FloydianMag Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 1 minute ago, r0cafella said: And btw, if I’m off the mark please do let me know? Maybe I’m wrong and we can compete with 7th highest budget for major honours? Or maybe I’m being pessimistic and we can bridge that 400m revenue gap to city? I’d genuinely love to know how we get there. Challenge FMV at least at a Competition Appeals Tribunal, it really is the only way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Just now, FloydianMag said: Challenge FMV at least at a Competition Appeals Tribunal, it really is the only way. This is the only way I see as well, but I don’t see us doing it someone else might sure, but in reality I don’t think they will. Most likely candidates are forest and Villa imo. it won’t be us, and it won’t be city. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloydianMag Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 1 minute ago, r0cafella said: This is the only way I see as well, but I don’t see us doing it someone else might sure, but in reality I don’t think they will. Most likely candidates are forest and Villa imo. it won’t be us, and it won’t be city. I wouldn’t be to sure, litigation doesn’t bother PIF, LIV Golf tells you that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 1 minute ago, FloydianMag said: I wouldn’t be to sure, litigation doesn’t bother PIF, LIV Golf tells you that. I can see why your drawing the parallel but I think they cases are different, the PGA/LIV GOLF is more the equivalent of them buying the whole premier league, to be very frank, the league doesn’t need us or the PIF yet we need the league. Also, all indications so far are we are going to abide by the rules as the club have stated a million times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegans Export Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 7 hours ago, r0cafella said: Obviously all of these rules are being implemented with the sole aim of getting PIF out and making them sell and I think they might just work. We are either a legit investment for them or a sports washing vehicle it’s one or the other. If we are the investment then it’s very difficult to grow an investment if you’re prohibited from investing (this is the case with football, owners are extremely limited into what they can invest). The prior capital infusions give us that boost but we are now knocking on the glass ceiling, and not to disparage anyone this post is objective in nature but why would any investor think they could break the ceiling given the restrictions? We don’t have a good youth set up (of course it’s improving now but it’s a very long term thing) our stadium and training facilities are behind the curve and we are totally hampered financially. Now if they view us as a sports washing vehicle I’d argue the key tenet of that would be success, and it’s the same issues we face as above we can’t be successful (win things) because we can’t compete on equal terms, we can’t compete on equal terms because the rules forbid it. So basically, if your PIF why are you bothering with this? You can get better returns elsewhere. TLDR imo it doesn’t make much sense for PIF to continue to hold us in the current market conditions. If we are a legitimate investment then we don't have to catch Man City for the value of the club to increase long-term. It'll be interesting to see what we do with the stadium. I can't see any way we can stay at SJP and renovate to the point that we have a world-class stadium. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Keegans Export said: If we are a legitimate investment then we don't have to catch Man City for the value of the club to increase long-term. It'll be interesting to see what we do with the stadium. I can't see any way we can stay at SJP and renovate to the point that we have a world-class stadium. You are absolutely right we don’t, but then it makes what we were told a lie. And even then, if they want the club to be increase in value it will need to have a modicum of success, if not other clubs may look like better deals. and I echo your sentiment on the stadium, but it seems staying at Sjp is the majorities favourite option so in that regard you can say we are holding ourselves back. Edited March 6 by r0cafella Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manorpark Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 8 hours ago, r0cafella said: I love the optimism, but let’s be real here. There is no (what you call) 'optimism' in my post at all !!! There is a huge tendency amongst some people to only think "the way things are now" is basically the way things will always be. THAT completely limits what can happen, in peoples minds. With the right people involved, and we have the right people involved, how things are now can soon become a relic of a long forgotten past. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 6 minutes ago, manorpark said: There is no (what you call) 'optimism' in my post at all !!! There is a huge tendency amongst some people to only think "the way things are now" is basically the way things will always be. THAT completely limits what can happen, in peoples minds. With the right people involved, and we have the right people involved, how things are now can soon become a relic of a long forgotten past. It’s full on cope tbh, and I don’t mean it disrespectfully either. As requested, if you can provide something concrete to disprove what I’m saying is genuinely love to hear it. Your argument above is basically don’t let your mind limit what you believe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abacus Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 8 hours ago, r0cafella said: I love the optimism, but let’s be real here. With all of the restrictions that have been put in place we will not be overtaking Man city, we leagues apart and any opportunity to catch up is being taken away I’ve been saying for sometime FFP will only get more restrictive and it does appear to be trending that way. It’s any I made my rather gloomy post, the market they bought into is already quite different. To be honest, I've been thinking along similar lines. Having had to fight tooth and nail for so long to even get the club, and then, when finally let in being completely prevented from doing what they'd hoped to do, it's either another long battle or stepping away. Hope it's the former, if only to give them time to get the infrastructure right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
et tu brute Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 5 hours ago, r0cafella said: He can state what he wants, it doesn’t really impact upon what I’ve posted. Unless he’s prepared to either break the rules or change them, neither of which look imminent. And again?what voices are discontenting? Last I checked the league had passed more stringent measures ultimately everyone can chip in with a voice but if they aren’t shareholders in the league they don’t actually get a real say and I’ve outlined a few times previously why the status quo is great for 80% of the league. to be successful, you need a path and I just don’t see our path to success, we might be able to compete for European spots but challenging for the league and being up there with the so called elite? I just don’t see how we can achieve it with the artificial constraints we are under. I'll listen to the chairman before you with all respect. He will know exactly the constraints in place and how the club will move forward to get to the level required. You're not going to get to the necessary revenue levels in two years. We have already increased revenue levels year on year by over 30% since the takeover. This will continue. As for the disconcerting voices, you must have your head buried in the sand if you've not seen a number of clubs and media voicing issues over the last few weeks. I don't agree with you, but only time will tell what happens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 9 hours ago, manorpark said: My understanding of the character and culture of PIF is very different to that. They want to win, they are very intelligent and powerful and they 'intend' to win. Whatever it takes - 'no more mister nice guy' or whatever - they will win through. I suspect they already see the EPL and the Cartel as an enemy, and what are enemies for? To be BEATEN, that is what they are for! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 1 hour ago, Abacus said: To be honest, I've been thinking along similar lines. Having had to fight tooth and nail for so long to even get the club, and then, when finally let in being completely prevented from doing what they'd hoped to do, it's either another long battle or stepping away. Hope it's the former, if only to give them time to get the infrastructure right. To be honest I doubt they were that involved in the battle to get the club. Amanda will have been doing the hard running, it will have been a bit of background noise to PIF until the point it got close Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 40 minutes ago, Colos Short and Curlies said: To be honest I doubt they were that involved in the battle to get the club. Amanda will have been doing the hard running, it will have been a bit of background noise to PIF until the point it got close From what you’ve seen how much of a FFP hole are we in? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 11 minutes ago, r0cafella said: From what you’ve seen how much of a FFP hole are we in? I think we've danced around the drain this year. If we take the Swiss Ramble figures as a reference point then we can deduct around £10m of costs from the published accounts to get to the FFP profit/loss, it seems like we need to make a FFP profit of £15m this season (again using the SR figures as the actual values aren't published) so that's a break even / £5m profit position needed in the accounts. Starting at a loss of £70m (ish) we're increasing our amortisation by £20m (5 years of Tonali, Barnes and Livramento) but have roughly the same profit from selling Maxi and will have some of the amortisation value from last year fall off. We're then left with needing an increase in TV money, prize money and sponsorship to total around £65m more than 2022/2023. Champions league is worth around £20m and Sela £25m. So I think we'll be OK this year, but getting 5th or 6th and a cup final would help to reduce the loss from finishing 4th and the Carabao final. This is also the worst season for us if we bat smartly as we should be increasing our income and the pool of players who have a sales value to move forward. It is a bit of guess work though as we don't have the full breakdowns on what goes into the FFP calcs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 16 minutes ago, Colos Short and Curlies said: I think we've danced around the drain this year. If we take the Swiss Ramble figures as a reference point then we can deduct around £10m of costs from the published accounts to get to the FFP profit/loss, it seems like we need to make a FFP profit of £15m this season (again using the SR figures as the actual values aren't published) so that's a break even / £5m profit position needed in the accounts. Starting at a loss of £70m (ish) we're increasing our amortisation by £20m (5 years of Tonali, Barnes and Livramento) but have roughly the same profit from selling Maxi and will have some of the amortisation value from last year fall off. We're then left with needing an increase in TV money, prize money and sponsorship to total around £65m more than 2022/2023. Champions league is worth around £20m and Sela £25m. So I think we'll be OK this year, but getting 5th or 6th and a cup final would help to reduce the loss from finishing 4th and the Carabao final. This is also the worst season for us if we bat smartly as we should be increasing our income and the pool of players who have a sales value to move forward. It is a bit of guess work though as we don't have the full breakdowns on what goes into the FFP calcs Love it thanks for sharing. So given the above, what would you expect to see happen in the summer in terms of sales and purchase? What kind of net spend would you project given the very limited information at hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Jinx Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 I think they’re still learning on the job with this one but ultimately I think their end goal would be to own the Premier League in the same way they have a stake in other various sports. Probing for weaknesses is probably the name of the game currently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Just now, Dr Jinx said: I think they’re still learning on the job with this one but ultimately I think their end goal would be to own the Premier League in the same way they have a stake in other various sports. Probing for weaknesses is probably the name of the game currently. They can’t own the league though, well they can be in order to do so they would have to own all of the clubs in the league and that just isn’t going to happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Jinx Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 1 minute ago, r0cafella said: They can’t own the league though, well they can be in order to do so they would have to own all of the clubs in the league and that just isn’t going to happen. No I think they’ll propose a breakaway league in the same way they did LIV golf.. something like that.. but not until they are cosy with the FA and other leagues. Ultimately after a power struggle, the PL will back down and merge giving PIF the seat at the table and a bit of a rebrand. It’s worth more to them than having a single club dominating. Don’t get me wrong, they won’t drop us like a stone.. we’ll be left in very good shape whenever they sell us and whoever they sell to won’t be a bunch of chancers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Reading in The Times today that the PL are looking to bring in tighter rules against sponsorships and transfer deals with associated clubs. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/premier-league-clubs-face-sanctions-for-inflating-sponsorship-deals-htzdwctnl Looks like the cartel clubs are looking to lock in their supremacy forever, and the PL will support their bid. I really don't see how PIF can hope to compete any time soon unless they are prepared to go to court under restriction of trade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 2 minutes ago, Dr Jinx said: No I think they’ll propose a breakaway league in the same way they did LIV golf.. something like that.. but not until they are cosy with the FA and other leagues. Ultimately after a power struggle, the PL will back down and merge giving PIF the seat at the table and a bit of a rebrand. It’s worth more to them than having a single club dominating. Don’t get me wrong, they won’t drop us like a stone.. we’ll be left in very good shape whenever they sell us and whoever they sell to won’t be a bunch of chancers. This also isn’t going to happen, the super league is dead in this country, the fan revolt from a breakaway of the premier league would make the super league one look like a toddlers tantrum before nap time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stifler Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 43 minutes ago, r0cafella said: This also isn’t going to happen, the super league is dead in this country, the fan revolt from a breakaway of the premier league would make the super league one look like a toddlers tantrum before nap time. I disagree. Not one of those clubs would have thought that it would go down well, the only surprise is that it was Man Utd fans out of all them who made the biggest uproar against it. They all knew how it would play out, but they planted the seed, and now they already have Liverpool fans, and to a lesser extent Arsenal fans screaming for it to happen. It will come back, and with the likes of Everton, Villa, and us all being fucked off by the changing of the rules to keep us down, amongst teams like Palace who have just realised that they can’t build their new stand, they just might have a few more owners and possibly fans who are receptive of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paully Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-rivals-blocking-saudi-32284487 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 4 minutes ago, Stifler said: I disagree. Not one of those clubs would have thought that it would go down well, the only surprise is that it was Man Utd fans out of all them who made the biggest uproar against it. They all knew how it would play out, but they planted the seed, and now they already have Liverpool fans, and to a lesser extent Arsenal fans screaming for it to happen. It will come back, and with the likes of Everton, Villa, and us all being fucked off by the changing of the rules to keep us down, amongst teams like Palace who have just realised that they can’t build their new stand, they just might have a few more owners and possibly fans who are receptive of it. Stif man, reality check nobody is going to watch a league featuring us Villa and Everton. Of all the scenarios people come a breakaway domestic league is the most fanciful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stifler Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 10 minutes ago, r0cafella said: Stif man, reality check nobody is going to watch a league featuring us Villa and Everton. Of all the scenarios people come a breakaway domestic league is the most fanciful. I mean they already do, but my point is that not only would they have the Sky 6 clubs willing to crossover, but potentially more clubs outside of them as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 17 minutes ago, Paully said: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-rivals-blocking-saudi-32284487 There's a whiff of a journalist being briefed in that story Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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