the mad thing is,it actually payed off, they achieved their goal. For a side to be mad enough to pay Lingard 200k then offload, i think anything can happen now until September. You'd have to give away Darlow, Fraser and Lewis for nowt. I agree Lascelles would go for £5-10m. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketsbaia Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Would be gutted to see ASM go but I guess it's felt inevitable for a while. He's the only player of value (away from the big 3 or 4) and we'll barely reach £1m for the other guys we want to offload. I like Barnes but he's a downgrade from ASM and now we're without any flair. Maybe if we gain £15m from these, it can be justified should it fund a LB/RW/CB. But oh man, end of an era. If true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdm Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 8 minutes ago, Gawalls said: That’s a lot of gymnastics. Again barnes registered 13 goals with no what ifs. what? I was clearly replying to the brown bottle about his specific point. It’s not what ifs or anything to do with Barnes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfcastle Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 As long as the club is going in the right direction its just one of those things. Not a Beardsley/Gazza/Waddle scenario. David Kelly was my favourite player, Barry Venison was our player of the year and we sold them but the trust in the manager/club superceded any wrench. Even years later with Woodgate, the best defender most of us had ever seen and we weren't going places at the time but the business improved the club (given he was a perma-crock) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nufc123 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 13 minutes ago, Ketsbaia said: I like Barnes but he's a downgrade from ASM How would he be a downgrade? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 I totally understand supporters feeling bad about saying goodbye to favourite players mind (and ASM is still an NUFC player). Especially younger supporters for whom ASM is one of a few bright spots over the previous few years. For me, it’s what I experienced in seeing Keegan ruthlessly sell Micky Quinn and then David Kelly - my no. 9 heroes as a kid - and Gavin Peacock. I couldn’t believe we would get promoted and sell off our best forwards (NB Quinn went early in the promotion season, and of course Cole signed towards the end). Watching Cole and Beardsley the year after was a valuable learning exercise, mind, re the value of ruthlessness in football. Keegan - for all the nice guy charisma - had it. So in my reckoning has Howe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy84 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 I think our fan base have a romantic idea when it comes to Maxi. Because of the type of player he is, we’re conditioned to resisting him going out of the door because we’ve been starved of quality for years. It always seems to be “he’ll be great next season” or “if he stays fit he’ll be class”. Fact is he can’t stay fit and I think we’re a better a side without him, he produces moments of quality no doubt but we’ve outgrown him imo. Just my opinion of course, I love him as a player still but it’s obvious to see that if a sale needs to take place it’s him Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdm Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 I’m sure if we brought in an elite player to replace him, the standard of isak, bruno, tonali then most people would be on board with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 1 minute ago, gdm said: I’m sure if we brought in an elite player to replace him, the standard of isak, bruno, tonali then most people would be on board with it. In the example I mentioned above, we replaced Micky Quinn - who went straight on to score shitloads that year in the PL for Coventry - with an Arsenal reject from Bristol City. Cole did ok. For what it’s worth, I think Barnes is a better PL footballer than ASM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 When you're an average team, Maxi is ideal because it's someone you can cling to and enjoy the magic in amongst the dross. We're not that club anymore. Give me a 10+ goal a season replacement any day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Got to love the argument that data doesn't mean all that much and then basing the absolute entirety of your argument on goals and assists with no regard for anything else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Hypothetically, let’s say the medical team have told Howe that his injury issues are likely to be chronic (this is very possible IMO), and we have a chunky offer on the table, would anyone really not sell? If he has another injury hit season then his value won’t be much. You have to know when to sell sometimes, even with talented players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said: Got to love the argument that data doesn't mean all that much and then basing the absolute entirety of your argument on goals and assists with no regard for anything else. There's also buying into how Howe wants to play and being physically capable of that. I know he tried but I don't think he'll enjoy it. Get himself to Saudi or someone like Palace where he can do what Zaha does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Barnes has been slated by Leicester fans for being lazy so not sure he naturally buys into the way Howe wants to play I'd be gutted if Maxi goes but there seems to be a lot of noise about it I do feel it's almost inevitable Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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