St James' Park

[christ]

Just now, nufcjb said:

Have the owners never been questioned on the stadium? I know they have mentioned the training ground and academy before. Weird if they have never been asked.

It’s something Staveley was interested in when she first wanted to buy the club. Had meetings with some architects about it iirc. 

[ponsaelius]

There's definitely a balancing act by making the capacity too big. You're banking on increased attendances linked to the team doing better on the pitch but I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I think fan attendance isn't anywhere nearly as linked to pure on pitch success as people think. Indeed if you become very successful a certain success apathy can set in - particularly if you're in a cavernous new ground that lacks atmosphere. I get that feeling at both Man City and particularly Arsenal at different levels of current success.

 

Add in making it harder to get to on a matchday and that can put off a lot of transient fans who are more likely to go because it's very easy to do so.

 

Don't get me wrong there's definitely room for expansion as currently people are essentially locked out every week - but you've got to be careful IMO.

[macphisto]

By the way, I think this discussion is a bit academic anyway as when push comes to shove, the city council would find somewhere for the ground either within the city centre or within walking distance. They have far too much to lose by the club moving out. I'm sure they'd also want to expand the ground as they would know it could pull in a lot of football tourists that would generate income city wide. The council is crying out for money and weekend visitors would help fill the gap, not to mention income from additional home support. I know football tourists are not everyone's cup of tea but they are part and parcel of the modern game and does help to grow the support.

[bowlingcrofty]

1 minute ago, ponsaelius said:

There's definitely a balancing act by making the capacity too big. You're banking on increased attendances linked to the team doing better on the pitch but I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I think fan attendance isn't anywhere nearly as linked to pure on pitch success as people think. Indeed if you become very successful a certain success apathy can set in - particularly if you're in a cavernous new ground that lacks atmosphere. I get that feeling at both Man City and particularly Arsenal at different levels of current success.

 

Add in making it harder to get to on a matchday and that can put off a lot of transient fans who are more likely to go because it's very easy to do so.

 

Don't get me wrong there's definitely room for expansion as currently people are essentially locked out every week - but you've got to be careful IMO.

Totally agree with this. Especially in the short term I think there will be a fair few who are struggling with rising cost of living.

 

I genuinely think 60k would be fine. If you look back to when we were in the CL under Bobby, most of the games didn’t sell out. There were 4k empty seats for the Juventus game, for example.

[macphisto]

32 minutes ago, HTT II said:

We won fuck all under KK, would anyone swap a League Cup win for that era? 

 

 

 

 

 

The sad thing is that none of us, apart from a very select few, can answer that question with  100% certainty as we don't know what it's like to win something. What a sad inditement on the club and even more reason for why I think our crowds could go through the roof as look at our crowds now when no one has seen us win a thing; no other club in Europe is like us.

 

I remember reading Fifty Years of Hurt in 2006, little did I know we would then have the pleasure of Ashley for 14 years

[Sima]

7 minutes ago, macphisto said:

By the way, I think this discussion is a bit academic anyway as when push comes to shove, the city council would find somewhere for the ground either within the city centre or within walking distance. They have far too much to lose by the club moving out. I'm sure they'd also want to expand the ground as they would know it could pull in a lot of football tourists that would generate income city wide. The council is crying out for money and weekend visitors would help fill the gap, not to mention income from additional home support. I know football tourists are not everyone's cup of tea but they are part and parcel of the modern game and does help to grow the support.

 

Agree with this, they'd let us build on Leazes Park if we wanted to.  I have absolutely no doubt about that.

[ponsaelius]

At the moment there's a massive buzz and excitement around the way things are going and everybody wants to be a part of it because we've been starved for so long. But it's all relative. If we become successful, CL every year, even if we're literally winning the league - these things then become normal and expected. You slip down slightly from that (like Arsenal for example) and suddenly people aren't getting what they expected and the interest wains and apathy grows. 20k empty seats is ugly - especially if you sold your soul and history to get there.

 

The thrill of football is so often in the chase for success and being part of that narrative, being part of momentum going the right way. That's what drives attendances, and particularly atmospheres, more than absolute on-pitch success IMO. 

[Dr Jinx]

Borussia Dortmund’s stadium sort of looks like if ours has been built properly.

[macphisto]

1 minute ago, ponsaelius said:

At the moment there's a massive buzz and excitement around the way things are going and everybody wants to be a part of it because we've been starved for so long. But it's all relative. If we become successful, CL every year, even if we're literally winning the league - these things then become normal and expected. You slip down slightly from that (like Arsenal for example) and suddenly people aren't getting what they expected and the interest wains and apathy grows. 20k empty seats is ugly - especially if you sold your soul and history to get there.

 

The thrill of football is so often in the chase for success and being part of that narrative, being part of momentum going the right way. That's what drives attendances, and particularly atmospheres, more than absolute on-pitch success IMO. 

It's a difficult to answer, I know where you're coming from as I remember when Robson got tremendous stick for missing out on the Champions League (I think it was for the Champions League) on the final day of the season.

 

What I would say is that we have a much higher supporter baseline than possibly any other team. I firmly believe that none of the others teams would get our crowds given our standard of football, Ashley ownership and lack of any silverware for over 50 years. I don't think it's just about us as supporters but rather that we aren't a one city team, more of a one region team. 

[Rafalove]

There are a few teams who would. Spurs were filling Wembley on the regular and they’ve won fuck all. West Ham have won even less and still fill the  Olympic stadium. Got to remember There are about 15-20 million people with in London and the southeast. Great transport links too. Then you have Manchester United and Liverpool. With huge fan base all over the country and even world. And the likes of Everton who have a large fan base in both Liverpool and north Wales.

[Wallsendmag]

4 hours ago, ponsaelius said:

Out of the city centre is problematic not just because of the loss of character but because transport would be an absolute nightmare. SJP's central location works great because it's so easy for 52k people to filter into and out of the city throughout the day via various forms of transport which naturally route towards the centre anyway. 

 

An out of town stadium, even on a metro stop, with acres of parking (don't think such a site even exists) and with regular direct shuttle buses, would be a nightmare because of the bottleneck of everybody travelling there direct along the same route at 2pm and leaving at 4:50pm. Even much smaller stadiums with much better transport links have this issue.

 

The city centre location is great for the businesses and economy of the city - and vice versa it has also propped up our attendances for years. The location is a major part of the club's character and I'm 100% sure it was one of the things that helped sell the club to Staveley et al. 

 

The ground could be expanded to around 60k in its current form which would be fine for now. Alternatively going back to the 90s plan and building on Castle Leazes while effectively extending Leazes Park down to Strawberry Place would be one of the few ways you could actually enhance the setting and the stadium all at the same time.

 

I'd only want a new stadium if it could be built within the city boundaries for the reasons you've mentioned and it would need a capacity of circa 70k.

 

If we could extend round the Gallowgate End to bring capacity to around 59k and maybe remodel the East Stand (as mentioned above), giving it a steeper rake without building out any/much further but adding a further 2k seats to that stand taking capacity up to around 61k that would be a good solution.

[macphisto]

5 minutes ago, Rafalove said:

There are a few teams who would. Spurs were filling Wembley on the regular and they’ve won fuck all. West Ham have won even less and still fill the  Olympic stadium. Got to remember There are about 15-20 million people with in London and the southeast. Great transport links too. Then you have Manchester United and Liverpool. With huge fan base all over the country and even world. And the likes of Everton who have a large fan base in both Liverpool and north Wales.

Spurs have won around 14 major domestic trophies since we last won the FA Cup. West Ham have won three domestic trophies since we last won a domestic trophy. You might think I'm scraping the barrel with West Ham's three trophies but their last one was in 1980, 25 years after our last win.

 

Difference with all the other teams is that they all have competition on their door step where kids can easily shift their support or households can be split in who they support. It's nowhere near the same as us in my opinion where we almost have a captured market ready to tap into. No doubt a lot of people in our region support other teams like Liverpool or Man U but they could be tempted back to a successful Newcastle as they don't have any other options in regards to watching a successful team in-person. 

 

 

[manorpark]

12 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said:

 

I'd only want a new stadium if it could be built within the city boundaries for the reasons you've mentioned and it would need a capacity of circa 70k.

 

 

If your criteria is "within the city boundaries" then that is a very large area that gives them a lot of scope. Somewhere near Newcastle Racecourse at Gosforth Park (for example) would be a relatively easy one to sort out, I would imagine.

 

Myself, I still prefer the City Centre. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by manorpark

[Wallsendmag]

29 minutes ago, Rafalove said:

There are a few teams who would. Spurs were filling Wembley on the regular and they’ve won fuck all. West Ham have won even less and still fill the  Olympic stadium. Got to remember There are about 15-20 million people with in London and the southeast. Great transport links too. Then you have Manchester United and Liverpool. With huge fan base all over the country and even world. And the likes of Everton who have a large fan base in both Liverpool and north Wales.

 

Spurs weren't filling Wembley like. They filled it a handful of times v the likes of Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool and they had times when very few turned up (29,000 v Watford). When we played them at Wembley the crowds were 54k and 41k respectively. They aren't even filling their new stadium, they've had a few recent sub 50k attendances.

[Wallsendmag]

2 minutes ago, manorpark said:

 

If your criteria is "within the city boundaries" then that is a very large area that gives them a lot of scope. Somewhere near Newcastle Racecourse at Gosforth Park (for example) would be a relatively easy one to sort out, I would imagine.

 

Myself, I still prefer the City Centre. 

 

 

 

 

Should have clarified myself better. Meant more the city centre boundaries (bad descriptionon my part). So basically get a map, stick your pencil where Greys Monument is, and from there within a max radius of 1/1.5 miles. Leaves the 2 obvious sites.

[DMLeazesender]

9 hours ago, macphisto said:

Not pulling you up over this, just curious with the development in that area. Is the ground still visible?

 

I guess it depends on which way you are coming from, certainly get a good view as you drive in from Walker along riverside route but get your general point.

[Guest HTT II]

By the way, it’s so encouraging now that we can at least realistically discuss the thought of expanding SJP or even moving to a whole new site and a whole new stadium, the sky really is the limit and ultimately, regardless of my own thoughts, wherever is best for the club, the team and the fans together should always be the main priority and I’d trust our new owners to do what’s best going forward for the right reasons.
 

I don’t think whatever we do in the next 5 + years will be a vanity project on and off the field, even when it comes to new signings. I do believe PIF will want a few marquee signings along the way, but I don’t think it will be done willy nilly without any afterthought in relation to the team, the manager and their collective goals. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by HTT II

[madras]

1 hour ago, bowlingcrofty said:

Totally agree with this. Especially in the short term I think there will be a fair few who are struggling with rising cost of living.

 

I genuinely think 60k would be fine. If you look back to when we were in the CL under Bobby, most of the games didn’t sell out. There were 4k empty seats for the Juventus game, for example.

Weren't the front couple of rows out of use in Champs league games then for their advertising ? And we don't have a perfect radius to draw support from given proximity to the North sea and some people might haver died that week

[et tu brute]

4 hours ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

This is what I mean by the misplaced sense of progress. You really need to be careful what you wish for. You might just find that the things you're willing to sacrifice were actually an essential part of your identity as a Newcastle supporter and the club's identity all along. And by the time you realise something's missing, it'll be too late.

 

Preserving the club's history and uniqueness is as essential to me as a grade 1 listed building is. It really blows my mind that so many are willing to disregard it to potentially become yet another cookie cutter club with a cookie cutter stadium, especially considering the other fanbases who've done the same and now hate it (Arsenal, West Ham, Spurs)

I stick by my comments, of course I respect your opinion. 

[Ben]

I totally agree with everyone wanting to stay at the current location however the council need to be fully on board and should back the club 100% for the shear amount of income it generates for the city center 

[Kanj]

I'll support whatever it is that allows for more match going fans if the demand is there, and whatever it takes to continue to help take this club on to the next level. 

[Kanj]

What I'll add to that is, yes - I prefer to stick in our current stadium and I hope there are ways we can creatively expand on our current site or (expensively) acquire adjacent land/buildings to do so. I'd also be in favor of the failed move reboot provided our current home became something that stood in the city centre and provided good for the community in exchange and maintained its name. 

 

But overall, as a football club we will need to realize that our owners are aiming for us to be the best club in football - so there are some things we may need to sacrifice if they feel it's within the business plan to achieve that result. As long as that is communicated to us and we see results, I'm all for it. 

[Wolfcastle]

I felt a tinge of coldnes when KK talked about needing to move to a new stadium at the end of 95/96 and when the plans came out but find it harder now. SJP as was then had only been complete a year prior and only the East Stand was recognisable from 10years earlier.

The distinctive nature of the grounds symetrics and steepness now will be a huge wrench. I actually hope they would replicate that in a new stadium rather than samey feel of most of the other ones.

 

Is another tier on the Milburn out? Think that plus a Gallowgate extension, East Stand remodel and maybe have the East Stand/Leazes corner brought up to Leazes height  could be in the region of 65k+.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Wolfcastle

[Guest HTT II]

Didn’t someone come up with a feasible idea where we could flip the stadium to increase capacity?

[Superior Acuña]

SJP's location is a thing of beauty and would be a real tragedy for the club and city for it to move out of town. Like others maybe I could abide a shift directly adjacent, but otherwise nothing is worth losing the ground.