The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[Froggy]

36 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

Barely even watch football any more

 

Isn't really a choice for a lot of people. I'd struggle to go on without it.

[leffe186]

1 hour ago, Froggy said:

 

Isn't really a choice for a lot of people. I'd struggle to go on without it.

That’s why God made the NFL

[Kid Icarus]

2 hours ago, leffe186 said:

Bravo. Although I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, we’re not all hypocrites. I’ve been done with this whole thing for a while now, and it sounds like Triggs is too.

 

You really do have a choice. Of course I’ll always be a Spurs fan at heart and when I look at the scores I’ll be happy when we win and sad when we lose, but I’m out for the most part. Barely even watch football any more. My heart’s broken.

 

Not trying to be holier-than-thou, honestly, just it seems like sometimes people act like they don’t have a choice. You don’t have a choice whether to support Newcastle in your heart or not, but you do have a choice in what you do about it.

 

 

I think there are a few points to make about what you're saying here like. 

First, you're saying 'you really do have a choice' but so did Meryl Streep in Sophie's Choice. That's not to trivialise or in any way draw a direct comparison, it's just to make an extreme point about the scope of there being an actual choice for most fans - i.e in reality they don't have a choice and couldn't walk away if they wanted to or tried to. Sportswashing works because they're worming their way into institutions they know people have deep, mostly irreversable emotional connections with. 

 

Second, the way you describe your situation, it doesn't sound like you chose either and got to the point of walking away naturally -  and similar to those that can't walk away because their hearts are tied to NUFC, you walked away because your heart was broken and didn't have those strong ties anymore. That's not a criticism or anything, I just think, well rather I know that it's not as simple as making a choice. If I walk away - something that I don't think is out of the question in the coming years - it'll be in the same way that I think you have - because I'll have been a passenger to how a feel, not because I made a moral choice against my will.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[St. Maximin]

The fans who feel obliged to now defend Saudi Arabia are just idiots and not really people we need to focus on. Every club has idiots in their fan base and luckily I don’t think the actions of these are cause for major ‘sportswashing’ concerns. They’re a small minority and aren’t bringing about major change in KSA’s reputation here. To do that KSA will simultaneously need to keep changing its laws over time too. 
 

Fwiw I still feel a bit uncomfortable about this and leaving aside human rights comparisons with the other countries, our connection to a state is even closer than Man City’s and Chelsea’s.
 

However, I also don’t feel I have to apologise for the Saudis as a conflicted fan, to criticise their human rights record whenever we score a goal or publicly concern myself with our Saudi apologist fans etc. I also don’t feel we have to hate everything about them - we talk about how ‘evil’ our owners are but they’re an investment fund that accumulated wealth through oil. I don’t get the impression that people who order the execution of people without fair trial are also involved in the day to day running of our club. Maybe that’s me being sportswashed then, but I can’t lie and say I don’t enjoy their involvement in our club. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Didn’t the head of PIF have a journalist murdered, dismembered and smuggled out of an embassy in bags? 
 

Good post in general though, IMO we don’t have any need to defend Saudi and what they do. As Chelsea are finding out, fans have no say over their owner and really the club is just a pawn. Just lucky for some clubs that they get on-field success in the process. 

[Kanj]

I think St Max is saying Yasir isn’t running the Gov. 

[St. Maximin]

7 minutes ago, Kanji said:

I think St Max is saying Yasir isn’t running the Gov. 

On those lines aye. I don’t really know much about the PIF power structure. I know MBS is the chair so that makes things a bit more awkward… but not sure how much day to day involvement he has in PIF, let alone us! It’s a state-owned entity that employs civil servants to invest in different industries to help develop and diversify the Saudi economy. Sure they’re not all nasty blokes!

 

Saying that if Bin Salman directly bought us and called all the shots, I’d certainly feel less comfortable. But that’s not essentially the case here right…?

[Doctor Zaius]

A Saudi flag in the away en d yesterday. I was three knackers walking past the club shop with one V Brighton.

 

Thick as fuck man. Leave it out. 

[triggs]

He is the boss of the company that bought Newcastle for hundreds of millions like. I'd imagine he had quite a large say in the purchase 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

2 minutes ago, Doctor Zaius said:

A Saudi flag in the away en d yesterday. I was three knackers walking past the club shop with one V Brighton.

 

Thick as fuck man. Leave it out. 

I just think there’ll always be a certain percentage of blinkered fans in any support, who think they have to back anything to do with their club. 
 

Of course it’s better if there’s none, but I wouldn’t worry about it too much. If only we could get teenage charvers to think a bit more critically

[leffe186]

1 hour ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

 

I think there are a few points to make about what you're saying here like. 

First, you're saying 'you really do have a choice' but so did Meryl Streep in Sophie's Choice. That's not to trivialise or in any way draw a direct comparison, it's just to make an extreme point about the scope of there being an actual choice for most fans - i.e in reality they don't have a choice and couldn't walk away if they wanted to or tried to. Sportswashing works because they're worming their way into institutions they know people have deep, mostly irreversable emotional connections with. 

 

Second, the way you describe your situation, it doesn't sound like you chose either and got to the point of walking away naturally -  and similar to those that can't walk away because their hearts are tied to NUFC, you walked away because your heart was broken and didn't have those strong ties anymore. That's not a criticism or anything, I just think, well rather I know that it's not as simple as making a choice. If I walk away - something that I don't think is out of the question in the coming years - it'll be in the same way that I think you have - because I'll have been a passenger to how a feel, not because I made a moral choice against my will.

 

 

 

Yeah that’s fair to a point, but it depends upon what you mean by those “strong ties”. I will be a Spurs fan forever and just yesterday I wore a Spurs shirt to my Dad’s ICU bed to see if it would cheer him up/jolt him out of his confusion (it did!) I have a deep, irreversible emotional connection to Spurs and the community around it. I just try not to engage with football as much any more.
 

The big, big advantage I have is that I moved to the US. I’ve got some of that feeling of sports community and belonging because we’re near Cleveland and I married into a Browns/Cavs etc family - maybe that’s filled the void. It is absolutely exponentially harder to choose not to actively support a team when you are living in that community, family/friends are going to the games etc. I already had two randoms commiserate with me yesterday because I was wearing the Spurs shirt out and about.

 

You’re definitely right in that circumstances made it easier for me to kind of edge away from football. All kinds of personal things - moving to the US, snapping my Achilles and so retiring from playing, having kids etc. I just dispute the idea that it’s not a choice. It’s a very complicated and nuanced one, but I can choose to subscribe to the Premier League on telly, or take the piss out of my Man City friend, or go on Spurscommunity to rant about the games, or whatever. Football just feels broken to me, so I’m going to try to disengage from it somewhat.

 

Sophie’s Choice is a terrible analogy btw

[Kid Icarus]

2 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

Yeah that’s fair to a point, but it depends upon what you mean by those “strong ties”. I will be a Spurs fan forever and just yesterday I wore a Spurs shirt to my Dad’s ICU bed to see if it would cheer him up/jolt him out of his confusion (it did!) I have a deep, irreversible emotional connection to Spurs and the community around it. I just try not to engage with football as much any more.
 

The big, big advantage I have is that I moved to the US. I’ve got some of that feeling of sports community and belonging because we’re near Cleveland and I married into a Browns/Cavs etc family - maybe that’s filled the void. It is absolutely exponentially harder to choose not to actively support a team when you are living in that community, family/friends are going to the games etc. I already had two randoms commiserate with me yesterday because I was wearing the Spurs shirt out and about.

 

You’re definitely right in that circumstances made it easier for me to kind of edge away from football. All kinds of personal things - moving to the US, snapping my Achilles and so retiring from playing, having kids etc. I just dispute the idea that it’s not a choice. It’s a very complicated and nuanced one, but I can choose to subscribe to the Premier League on telly, or take the piss out of my Man City friend, or go on Spurscommunity to rant about the games, or whatever. Football just feels broken to me, so I’m going to try to disengage from it somewhat.

 

Sophie’s Choice is a terrible analogy btw

 

 I thought it was a great one tbh - about as extreme an example I could have chosen about someone not actually having a choice, which is the only point I was hoping to make. 

It's probably fair to say there are push and pull factors and that you've had enough push factors to make the choice you mention a much more natural one to make. Although there'll be Newcastle fans in similar situations (I know I've had a bit of an existential crisis over what it means to be a Newcastle supporter since the Ashley Out campaign) the overwhelming majority are nowhere near that - at least yet. While they might have big reservations about the ownership, they aren't in a position where that 'choice' is the one you made. 

I hope you're dad's okay btw.

[TRon]

1 hour ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Didn’t the head of PIF have a journalist murdered, dismembered and smuggled out of an embassy in bags? 
 

Good post in general though, IMO we don’t have any need to defend Saudi and what they do. As Chelsea are finding out, fans have no say over their owner and really the club is just a pawn. Just lucky for some clubs that they get on-field success in the process. 

 

Of course we don't have to defend what goes on in Saudi Arabia. Let's not forget that their people will have their own moral code which fundamentally disagrees with ours. I doubt they'd defend a lot of western practices, so why would we feel the need to defend theirs?

 

But they like our football team now and that's something we can agree on.

[leffe186]

14 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

 I thought it was a great one tbh - about as extreme an example I could have chosen about someone not actually having a choice, which is the only point I was hoping to make. 

It's probably fair to say there are push and pull factors and that you've had enough push factors to make the choice you mention a much more natural one to make. Although there'll be Newcastle fans in similar situations (I know I've had a bit of an existential crisis over what it means to be a Newcastle supporter since the Ashley Out campaign) the overwhelming majority are nowhere near that - at least yet. While they might have big reservations about the ownership, they aren't in a position where that 'choice' is the one you made. 

I hope you're dad's okay btw.

Fingers crossed, and thanks!

 

I think using Sophie’s Choice as an analogy rather makes the opposite point. She had to choose between saving her daughter and “killing” her son, or saving her son and “killing her daughter. An awful choice to make.

 

I had to choose between watching Spurs games and football in general, arguing passionately about it and Spurs online and in bars (VAR etc), keeping up the membership and going to games when I get to the UK…and doing something else with that time and money. Very much not the same as Sophie’s .
 

And so I say again, we all have a choice to walk away from football to a greater or lesser extent. It’s harder for some, sure, but still a choice. You cannot walk away from being a Newcastle United fan at heart, but you can walk away from some of the things that being a fan would entail.

[Dr Venkman]

5 hours ago, leffe186 said:

Bravo. Although I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, we’re not all hypocrites. I’ve been done with this whole thing for a while now, and it sounds like Triggs is too.

 

You really do have a choice. Of course I’ll always be a Spurs fan at heart and when I look at the scores I’ll be happy when we win and sad when we lose, but I’m out for the most part. Barely even watch football any more. My heart’s broken.

 

Not trying to be holier-than-thou, honestly, just it seems like sometimes people act like they don’t have a choice. You don’t have a choice whether to support Newcastle in your heart or not, but you do have a choice in what you do about it.

We are all hypocrites. It's a question of degree, not of kind.

[Kid Icarus]

This always happens to me man.  I'm not comparing the severity or nature of the situations, I'm just using it to illustrate that it's not really a choice for a lot of people. 

Here's another one, partly to be annoying partly because it holds some truth to it. We all technically have a choice to walk away from our jobs, that's doesn't mean it's a realistic choice for our overall wellbeing. Likewise for a lot of football fans have the choice to walk away, that doesn't mean it's a realistic one for their less severe wellbeing. And yes, you'll say the situations aren't as severe, but it's a lot closer to being as severe as that for some people than it has been for you and therefore isn't really a choice for them. 

[Dr Venkman]

Just now, Kid Icarus said:

This always happens to me man.  I'm not comparing the severity or nature of the situations, I'm just using it to illustrate that it's not really a choice for a lot of people. 

Here's another one, partly to be annoying partly because it holds some truth to it. We all technically have a choice to walk away from our jobs, that's doesn't mean it's a realistic choice for our overall wellbeing. Likewise for a lot of football fans have the choice to walk away, that doesn't mean it's a realistic one for their less severe wellbeing. And yes, you'll say the situations aren't as severe, but it's a lot closer to being as severe as that for some people than it has been for you and therefore isn't really a choice for them. 

I agree. For some folk, football is all they have.

[leffe186]

6 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

This always happens to me man.  I'm not comparing the severity or nature of the situations, I'm just using it to illustrate that it's not really a choice for a lot of people. 

Here's another one, partly to be annoying partly because it holds some truth to it. We all technically have a choice to walk away from our jobs, that's doesn't mean it's a realistic choice for our overall wellbeing. Likewise for a lot of football fans have the choice to walk away, that doesn't mean it's a realistic one for their less severe wellbeing. And yes, you'll say the situations aren't as severe, but it's a lot closer to being as severe as that for some people than it has been for you and therefore isn't really a choice for them. 

That’s definitely true, and definitely closer. There’s certainly a huge scope of
what people get from football personally and from the connections and community it brings. I know a couple of Spurs fans with learning difficulties for whom Spurs is essentially their life. It’s not a realistic choice for everyone, and I would never suggest that. 

 

Just that when Thiago says we’re all hypocrites (a) he’s right but (b) insofar as some of us have made the choice to not be football fans in the same way, he’s not 100% right. Nearly everyone on this forum could decide to stop going to Newcastle matches/watching Sky if they chose to. It would be bloody hard, but they could. If they didn’t I wouldn’t berate them for “supporting” Saudi Arabia, but you yourself have pointed out the stark irony of “Support the team, not the regime.” 

 

Sophie’s Choice is still a terrible analogy though  It fails at the first step. She was forced to choose.

[Kid Icarus]

3 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

That’s definitely true, and definitely closer. There’s certainly a huge scope of
what people get from football personally and from the connections and community it brings. I know a couple of Spurs fans with learning difficulties for whom Spurs is essentially their life. It’s not a realistic choice for everyone, and I would never suggest that. 

 

Just that when Thiago says we’re all hypocrites (a) he’s right but (b) insofar as some of us have made the choice to not be football fans in the same way, he’s not 100% right. Nearly everyone on this forum could decide to stop going to Newcastle matches/watching Sky if they chose to. It would be bloody hard, but they could. If they didn’t I wouldn’t berate them for “supporting” Saudi Arabia, but you yourself have pointed out the stark irony of “Support the team, not the regime.” 

 

Sophie’s Choice is still a terrible analogy though  It fails at the first step. She was forced to choose.

 

Everyone is forced to choose when the choice is binary  Agree to disagree I think.

 

 

[TRon]

4 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

That’s definitely true, and definitely closer. There’s certainly a huge scope of
what people get from football personally and from the connections and community it brings. I know a couple of Spurs fans with learning difficulties for whom Spurs is essentially their life. It’s not a realistic choice for everyone, and I would never suggest that. 

 

Just that when Thiago says we’re all hypocrites (a) he’s right but (b) insofar as some of us have made the choice to not be football fans in the same way, he’s not 100% right. Nearly everyone on this forum could decide to stop going to Newcastle matches/watching Sky if they chose to. It would be bloody hard, but they could. If they didn’t I wouldn’t berate them for “supporting” Saudi Arabia, but you yourself have pointed out the stark irony of “Support the team, not the regime.” 

 

Sophie’s Choice is still a terrible analogy though  It fails at the first step. She was forced to choose.

 

So what was it that made you walk away from football? I know you have probably explained previously, but maybe I missed it.

[leffe186]

13 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Everyone is forced to choose when the choice is binary  Agree to disagree I think.

 

 

 Not a chance. She was living her life then a Nazi forced her at a crisis point to choose between her children. Me and other footy fans are living our footy fan lives and at any point we can decide to back away from football a bit, to whatever degree we like. If you can come up with an example where a choice to withdraw from football is even remotely similar to Sophie’s Choice I’d love to hear it

[Darth Crooks]

Big phone in on LBC in this re: nufc/chelsea

[Big Geordie]

8 minutes ago, Darth Crooks said:

Big phone in on LBC in this re: nufc/chelsea

 

Am listening in. A mackem just been on - although he was making reasonable points.

[leffe186]

29 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

So what was it that made you walk away from football? I know you have probably explained previously, but maybe I missed it.

Will post in a bit, got to do a COVID test

[Darth Crooks]

1 minute ago, Big Geordie said:

 

Am listening in. A mackem just been on - although he was making reasonable points.

I tried ringing in and they’ve let a Sunderland fan on? Weird.