Zero Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Infinitely Content said: Regarding shaping the team to suit him, I agree, but there's only so far that can go imo. I struggle to recall a striker who is both slow and physically weak make it in this league, especially nowadays as the physicality of the league has only increased. He's never going to be quick, so he needs a Joelinton-esque transformation in physicality imo. I don't think it's reasonable to expect us to always have players close to him, there's moments for all strikers where they're alone and either need to protect the ball better or use their skill and speed to beat defenders (Isak). He's not going to do the latter, so he needs to learn to protect the ball, and needs to be stronger to do so. I just want to point out that he isn’t slow. This is a massive misunderstanding. If he is slow he can’t dribble like that. Why is there always a bias towards tall players? Edited January 20 by Zero Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Zero said: I just want to point out that he isn’t slow. This is a massive misunderstanding. If he is slow he can’t dribble like that. Why is there always a bias towards tall players? In our last game the ref called a foul for a really clean tackle he made. There is a genuine bias against taller players even if they are technical and soft with challenges. He does need some fashion alterations though, it's not 2001 anymore. Edited January 20 by Mountain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitely Content Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 5 minutes ago, Zero said: I just want to point out that he isn’t slow. This is a massive misunderstanding. If he is slow he can’t dribble like that. Why is there always a bias towards tall players? What I mean is that strikers in this league tend to have either strength or speed as key attributes. You could say he has quick feet, but I don't think he's a quick player who is going to worry defenders in behind or threaten to knock the ball past them. I think that's pretty self-evident and isn't even a criticism really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 4 minutes ago, Infinitely Content said: What I mean is that strikers in this league tend to have either strength or speed as key attributes. You could say he has quick feet, but I don't think he's a quick player who is going to worry defenders in behind or threaten to knock the ball past them. I think that's pretty self-evident and isn't even a criticism really. I don't disagree but I think he will prove to be excellent despite those weaknesses. But our tactics are very unimaginative. Hopefully something changes regarding that. He's clearly a classy playmaker that we've been crying our for but we just play him up front with no support. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitely Content Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 I agree, the tactics are unimaginative and we could be so much more entertaining to watch with the players we have. However, to a certain extent, the tactics which appear to be a strong emphasis on wing play have been working at home at least hence our league position. But those same tactics certainly don't get the most out of Woltemade who I do think is a wonderful, gifted footballer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izakaya Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 2 hours ago, Mountain said: In our last game the ref called a foul for a really clean tackle he made. There is a genuine bias against taller players even if they are technical and soft with challenges. He does need some fashion alterations though, it's not 2001 anymore. AYE AREET GOK WAN Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nufcjb Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) For anyone suggesting we get our money back by selling him, what the fuck do we do then? It's not like we have another goalscorer in the team. We don't have strikers lining up to sign for us in any window either, we'll get rejected if there were any anyways so enlighten me what do we do after Bayern buy him for £50m+? Edited January 20 by nufcjb Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackyboy Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 I think that he has exceptional talent with the ball at his feet. He seems able to pick out a pass from really tight situations. I thought that with his height he would dominate in the air but he doesn't. He wins more defensive headers when we concede a corner than he does in an attacking situation. Because of his unusual attributes it must be difficult to fit him in to the team Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cf Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 16 hours ago, midds said: Refuse to believe we scouted him expensively and dropped £70m on him without having an idea as to where he was going to play or how he would be involved in games. I get the fact he's a natural number 10 but if he's being picked as a central 9 then he's got to understand that he needs to be on the penalty spot or 6 yard box far more often. I know that's not his natural game an he wants to drop deep and create but either Howe or the coaching team need to be very specific about what his role needs to be for the team atm. He's a mint player and a great guy but for the time being he needs to curb his instincts and become a converter - there are plenty of balls coming into the box and he needs to start finishing a few of them off. That's not a pop at him specifically but I can't remember a more frustrating season watching us slog away at deep defences and create virtually nothing of note, it's happened a dozen times already at least, mostly away. It's just not clicking and sadly doesn't look like doing so unless Howe changes things up top I'm not sure how much of this is really an us problem vs how much the rest of the league have realised how good a tactic defending deep can be when coached well. Hell we've been historically very good at it we've needed to be. There's probably a reason Arsenal score so many of their goals from set pieces and spend so much time passing the ball sideways. Just feels like this is the way the league is playing at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Parka Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Miggy would have loved wolte wouldn't he 😆 They'd be dynamite together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earp Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 17 hours ago, midds said: Refuse to believe we scouted him expensively and dropped £70m on him without having an idea as to where he was going to play or how he would be involved in games. I get the fact he's a natural number 10 but if he's being picked as a central 9 then he's got to understand that he needs to be on the penalty spot or 6 yard box far more often. I know that's not his natural game an he wants to drop deep and create but either Howe or the coaching team need to be very specific about what his role needs to be for the team atm. He's a mint player and a great guy but for the time being he needs to curb his instincts and become a converter - there are plenty of balls coming into the box and he needs to start finishing a few of them off. That's not a pop at him specifically but I can't remember a more frustrating season watching us slog away at deep defences and create virtually nothing of note, it's happened a dozen times already at least, mostly away. It's just not clicking and sadly doesn't look like doing so unless Howe changes things up top To be fair I think we forget how many games Isak was anonymous for us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 17 hours ago, midds said: Refuse to believe we scouted him expensively and dropped £70m on him without having an idea as to where he was going to play or how he would be involved in games. I get the fact he's a natural number 10 but if he's being picked as a central 9 then he's got to understand that he needs to be on the penalty spot or 6 yard box far more often. I know that's not his natural game an he wants to drop deep and create but either Howe or the coaching team need to be very specific about what his role needs to be for the team atm. He's a mint player and a great guy but for the time being he needs to curb his instincts and become a converter - there are plenty of balls coming into the box and he needs to start finishing a few of them off. That's not a pop at him specifically but I can't remember a more frustrating season watching us slog away at deep defences and create virtually nothing of note, it's happened a dozen times already at least, mostly away. It's just not clicking and sadly doesn't look like doing so unless Howe changes things up top We were only linked to him in late July/August for a reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Hope the Ruben Neves to Man Utd stories are bollocks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 13 hours ago, nufcjb said: For anyone suggesting we get our money back by selling him, what the fuck do we do then? It's not like we have another goalscorer in the team. We don't have strikers lining up to sign for us in any window either, we'll get rejected if there were any anyways so enlighten me what do we do after Bayern buy him for £50m+? I’m not advocating selling him, but if we did my suggestion would be we buy someone else. I’m old-fashioned that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 We need to do more for him, and he needs to start showing more, too. It’s not all one thing and not another. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexf Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) Think it's been clear for some time that the Bruno, Tonali, Joelinton midfield doesn't work. It may have done for a period. But things change, like Joelintons injuries catching up with him, and not having a unique and mobile deadly striker like Isak up top. When we set up with those three we just don't have enough technical ability in the side and also lack abit of dynamism. Bruno is doing all of our creative forward passes. Tonali has pace but is not an attacking player generally. I think this is hurting Nick, aswell as they way we are setting up our wingers. He takes some blame like not being on the end of some things he should and sometimes not being stronger but those things will develop with experience hopefully. Edited January 20 by alexf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFEE Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 1 hour ago, alexf said: Think it's been clear for some time that the Bruno, Tonali, Joelinton midfield doesn't work. It may have done for a period. But things change, like Joelintons injuries catching up with him, and not having a unique and mobile deadly striker like Isak up top. When we set up with those three we just don't have enough technical ability in the side and also lack abit of dynamism. Bruno is doing all of our creative forward passes. Tonali has pace but is not an attacking player generally. I think this is hurting Nick, aswell as they way we are setting up our wingers. He takes some blame like not being on the end of some things he should and sometimes not being stronger but those things will develop with experience hopefully. So because of Nick our midfield is not working and our wingers aren’t working? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 32 minutes ago, LFEE said: So because of Nick our midfield is not working and our wingers aren’t working? I’d contend that Joelinton - Tonali - Bruno has never worked well on a consistent basis, irrespective of who is up front. Joelinton has never been a particularly good midfielder - he operates much more effectively further forward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexf Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 39 minutes ago, LFEE said: So because of Nick our midfield is not working and our wingers aren’t working? No not just because of Nick. I'm saying despite it regularly being quoted as "possibly the best midfield in the league" by various pundits, It actually hasn't functioned aswell as was being perceived and the lack of creativity there was being papered over by us having (at the time) one of the best and most inform strikers on the planet. Isak had the athleticism to run in behind to stretch back lines and give the midfield more space, but he was also tidy in possession and was an ice cold finisher the majority of his time with us. This allowed for Joelinton and Tonali to be more like destroyers and not required to add much from an attacking perspective. But as I mentioned, loss in form, injuries etc also pays a part and now we have reached a point where having those three starting isn't as a effective as it might have been last season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 8 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said: We need to do more for him, and he needs to start showing more, too. It’s not all one thing and not another. Interestingly Howe gave that exact answer in the presser, only he put the emphasis the other way round (they need to do more, we need to help them more). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledGeordie Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I like the lad, I think he’ll continue to improve as he gets used to the league. I’m still not convinced though that he works in a 433 though, he’s just not that type of player (at the moment anyway). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikse Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 6 hours ago, alexf said: No not just because of Nick. I'm saying despite it regularly being quoted as "possibly the best midfield in the league" by various pundits, It actually hasn't functioned aswell as was being perceived and the lack of creativity there was being papered over by us having (at the time) one of the best and most inform strikers on the planet. Isak had the athleticism to run in behind to stretch back lines and give the midfield more space, but he was also tidy in possession and was an ice cold finisher the majority of his time with us. This allowed for Joelinton and Tonali to be more like destroyers and not required to add much from an attacking perspective. But as I mentioned, loss in form, injuries etc also pays a part and now we have reached a point where having those three starting isn't as a effective as it might have been last season. Said it many times, but we allways looked kind of meh last season when Isak was injured, or even just out of form. His form coincided with our form. When he was not fit, we looked more like what we do this season. Edited January 21 by Erikse Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 1 hour ago, Yorkie said: Interestingly Howe gave that exact answer in the presser, only he put the emphasis the other way round (they need to do more, we need to help them more). Genuinely hadn’t seen that! Me and Eddie man, great minds 😁 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 14 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: Genuinely hadn’t seen that! Me and Eddie man, great minds 😁 Well my point was that the emphasis is different. They need to stop playing like carthorses, was my read of the boss' words. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Our wingers also tend to either cross from before the 18 yard line or knock them in low when further forward. I reckon we'd see more success with his head if we had a Gillespie type winger getting deep and flinging them in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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