Financial Fair Play / Profit & Sustainability

[The College Dropout]

30 minutes ago, duo said:

Surely if we were desperate to sell PIF would take a player to the Saudi league? That would be the most logical play. 

 

 

 

We seem desperate to sell. 
 

Yes - if PIF were determined to circumvent PSR that would be the play. They either don’t want to do it. Or none of the players we could realistically sell to PIF and generate enough money that passes FMV dont want to go to Saudi. At least not commit to it in June. 
 

You would also think we could sell the training ground or even the stadium and lease it back. But again - doesn’t look like PIF are willing to go to those measures to circumvent FFP.  

12 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

If we were/are £30m short, why did we even bother thinking about making any moves in January?

 

The only potential moves out discussed were Trippier and Miggy and they would have been <£15m each, if we'd then gone on to sign someone, even accounting for amortisation that's still going to add a few million to the books.

 

Wouldn't be shocked if we are short, but I'd be very surprised and a little disappointed if we've miscalculated by that much.

We were linked with more outgoing than in. Including Wilson.  
 

We are almost certainly not PSR compliant unless we sell.  IMO we have miscalculated our transfer and wages. 
 

Thats why Hall was purchased for next season.   We must’ve thought revenues would increase or we could sell squad players but that hasn’t happened to so we are likely selling our very best young player. 
 

I also think Ashworth was prepared to sell Joelinton this summer for a modest fee which is why he eas hard balling the contract.  With the Brazilian lad coming in - Ederson.  

[The Prophet]

So we overspend in 2023, but have plenty of time to balance the books.

 

We try to shift Almiron and Wilson in January with no success.

 

Summer comes around, the Saudi transfer market is yet to open, leaving us looking at trying to sell Minteh and Wilson to clubs in Europe.

 

We're currently trying to flog the latter to the highest bidder, but may have to become involved in a "swap" with another PL club.

 

Who knows what the crack is with non-playing assets under PSR, but we either can't or won't become involved.

 

It doesn't seem that deep.

[Jackie Broon]

33 minutes ago, Upthemags said:

This is either utter nonsense, or we're a bunch of morons

 

I just can't see us putting ourselves in that position, obviously the club would have been fully aware of our position in relation to FFP since August (or December accounting for CL income), there have been no surprises or changes, I just can't see that we got ourselves into a £30m hole last summer and have done nothing about it for 10 months.

 

And there's just no way the club would let anyone outside of the club know our financial position or that we need to sell, this is probably just educated guesswork by someone who makes a living from educated guesswork to give the impression of insider knowledge.

[mattypnufc]

Isn't he historically a mouthpiece for the 'big 6' - aka akin to pushing their agenda.  

[The Prophet]

1 minute ago, mattypnufc said:

Isn't he historically a mouthpiece for the 'big 6' - aka akin to pushing their agenda.  

 

I'd be shocked if he isn't on Chelsea's payroll.

[Nucasol]

1 minute ago, mattypnufc said:

Isn't he historically a mouthpiece for the 'big 6' - aka akin to pushing their agenda.  

He pipes Boehly off for snus and transfer tit bits.

[Chris_R]

One thing that might help us, but aren't injured players wages normally covered by insurance?

 

Amount we've had, we're probably actually in profit.

[Dokko]

Just now, Chris_R said:

One thing that might help us, but aren't injured players wages normally covered by insurance?

 

Amount we've had, we're probably actually in profit.

 

Only if injured during international duty covered by the nation. 

[Terraloon]

1 hour ago, Colos Short and Curlies said:

 

But that just means you don't sign a contract that you can then pull out of if a medical fails.

 

In practice you agree to the terms but don't enter into a legal obligation until everything you need to be in place is so. Footballing bodies may give leeway around transfer dates to allow for the legals to complete.

 

Its the same as buying a house, you don't exchange contracts with a get out clause if you can't get a mortgage and you dont buy a car that allows you to back out if you don't get a loan. You get everything in order before signing

Think you totally misunderstand what a pre contract agreement is in footballing terms. The following aren’t my words

The difference between a pre-contract and a contract is that the parties to the pre-contract have not agreed the essential terms and so the pre-contract does not reflect the final agreement. However, if a pre-contract contains all the essential terms that have been agreed, then the pre-contract is effectively a final contract and is likely to be binding.

FIFA’s Dispute Resolution Chamber (‘DRC’) has had to determine on a number of occasions whether a pre-contract has binding effect when a dispute between a club and a player has arisen. The DRC has generally held that a pre-contract is binding if it contains essential terms such as the duration of the contract, remuneration and additional benefits. 

In an attempt to release themselves from the obligations under a pre-contract, parties have attempted to allege that the validity of a pre-contract was conditional upon a player successfully completing a medical or obtaining a work permit. However, the DRC has rejected all such arguments on the basis that Article 18(4) of FIFA’s Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players 2012 prevents the validity of a contract between a player and a club being “subject to a successful medical examination and/or the grant of a work permit”.

[The College Dropout]

42 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

I just can't see us putting ourselves in that position, obviously the club would have been fully aware of our position in relation to FFP since August (or December accounting for CL income), there have been no surprises or changes, I just can't see that we got ourselves into a £30m hole last summer and have done nothing about it for 10 months.

 

And there's just no way the club would let anyone outside of the club know our financial position or that we need to sell, this is probably just educated guesswork by someone who makes a living from educated guesswork to give the impression of insider knowledge.

Other (non-NUFC) people have claimed we are in a PSR hole.

 

The language from Eales in January and that weird flutter of rumours (Trippier, Wilson, Miggy) indicated something was up.  As well as the idea we might sell Joelinton or crown jewels for that reason.

 

I believe it. Why would we sell Minteh in June otherwise? Why not give him the summer with Howe and we decide keep, loan, sell in August?

[Colos Short and Curlies]

25 minutes ago, Terraloon said:

Think you totally misunderstand what a pre contract agreement is in footballing terms. The following aren’t my words

The difference between a pre-contract and a contract is that the parties to the pre-contract have not agreed the essential terms and so the pre-contract does not reflect the final agreement. However, if a pre-contract contains all the essential terms that have been agreed, then the pre-contract is effectively a final contract and is likely to be binding.

FIFA’s Dispute Resolution Chamber (‘DRC’) has had to determine on a number of occasions whether a pre-contract has binding effect when a dispute between a club and a player has arisen. The DRC has generally held that a pre-contract is binding if it contains essential terms such as the duration of the contract, remuneration and additional benefits. 

In an attempt to release themselves from the obligations under a pre-contract, parties have attempted to allege that the validity of a pre-contract was conditional upon a player successfully completing a medical or obtaining a work permit. However, the DRC has rejected all such arguments on the basis that Article 18(4) of FIFA’s Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players 2012 prevents the validity of a contract between a player and a club being “subject to a successful medical examination and/or the grant of a work permit”.

 

And yet transfers fall apart all the time due to failed medicals. It's almost as if clubs legal teams are smart enough to create agreements that omit just enough information to stop from being legally binding until everything is in place.

[Whitley mag]

I think Jacobs is a weird one but there’s a lot of journalists close to club indicating we need to sell.

 

If it is the case maybe PL are dragging out FMV for training gear sponsor, income we might have been relying on, or without a DOF co-ordinating business we’ve been caught in a bit of paralysis with our transfer business.

[The Prophet]

 

[Terraloon]

5 minutes ago, Colos Short and Curlies said:

 

And yet transfers fall apart all the time due to failed medicals. It's almost as if clubs legal teams are smart enough to create agreements that omit just enough information to stop from being legally binding until everything is in place.

They do but that wasn’t what was being discussed. It was the fact that once a pre contract has been agreed then it can’t be conditional on a medical or visa.

 

A pre contract is signed off by a player when their contract is coming to an end and the player has agreed with another club that he will sign for them when his current contract comes to an end.

[CheikBoom]

5 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

 

With it being a soft deadline I wonder whether they'll agree deals prior to June 30th pending PL approval? That's if its true of course. 

[Abacus]

Still struggling to understand that retracted SSN tweet re clubs supposedly in PSR trouble and how anyone could know what any other club's internal finances are supposed to be.

 

You could make a semi-educated guess on who was near the edge but that's all it would have to be.

[duo]

3 minutes ago, Abacus said:

Still struggling to understand that retracted SSN tweet re clubs supposedly in PSR trouble and how anyone could know what any other club's internal finances are supposed to be.

 

You could make a semi-educated guess on who was near the edge but that's all it would have to be.

Well exactly 

[Jackie Broon]

36 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Other (non-NUFC) people have claimed we are in a PSR hole.

 

The language from Eales in January and that weird flutter of rumours (Trippier, Wilson, Miggy) indicated something was up.  As well as the idea we might sell Joelinton or crown jewels for that reason.

 

I believe it. Why would we sell Minteh in June otherwise? Why not give him the summer with Howe and we decide keep, loan, sell in August?

 

What Eales was talking about was about sales of players releasing future increases in income, speculating to accumulate rather than plugging a ffp hole (although I realise that he wouldn't say that).

 

The Trippier rumours seemed to be driven by unexpected interest from Bayern rather than us trying to sell.

 

Trying to move on Miggy seemed to be connected to us trying to release funds to spend in January rather than plug a ffp hole.

 

Maybe we are in that much FFP trouble, but I think it's unlikely.

 

 

Edited Friday at 13:45 by Jackie Broon

[janpawel]

34 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Other (non-NUFC) people have claimed we are in a PSR hole.

 

The language from Eales in January and that weird flutter of rumours (Trippier, Wilson, Miggy) indicated something was up.  As well as the idea we might sell Joelinton or crown jewels for that reason.

 

I believe it. Why would we sell Minteh in June otherwise? Why not give him the summer with Howe and we decide keep, loan, sell in August?

Yeah exactly, wish we could at least take a look for a couple months 

 

The rumours of Brighton wanting him are very telling 

[Dr Jinx]

If I remember correctly we were in the market for a player in January, but perhaps that would have depended on Almiron going to Saudi.

 

He didn’t and we decided to wait until summer. But I vaguely remember Howe commenting on available funds and he said something to the effect of “there’s funds available for the right player at the right price - but it’s very hard to do a deal in January”

 

 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

17 minutes ago, Terraloon said:

They do but that wasn’t what was being discussed. It was the fact that once a pre contract has been agreed then it can’t be conditional on a medical or visa.

 

A pre contract is signed off by a player when their contract is coming to an end and the player has agreed with another club that he will sign for them when his current contract comes to an end.

 

So in a discussion on when a transfer becomes final you've brought in a piece of text that relates to a different matter altogether.

 

What a player agrees for the end of their contract is irrelevant here, a transfer will be completed once all obligations are completed including passing a medical. It is at that point all of the conditions have been met and transfer of the players registration takes place.

[TRon]

1 hour ago, Jack27 said:

We had an offer of 30m for Miggy in January 

 

If we can sell that then the PSR rules aren't worth the paper they are written on.

[Jackie Broon]

All of these reporters have been talking about June 30th as a deadline, now he's saying 'well they can declare a near miss deal', which there isn't any provision for in the rules (although I don't lnow if it the income could be put into the previous year in accounting terms?)

 

Seem like he's setting it up so if sales don't happen by Sunday he's not shown to be wrong.

 

 

Edited Friday at 13:53 by Jackie Broon

[The College Dropout]

7 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

What Eales was talking about was about sales of players releasing future increases in income, speculating to accumulate rather than plugging a ffp hole (although I realise that he wouldn't say that).

 

The Trippier rumours seemed to be driven by unexpected interest from Bayern rather than us trying to sell.

 

Trying to move on Miggy seemed to be connected to us trying to release funds to spend in January rather than plug a ffp hole.

 

Maybe we are in that much FFP trouble, but I think it's unlikely.

 

 

 

Eales put out the statement and we suddenly had offers for 3 of our players.

 

IMO we put it out there - certain players are for sale.

 

Here we are. Strong rumours that we need to sell to be PSR compliant. I don't believe for a second the journo's are making this up from thin air.

 

IMO we've got 2 days to raise £20m-30m or we'll be hit with a points deduction.

 

The rumours of the 6 clubs needing to sell to be compliant seem true. Or at least mostly true. Villa sold a first-teamer for a mediocre fee in June. Chelsea doing all kinds of weird incoming and outgoings. Forest look to be selling. We look to be selling. Everton are selling Godfrey. Leicester are trying to sell KDH quickly.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

6 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

All of these reporters have been talking about June 30th as a deadline, now he's saying 'well they can declare a near miss deal', which there isn't any provision for in the rules (although I don't lnow if it the income could be put into the previous year in accounting terms?)

 

Seem like he's setting it up so if sales don't happen by Sunday he's not shown to be wrong.

 

 

 

 

I think he's saying the PL will make it up as they go along