Harvey Barnes

[ExiledGeordie]

1 hour ago, The Prophet said:

I wouldn't be selling ASM, Wilson and Almiron in the same transfer window, it has the potential to disrupt the squad harmony Howe has worked so hard to create. If we could get good money for ASM or Almiron though, it has to be considered. 

 

I've said elsewhere I'd be shocked if Almiron scored anywhere near as many goals this coming season. His value will only decline from here and he's very replaceable. ASM is a bit more unique but probably fetches a larger fee.

Yes you can’t change the team too much all at once or too quickly for various reasons - cost, dressing room vibe etc. I think they’re very aware of this.

[Dr.Spaceman]

2 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Think it’s a little unfair to assume that some of our players’ true level is more like the Bruce version than the Howe version. Everyone one needs coaching and the right environment to do well.  

 

It's funny how this rule applies to ASM given he's arguably much less effective for us these days. Of all the players I thought would improve under Howe he was one I thought would become an absolute world beater.

[Conjo]

31 minutes ago, ponsaelius said:

Love Miggy but think there's a pretty big chance he'll revert to the mean next year.

 

What is his mean though? His spell at Atlanta, here under Benitez and Howe - or his time playing in a team managed by Bruce?

[Keegans Export]

1 hour ago, Matt1892 said:

It is a nonsense argument and one people will avoid.
 

There is a legitimate debate on how we overcome FFP in the next few years as I’m of the belief that it was implemented to keep teams from breaking in to that top group of clubs on a permanent basis, as they will always have the money to buy the better players and pay the bigger wages until you can match them financially, which you are looking at a 5 year minimum period of being there or thereabouts.

 

In ASM you have a player who wouldn’t be in my starting 11 and that Harvey Barnes could replace for a similar fee, freeing up funds over the next few years due to ASM being pure profit.

 

You then have Callum Wilson who has came off his best season scoring wise but again, he wouldn’t be in my starting 11, is 31 and in the final 12 months of his contract. Now is the only time we can realistically get decent money for him especially after his finish to the season, as it has help people forget the period from November until April where he only scored one goal in all competitions.

 

Then there is Almiron, a player who would be in my starting 11 but who sits in a position where we clearly need an upgrade. His purple patch has boosted his value but I don’t have any faith that we will see that again, meaning his value will drop going forward.

 

So if we want to keep up our level of spending that has taken us to the Champions League so we can keep progressing from there then we need to sell, otherwise we slow down and are overtaken.

 

You make a lot of good points, but there are two issues I see there;

 

1. We have enough absolute shite in our squad that need shifting, even just to get the wages off the books, before we look at the core 14-15 players who played the majority of minutes last season

 

2. If you sell Wilson for example, yeah you're bringing some money in but you're then committing yourself to bringing in a replacement which is going to cost money, so the gain is going to be fairly limited. There are enough weak spots within our squad that need addressing without creating another weak spot by selling someone who played a lot of minutes and scored a lot of goals.

 

Between them Miggy and Wilson played nearly 4,500 mins last season. Add in the extra European games and that's a lot of minutes that you're going to need to replace by selling those two.

[Toon88]

Wilson going nowhere. End of.

[The Prophet]

Almiron's xG was much improved but he still hugely outperformed it by scoring a handful of ridiculous goals. It matches the eye test too.

[Tsunami]

Teams wised up to the Bruno dink over the defender for Miggy to run on to during the later part of the season.

 

Without checking I’m also going to say that most of his goals were cutting in and curling the ball towards the far post.

 

He seems a great team mate, runs his bollocks off but, get a decent offer and I’d take it. He occupies a position we need to upgrade, be interesting if Gordon starts the season ahead of Miggy if he’s still here.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Has nobody been watching Miggy closing down 2 or 3 players on his own in the best pressing team in the league? I feel like I'm going mad

[Shadow Puppets]

Just now, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Has nobody been watching Miggy closing down 2 or 3 players on his own in the best pressing team in the league? I feel like I'm going mad

 

I know... there's some mental takes.

 

Almiron is one of the last people we should be thinking of getting rid of. Tremendous member of the squad.

[Dr.Spaceman]

Are people just confusing the term 'getting rid' and assuming lots wants him gone from the club rather than just the starting 11?

 

3 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Has nobody been watching Miggy closing down 2 or 3 players on his own in the best pressing team in the league? I feel like I'm going mad

 

Bit of an oxymoron that, isn't it 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Just now, Dr.Spaceman said:

Are people just confusing the term 'getting rid' and assuming lots wants him gone from the club rather than just the starting 11?

 

 

Bit of an oxymoron that, isn't it 

 

Not at all, he's a key part of the unit because of the amount of work he can do. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Anyway, it's the Barnes thread, not who should we sell. I don't believe we need to sell to buy, our FFP line has been a bit too successful. 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by AyeDubbleYoo

[Dr.Spaceman]

But we're only the best pressing side in the league because we do it together, as a team.

[The Prophet]

Can't speak for others but I'm not saying that we should be pushing Almiron out the door, just considering any offers if they were to come.

 

As we've seen pressing can be coached providing we buy players who buy into it.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

5 minutes ago, Dr.Spaceman said:

But we're only the best pressing side in the league because we do it together, as a team.

 

I know, with players who are very well suited to doing it

[TheBrownBottle]

1 hour ago, McCormick said:

If Miggy had a working right-foot and a footballing brain he wouldn’t have signed for us under Ashley

Tbf we signed some good players under Ashley.

 

Keeping them, training them, surrounding them with other good players was more of an issue  

[Matt1892]

32 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

You make a lot of good points, but there are two issues I see there;

 

1. We have enough absolute shite in our squad that need shifting, even just to get the wages off the books, before we look at the core 14-15 players who played the majority of minutes last season

 

2. If you sell Wilson for example, yeah you're bringing some money in but you're then committing yourself to bringing in a replacement which is going to cost money, so the gain is going to be fairly limited. There are enough weak spots within our squad that need addressing without creating another weak spot by selling someone who played a lot of minutes and scored a lot of goals.

 

Between them Miggy and Wilson played nearly 4,500 mins last season. Add in the extra European games and that's a lot of minutes that you're going to need to replace by selling those two.

I agree completely with you on point one, the problem with that is that I don’t think we could even give these players away let alone get any sort of fee for them. 
 

The biggest thing holding us back from the Ashley era as that we were taken over with very few saleable players. Even now after the season we have had you have ASM, Almiron, Wilson, Longstaff, Joelinton, Murphy and Schar. I’ve deliberately left Willock out of that due to him falling in the same FFP year as the takeover. 
 

Compare that to Chelsea who despite having a terrible season can sell £200 million of players without any issue, or Man City who have sold £50 million plus of youth players over the last 2 seasons who have had zero impact on the first team and it shows where our issue is.

 

As for Wilson, I think the questions will be around will he sign a new contract? How long would he want the deal to be for and how long realistically does he have at this level? Also, how is he going to react to being a bit part player as we should be building our attack around Isak as he is the future. If we stick with him and need to replace him in 2 years, we have to find that money from an already tight budget again.

 

I am not saying all of them should definitely be sold this summer by the way, what I am saying is there are restrictions put in place deliberately to stop us from progressing and the options are we sell to free up money to invest or we do it at a much slower pace, meaning we could be overtaken by the likes of Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea.

 

If the company did decide to sell ASM, Wilson and Almiron to fund a similar level of spending we have seen so far then I would be completely supportive of that.

[Cronky]

Yeah, the problem - if you can call it that - is that we went from relegation fodder to Champions League level in one bound. Normally, there would be a much longer transition period, during which the squad could be steadily upgraded by trading upwards on players as we went. As per during the earlier Keegan years, when players like Ruel Fox and Scott Sellars were brought in and then discarded as the team evolved.

 

It's all down to our manager. I hope our Saudi owners realise what we've got and don't take it for granted.

[Cookie1892]

i would be selling ASM to fund Barnes to be honest 

 

We also have to live with the fact that the likes of Bruno, Isak etc are now our biggest saleable assets and selling one or the other for 100m is likely to happen sooner rather than later

 

 

[TRon]

1 hour ago, The Prophet said:

Can't speak for others but I'm not saying that we should be pushing Almiron out the door, just considering any offers if they were to come.

 

As we've seen pressing can be coached providing we buy players who buy into it.

 

I think this is the important bit. Obviously we aren't going to sell key players just to get money in, but in reality we only have a handful of genuine world class players, and if there are players nearing the end of their peak/contract and we have identified replacements, then it's quite possible we could sell if we get a great price.

 

The way FFP is rigged, we probably don't have much option unless we want to tread water for a season or two.

[Max Cherry]

Or how about we don't sell our best players and continue to build our brand and sponsorships to fund our purchases? No way we sell Bruno unless it's to Real or Barca and he wants to go. You're never going to progress selling your best players, no matter how much the money is. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Need a title change now I think... the thank you but goodbye thread?

[Cookie1892]

8 minutes ago, Max Cherry said:

Or how about we don't sell our best players and continue to build our brand and sponsorships to fund our purchases? No way we sell Bruno unless it's to Real or Barca and he wants to go. You're never going to progress selling your best players, no matter how much the money is. 

 

In an ideal world everyone would agree but unfortunately we are going to have to in order to progress then we will eventually get to the stage that chelski and citeh are at but we have to sell to buy still unfortunately

[TRon]

8 minutes ago, Max Cherry said:

Or how about we don't sell our best players and continue to build our brand and sponsorships to fund our purchases? No way we sell Bruno unless it's to Real or Barca and he wants to go. You're never going to progress selling your best players, no matter how much the money is. 

 

Mind it's a big jump to considering selling ASM/Almiron to the likes of Bruno and Isak. The idea is to have a team of elite players at some point. The former aren't that, but the latter two clearly are.

[Gallowgate Toon]

City have been good at moving players on at the right time and we should do the same, we can't rely wholly on commercial improvement. I love Wilson and want to see him do his thing in Europe but I imagine if Pep was in charge he'd be looking to max his value now and bring in someone else.