Eddie Howe

[Jackie Broon]

19 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Even if you have a very negative view on this season it just seems to me another level that you also don’t believe Howe could go again with a summer to refresh and improve the squad.
 

I’ve pretty much given up on anything good happening this season but it just adds up to one poor season for an otherwise brilliant manager. So I don’t think I’ll be changing to Howe out for a long time yet. 

 

What concerns me is that the same issues have been present all season and, more than the players, he has gone stale. It seems he can't motivate his players like he previously could, we're tactically stale and you could set your watch by his substitutions. There's absolutely no indication that a squad refresh would resolve tge issues we have.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19 by Jackie Broon

[Dr Venkman]

1 minute ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

That's damning but not on Howe

Why?

[Coffee_Johnny]

4 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

I said the stats were useful.

 

I also said wider context was useful. 

 

 

 

True. Sorry just couldn’t resist the easy quip. ‘Willis’ was talking about a frame of mind, we/people tend to like simple answers to disappointments. Responding emotionally and blaming Howe (in this case) for everything: ‘his’ signings, ‘he’ was given £250m, ‘he’ just watches can’t coach, doesn’t know what to do, the players aren’t playing well for ‘him’ is just all a bit adolescent and grasping. We’re all disappointed. But good decisions are rarely made by hot heads. 

[Coffee_Johnny]

4 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

@Coffee_Johnny

 

Stats are good. I like stats. Especially ones that aren’t predictive.

 

But this is very important: 

 

Aye, thanks for the GCSE stats lesson 👍

[Stuy_O]

10 hours ago, Kid Icarus said:

Blaming Howe for last summer is by definition ignoring the wider context.

 

Lets break down the wider context then.

- After the cup final win, a clear preference by PIF to side with the managers ideas of transfers, resulting in a total collapse of an already poor working relationship between Howe and Mitchell. We can argue all day whether he was right or wrong, but Howe clearly wanted prem based players when Mitchell was brought in to do the opposite. This is as clear as day, and it's why Mitchell left. Was Mitchell a c**t for exiting without warning? Yes, but if this is a boxing match they're both drawing on points in the 12th round. 

 

You didn't need a crystal ball to predict any of the above either, when both parties were doing interviews about how they saw the direction of the club, it was like the old Newcastle United everyone loved. Eddie spat his dummy out the second Stavely was out the door, so for this I will absolutely attibute some - not all -  blame at the managers door. We also had the biggest warning from the summer before when we embarrassingly hunted down Marc Guehi's signature only to be rejected by Palace every time. Bells were going off immediately that these two couldn't work together, and it posed big questions around our scouting and recruitment policy (against the backdrop of PSR). I believe Howe wants to much say on players. Thats not saying he should just accept any old junk, but I honestly think he would have been rejecting every single player Mitchell brought forward, but thats a personal view. 

 

What he clearly can't be held accountable for is the seemingly cavalier mindset from those above him by allowing him, his nephew, and Nickson, navigate one the most difficult transfer windows we've ever had. Nor is it his fault Isak acted the way he did, and any manager would find it difficult. 

 

A proactive ownership would surely have done something to try and help - but this leads that other discussion about how slow PIF are at just about everything.  Then again, can you just quickly pluck a DOF from thin air, get him signed up to the 'project', all this whilst your CEO (another guilty party) is leaving due to illness, and your prized asset is on strike? 

 

So like I said, no one escapes this one looking good, from manager to players to directors to owners. 

 

On the pitch, Howe I think is freezing under the pressure with his decisions or lack of, but he's not being helped by his players (who he got this far), plenty of whom have chucked it in, aren't good enough, or aren't justifying the huge fee's we paid for them. If you combine the two it's the worst of both worlds. It seems to me like the players can only play consistently well in one scenario, which is a bouncing SJP when the other team fold under the noise, but you have to earn that support.

But this is a team full of experienced internationals, and a now experienced coach, and the facts need to be laid bare. We are 14th in the league, having lost 15 with more doubtless to come. We have been turned over twice by our nearest and dearest. We are now looking over our shoulder, the talk of Europe beforehand simply laughable. Our eyes aren't lying to us, and we have been playing horrendous football for the majority (not all) of this season, even in the games we win. This has nothing to do with a fall out with executives, or PIF's slow approach, or PSR. Even the sale of Isak now has the whiff on an excuse when we are week in week out serving up the dross that we do. This is on the manager and his players, who instead of coming out fighting are doing anything but.

 

TL:DR - everyone needs to shoulder the blame, including Eddie Howe. 

 

 

Edited April 19 by Stuy_O

[Paullow]

I was in the camp of we can afford one poor season, hopefully refresh over the summer and go again next season. I still wouldn't necessarily want him sacked / to leave in the summer, but the last few weeks instead of being 'wow, after all he's done for the club, I can't believe they would just get rid, that's ridiculous', I'd be more like I can see why they have done that if he was to go, especially when it seems a decent proportion of the fan base would be open to change. 

 

I am less and less confident that he can turn it around, so by that, it probably would be better to be more ruthless than to delay what is starting to look the inevitable, but I still wouldn't say that I was 'Eddie Howe out!'.

 

Very interesting summer ahead with a lot of big decisions to be made.

[Holmesy]

15 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Even if you have a very negative view on this season it just seems to me another level that you also don’t believe Howe could go again with a summer to refresh and improve the squad.
 

I’ve pretty much given up on anything good happening this season but it just adds up to one poor season for an otherwise brilliant manager. So I don’t think I’ll be changing to Howe out for a long time yet. 

Even if he could, I don't want him to. If he was as good as we thought he was, he'd be able to get some sort of tune out of the current group. Just throwing more players at the problem masks obvious limitations in his approach. I want evolution and flexibility, and he has proven that's not his game. And i'm bored and frustrated with his football and his wank in-game management.

 

[gbandit]

17 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Even if you have a very negative view on this season it just seems to me another level that you also don’t believe Howe could go again with a summer to refresh and improve the squad.
 

I’ve pretty much given up on anything good happening this season but it just adds up to one poor season for an otherwise brilliant manager. So I don’t think I’ll be changing to Howe out for a long time yet. 

I’m also Howe in. However, I do wonder if he’s got the reserves in him to turn this around. Wonder if he’s completely burnt out. I think he can turn it around in the summer but I’m gutted about how Woltemade’s been used this season and I think Howe should shoulder a lot of the blame for that.
 

I think he also needs to move away from viewing every single game as “what is my #1 team to get a result in this match”. Over the course of a season in Europe that’s not sustainable, it burns the players out either physically or mentally and it doesn’t help others to develop. This is a major fundamental area he’s not shown a lot of flexibility on.

 

Lastly, I don’t have a lot of confidence in him being heavily involved in transfers. 
 

If he can have transfers largely taken out of his hands, start using the squad more (I recognise we need a deeper squad for that but he’s extremely loath to bring in development players into games) and move away from prioritising players whose strongest attributes are their running then I think he’s still the man for us. The huge caveat in that is how much he can change and the fact that he’s talked about wanting us to be a possession-based side but never managed to make us look good when we dominate possession. We’ve looked amazing in the past when we were an all-out pressing machine but have we seen us dominate football matches where we haven’t been press merchants?

[St. Maximin]

1 hour ago, RS said:

I’ll bet some of the folk wanting Howe out were also saying give Bruce a chance. 

An interesting take I can’t see any evidence to support. Regardless, the guy many said was our worst ever manager got us to finish twice higher than where we are now and are on course to finish. Let that sink in. I don’t want to sound like some nasty Bruce apologist, but it’s only fair to point out how we comfortably stayed up with an awful team and star players often injured and I don’t really get challenged on this. We always have to jump through hoops to show why Rafa was better (which he clearly was btw), saying he always had a plan and so on, but ultimately it didn’t make much difference given it’s a results-based business (appreciate we’d have gone down if Bruce wasn’t sacked mind). 
 

I think this is relevant because we’re talking about who is at fault here. I don’t like the ownership/board for many reasons, but we despised Ashley yet that was rarely a reason to not want a manager sacked. Also unfortunately the board can’t sack themselves, harsh as that sounds to managers. 
 

In this case I think there are very fair reasons to say Howe was hard done-by last year. But still, with the players he’s had this has been a shambles and as has been pointed out, they weren’t nobodies. Other clubs have had to deal with losing star players and managed to adapt very well, most notably Bournemouth and Brentford - latter people thought would be in a relegation battle. 
 

I really want Howe to turn it around still, but it’s worryingly looking more and more like the end is coming. 

 

 

Edited April 19 by St. Maximin

[bobbydazzla]

7 minutes ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

True. Sorry just couldn’t resist the easy quip. ‘Willis’ was talking about a frame of mind, we/people tend to like simple answers to disappointments. Responding emotionally and blaming Howe (in this case) for everything: ‘his’ signings, ‘he’ was given £250m, ‘he’ just watches can’t coach, doesn’t know what to do, the players aren’t playing well for ‘him’ is just all a bit adolescent and grasping. We’re all disappointed. But good decisions are rarely made by hot heads. 

Aye, agree with that. 
 

I try and focus on what Howe definitely has some level of control over. The tactics, selection, mentality, subs etc etc.

 

Personally I don’t criticise him for the signings, because most of the commentary about who was signed and why is just speculation. So I don’t know what role he actually played in the recruitment. 

 

But the way the team performs on the pitch is largely down to him. So how shite / good we’ve been is what I’ll judge him on. 

 

 

Edited April 19 by bobbydazzla

[bobbydazzla]

3 minutes ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

Aye, thanks for the GCSE stats lesson 👍

It was my pleasure. 

[Hanshithispantz]

For all the talk of it being impossible for him to ever recover from this season, we're still only 6 points behind 6th placed Chelsea 

 

Everyone has been caught out by the aggression and physicality this season.

 

First step will be to bring in a non-meme keeper who has a better save percentage than like 50% or whatever daft it is for our 2.

[Antipode23]

5 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

That's damning but not on Howe

 

See, what fascinates me is how you've decided that people losing interest in the team MUST be THEIR fault. It couldn't possibly be Eddie's/the team's, or perhaps a mix. Nope, it's "you must be a terrible fan." Seriously?

 

Also certain posters need to get off the "omg you think it's all the manager's fault" train. No, most of us don't. Stop being lazy and deliberately misrepresenting our position. Ever heard of a strawman? Give it a Google.

[Antipode23]

13 minutes ago, Stuy_O said:

 

Lets break down the wider context then.

- After the cup final win, a clear preference by PIF to side with the managers ideas of transfers, resulting in a total collapse of any already poor working relationship between Howe and Mitchell. We can argue all day whether he was right or wrong, but Howe clearly wanted prem based players when Mitchell was brought in to do the opposite. This is as clear as day, and it's why Mitchell left. Was Mitchell a c**t for exiting without warning? Yes, but if this is a boxing match they're both drawing on points in the 12th round. 

 

You didn't need a crystal ball to predict any of the above either, when both parties were doing interviews about how they saw the direction of the club, it was like the old Newcastle United everyone loved. Eddie spat his dummy out the second Stavely was out the door, so for this I will absolutely attibute some - not all -  blame at the managers door. We also had the biggest warning from the summer before when we embarrassingly hunted down Marc Guehi's signature only to be rejected by Palace every time. Bells were going off immediately that these two couldn't work together. I believe Howe wants to much say in players. Thats not saying he should just accept any old junk, but I honestly think he would have been rejecting every single player Mitchell brought forward, but thats a personal view. 

 

What he clearly can't be held accountable for is the seemingly cavalier mindset from those above him by allowing him, his nephew, and Nickson, navigate one the most difficult transfer windows we've ever had. Nor is it his fault Isak acted the way he did, and any manager would find it difficult. 

 

A proactive ownership would surely have done something to try and help - but this leads that other discussion about how slow PIF are at just about everything.  Then again, can you just quickly pluck a DOF from thin air, get him signed up to the 'project', all this whilst your CEO (another guilty party) is leaving due to illness, and your prized asset is on strike? 

 

So like I said, no one escapes this one looking good, from manager to players to directors to owners. 

 

On the pitch, Howe I think is freezing under the pressure with his decisions or lack of, but he's not being helped by his players (who he got this far), plenty of whom have chucked it in, aren't good enough, or aren't justifying the huge fee's we paid for them. If you combine the two it's the worst of both worlds. It seems to me like the players can only play consistently well in one scenario, which is a bouncing SJP when the other team fold under the noise, but you have to earn that support.

But this is a team full of experienced internationals, and a now experienced coach, and the facts need to be laid bare. We are 14th in the league, having lost 15 with more doubtless to come. We have been turned over twice by our nearest and dearest. We are now looking over our shoulder, the talk of Europe beforehand simply laughable. Our eyes aren't lying to us, and we have been playing horrendous football for the majority (not all) of this season, even in the games we win. This has nothing to do with a fall out with executives, or PIF's slow approach. This is on the manager and his players, who instead of coming out fighting are doing anything but.

 

TL:DR - everyone needs to shoulder the blame, including Eddie Howe. 

 

I've noticed that most people who have major criticism to direct towards Eddie can actually flesh out their view, as you have, in an articulate and balanced way. Whereas those who won't have a bar of criticizing Eddie will often refuse to properly engage on the nuances of the issue and resort to personal slights like insinuating you're a bad fan, closet Mackem, have no patience, just want a scapegoat, the list goes on. It's tedious and disingenuous.

 

 

Edited April 19 by Antipode23

[Dokko]

He has that look about him when his team was heading for relegation, whilst getting beat off a Steve Bruce NUFC team. He has no answers, and keeps doing what was once working, perplexed as to why it no longer does. That is not an elite manager. He can't spend money. As soon as it comes in and expectations are on him, he folds. This is what we've now seen twice, it will happen again at his next club. He's best working with lower end players, squeezing every drop out of them to become something greater than their parts. We also know he incapable of managing a team which plays regularly more than once a week, with him not rotating, not giving chances to fringe or youth. Matchday he is ridgid, inflexible, and routine. He's so predictable its become a massive running joke amongst the fans, which is damning. If we can predict it, then i can bet managers and opposition can also and use it against us. 

 

That's a hell of a lot to change in a couple of months, from a man who doesn't see any of it as an issue. This is why for me its the end, and the club would be mad to invest in him (and didn't do so in Jan) further than they have. We've a lot of damage to undo from the summer window, it starts by playing Wolt & Wiss every game we have left, in hope something clicks or at least others see they are still capable players. He won't do it. I'd find someone temp to go till the end of the season who prefers 2 upfront, hopefully get some goals and raise their profile rather than them sitting on the bench, collecting dust and tanking in value. 

[Coffee_Johnny]

8 minutes ago, Antipode23 said:

 

See, what fascinates me is how you've decided that people losing interest in the team MUST be THEIR fault. It couldn't possibly be Eddie's/the team's, or perhaps a mix. Nope, it's "you must be a terrible fan." Seriously?

 

Also certain posters need to get off the "omg you think it's all the manager's fault" train. No, most of us don't. Stop being lazy and deliberately misrepresenting our position. Ever heard of a strawman? Give it a Google.

He says creating a divisive ‘us and them’  notion and strawman of his own. 

[Jesse Pinkman]

38 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Even if you have a very negative view on this season it just seems to me another level that you also don’t believe Howe could go again with a summer to refresh and improve the squad.
 

I’ve pretty much given up on anything good happening this season but it just adds up to one poor season for an otherwise brilliant manager. So I don’t think I’ll be changing to Howe out for a long time yet. 

What does go again look like? This isn’t FIFA or FM where you just change a few players and now everything suddenly works. 

 

The fundamental truth is Howe is a system man, not a man manager or a fluid tactical manager.  He has his system which he has perfected over his career and it works great until it doesn’t.

 

The other teams have huge data teams now. They have the data, they’ve worked out the weaknesses and how to beat his system. It’s done.  

 

You can tell the players know that as well. I think they still love the man but don’t believe in the system anymore.
 

Even if you refreshed the squad with players who do still believe in it, the other teams still know how to beat Howe’s system. They are not just going to magically forget next season. 
 

So by going again do you mean Howe will do something he has never done before and something managers rarely do, completely revolutionise his system to a new system that is good enough to get these players CL? 

 

In reality Howe has shown no real desire to change his system and would likely burn everything to the ground before he does. Think Amorim. They’d rather just go somewhere else. 

[Hanshithispantz]

4 minutes ago, Jesse Pinkman said:

What does go again look like? This isn’t FIFA or FM where you just change a few players and now everything suddenly works. 

Do you genuinely believe that a top keeper doesn't have us with 6 more points this season?

[Antipode23]

3 minutes ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

He says creating a divisive ‘us and them’  notion and strawman of his own. 

 

a) there is division in the fanbase, I haven't created it

 

b) division isn't always completely bad, contrary to modern belief

 

c) in this case, if people want to absolve Howe of almost all blame, I'm very happy being 'divided' from them. It's just not a reasonable position and I won't pretend otherwise

[andycap]

Needs time on the training ground to get the best out of his summer transfers, then basically has time on the training and still doesn't start the two strikers. 😂

What's the point of the extra time training if your just gonna wheel out the same ineffective dross you were fielding before the training time. 

[J7]

59 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Because it's the only question that's being put forward is whether we should keep Howe, and that's at best.

 

In other cases it's an assertion that we should.

 

In both cases the amount of times he's blamed for things that are objectively not his fault (nigh on always from the summer) is ridiculous. Someone's just claimed that no one is doing that, then 2 posts later someone was blaming him for us not selling Isak soon enough. It's day after day at this point.

Sorry, but that’s complete nonsense. It looks like an excuse just to not engage with valid arguments and to dismiss points raised. 

[Chicken Dancer]

It’s that thing off Batman isn’t it - you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. 
 

He doesn’t deserve to be ever seen as a villain but I’m telling you now if we serve up another shitty performance against Brighton (you can forget arsenal next week. Basically a bye week for them) and lose yet again, it’ll turn nasty in there. Been bubbling for a while now, certainly around me in the upper Gallowgate. 

[Holmesy]

7 minutes ago, Jesse Pinkman said:

What does go again look like? This isn’t FIFA or FM where you just change a few players and now everything suddenly works. 

 

The fundamental truth is Howe is a system man, not a man manager or a fluid tactical manager.  He has his system which he has perfected over his career and it works great until it doesn’t.

 

The other teams have huge data teams now. They have the data, they’ve worked out the weaknesses and how to beat his system. It’s done.  

 

You can tell the players know that as well. I think they still love the man but don’t believe in the system anymore.
 

Even if you refreshed the squad with players who do still believe in it, the other teams still know how to beat Howe’s system. They are not just going to magically forget next season. 
 

So by going again do you mean Howe will do something he has never done before and something managers rarely do, completely revolutionise his system to a new system that is good enough to get these players CL? 

 

In reality Howe has shown no real desire to change his system and would likely burn everything to the ground before he does. Think Amorim. They’d rather just go somewhere else. 

Amorim is the best comparison I can think of right now for Eddie, and look at what ManUre have don't since he left. 
His system worked at Sporting, didn't work at ManUre, and he wan't for changing. 

Eddie's worked here but now it doesn't, and he isn't for changing. We'll be doing the same thing in 5 years if he's still here.

[r0cafella]

7 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

Do you genuinely believe that a top keeper doesn't have us with 6 more points this season?

Maybe, maybe not but you've watched us this season right?  

[TheInfiniteOdyssey]

15 minutes ago, Dokko said:

He has that look about him when his team was heading for relegation, whilst getting beat off a Steve Bruce NUFC team. He has no answers, and keeps doing what was once working, perplexed as to why it no longer does.

Agree with this. The last couple games since the break are strikingly familiar from his end at Bournemouth imo, the absolute listlessness of it all.