Next signing an experienced centre-half for 'free' (Chronicle)

[ohmelads]

@ohmelads (and prior to the traditional five-minute later "edit")

 

Fantastic debating again, completely missing the major points and picking two things out at random for a bit of "tit for tat". Utter waste of time, man.

 

Not sure saying there might not be money available because of the "strategic review", multi-million pound company being completely bought out by one investor during the transfer window, potential previous mess/debts left by the last board (not just Shepherd) is entirely simplistic, in all honesty. Certainly scratches the surface a bit more than saying "we never spend money on the defence".

 

People could point to £9M for Woodgate, £8M for Boumsong, etc. (and have done in the past.)

 

If the money isn't there... surely it couldn't be simply because Ashley/Mort aren't comfortable releasing millions upon millions while they decided what route to go with the football club/earmark how much investment is needed? Surely they're not looking at our wage bill and thinking "Jesus Christ, we might need to get this down to a suitable operating level" before we bring in any more massive earners?

 

Do people honestly think we're that much worse off than we were this time last year under an arguably worse manager with worse injuries, a European campaign to comprehend, a lot of bad feeling around the club because of the chairman, etc?

 

I understand some people are looking at West Ham and Man City and thinking "Hmmmm, that looks exciting!", but am I alone in being fairly glad that we seem to be doing things in a bit more of a patient and measured way? Do I need to remind people again that there are 32 days left for transfers to be conducted and that every player we've brought in is arguably better than the one's that they've replaced?

 

I'm sure there are various factors behind the lack of money. It might be the review or the need to reduce the wage budget, we might be waiting to bring in a DoF or it might simply be because Mort is new to this industry and wants to know where he's putting Ashley's money. Truth is we don't know. You don't know and I don't know.

 

Rather than speculate pointlessly all day about things we don't know (or "missing your points" as you call it), I've voiced my frustration over those things which I do know. You're right, I won't bother wasting my time.

[NE5]

I'll have until at least September 1st 2008, if that's alright.

 

Shepherd had a decade here to get things right, and he didn't start losing me until towards the very end despite some serious ups and downs along the way. In fact, with him bringing Allardyce in he'd as good as won me round again to the point where I didn't mind him having one final roll of the dice on his terms (but bear in mind my complete ignorance of the financial side of things, which some say were getting very worrying.)

 

Ashley's had about a month here, hasn't yet done anything to be majorly criticised for (outside of what's been speculated) and I haven't got an opinion either way on him just yet.

 

Surely that's fair enough?

 

As I said, but having a board who's manager is coming out in the press and saying "they know nothing about football" doesn't look too good does it ?

 

I didn't expect Ashley to bankroll the club, unlike others, but this could be a bad situation. They have got to wise up, and you have to face the real possibility that they may not have the ambition you thought they would. Time will tell.

 

 

I don't have any preconceptions about them, that's the whole point. I didn't buy into this "£50M budget", "unlimited fee for a megastar" stuff and I don't buy into the fact that Allardyce is now getting nothing. I can understand people getting twitchy with the lack of activity, but from the looks of it things are certainly not being missed out on because of the want of trying. As you say, time will tell.

 

I do see your concerns about their lack of football knowledge and it's obviously the case otherwise Allardyce wouldn't have said it, but I'm not sure what else we expected? Was Shepherd too ill to be of any real use to them in the early stages? Did they discover some things on his part that were unforgivable enough to get shot of him straight away? Did he want to help them anyway? We don't know the full story, as always, which is a fucking killer on here.

 

If I can speculate on a personal level: to me it seems like David Dein would have been their ideal solution to this problem because of his knowledge and it certainly seems like they've been forced into biting off more than they can chew on a personal level (especially Mort) after this didn't come off... and also that Big Sam might be doing the jobs of a "DOF" and a manager at the moment. Something, which if true, will obviously need resolving sooner rather than later - but on both Sam and the board's terms, not just one or the other.

 

This obviously shows that I do have personal concerns about things, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I know better than those involved at the club currently and I certainly don't know what they do about the takeover/finances/etc.

 

I can appreciate, however, that the changes we've seen/will see are absolutely massive and will perhaps eclipse anything we've seen before at this club, yourself included. All we can really do is hope for the best for now.

 

The optimism I feel is solely down to Allardyce. The board have done absolutely nothing yet. I hope they do. If they don't do any more, or generate more money, than the old board, what then ? If they don't back him so much, what then ? Face facts, so far they haven't shown much inclination. They know nowt about football, that in itself is pretty damning. You don't have to know anything about football to know that you need to back your managers if you want success and get among the money, if thats his objective.

 

I've no doubt that there has been some changes, and will be more, but at the moment they appear to be Allardyce inspired ones, unless he goes.

 

 

I've never been one of your critics, mate, but as Gemmill says you're coming across as fucking desperate to whip out the "I told you so!" posts at the minute. It's not on from somebody who has always apparently had the best interests of the club at heart. To me it seems like you're putting being "right" above wanting this new regime to work. You're ignoring all of the sensible counter-points that people are making about it being early days and about things going on that we can't possibly know about/comprehend and sticking to your party line of "Shepherd good, Ashley probably bad". It's not debating, it's ramming your beliefs down people's throats and praying to God that they're proven right.

 

I've already agreed with you on the footballing knowledge thing and I offered you some material which you've completely ignored, I've admitted that I can see why people are becoming concerned and I've said that I can understand, to an extent, some of the opinions that you and Baggio and others have. But you have to admit that you're all being extremely quick to judge here after all the changes that have just happened. It's not going to be an overnight solution.

 

People are also VERY quick to forget that this time last year we were in exactly the same boat under Freddy Shepherd and Glenn Roeder. Ashley and Allardyce are going to have to go some fucking distance to top Duff, Martins, Rossi, Sibierski and Bernard for dealings this summer after losing Shearer, Bowyer, Faye, Boumsong and Chopra from the first team squad. What was our net spend last summer, by the way? £7.5M according to NUFC.com, and that was with European football as well!

 

It sounds very familiar to me so far this summer, albeit last summer we didn't have the club being taken over during the window. Although with over a month of transfers still remaining, we've already brought in two more players than we had by this time last year and seem to be making breakthroughs in other departments as well. And it's only July!

 

This tit-for-tat stuff is a piece of piss, like.

 

I suppose you're alright though because it's win-win with your current stance, if you genuinely do want some success under Ashley. If it goes tits-up you can revel in your glory of telling people "so" and if it goes the way we all hope it does then you can revel in the club's glory, with the rest of us. Great stuff.

 

Genuinely want success ? I haven't supported the club for 40 years without genuinely wanting success ! Of course I want success.

 

I sold my shares to Ashley.

 

Last summer, we suffered due to Souness spunking so much money. The board pushed the boat out last summer, because they had to. Yet still some people criticised their spending, probably the same people who defended Souness' spending spree.

 

This summer, it is different. We have new owners. He is a rich man. I have said I don't expect him to spend his own money, I've posted that a few times. I only want him to back the manager. I dont' consider a financial review to be a hindrance to this. There are only 2 times a season where you can buy players, this is one of them and there is only a month left of it. You don't have to understand football to understand this. You don't have to understand football to know that an investment now, if you own the club, will pay in the long run if it is spent well, whether there is a financial review going on or not.

 

Also - the fact about this spending review, is this : WHO EXACTLY ON THE BOARD HAS SAID THAT THIS REVIEW IS THE REASON WE HAVE NOT BOUGHT THE PLAYERS WE NEED SO BADLY AND BACK THE MANAGER ?

 

Nobody.

 

Only people on here are saying this. Why are they saying it ? I'll tell you why, its because they want it to be true. As a matter of fact, so do I. I don't however believe that putting forward the possibility that it is in fact the way they intend to run the club to be so bad. Whats wrong with putting that point forward ? I'm not actually "defending" or "attacking" any of the old or new board at all. Its only people who say this is wrong - despite nobody from the club saying anything to the contrary - who are defending the new board.

 

The managers comments have to be taken on face value I'm afraid, like it or not, he isn't happy with his board just now.

 

Ashley has spent 200m quid buying the club and clearing the stadium debt, I'm aware of that. But he knew this, and still took it on. If he's not prepared to put in a bit more to get the club moving in the right direction then we should realise this, and understand it. I'm pointing this out, its a bit of a shame if people don't like it, but it just might be correct.

 

 

[NE5]

I'll have until at least September 1st 2008, if that's alright.

 

Shepherd had a decade here to get things right, and he didn't start losing me until towards the very end despite some serious ups and downs along the way. In fact, with him bringing Allardyce in he'd as good as won me round again to the point where I didn't mind him having one final roll of the dice on his terms (but bear in mind my complete ignorance of the financial side of things, which some say were getting very worrying.)

 

Ashley's had about a month here, hasn't yet done anything to be majorly criticised for (outside of what's been speculated) and I haven't got an opinion either way on him just yet.

 

Surely that's fair enough?

 

As I said, but having a board who's manager is coming out in the press and saying "they know nothing about football" doesn't look too good does it ?

 

I didn't expect Ashley to bankroll the club, unlike others, but this could be a bad situation. They have got to wise up, and you have to face the real possibility that they may not have the ambition you thought they would. Time will tell.

 

 

I don't have any preconceptions about them, that's the whole point. I didn't buy into this "£50M budget", "unlimited fee for a megastar" stuff and I don't buy into the fact that Allardyce is now getting nothing. I can understand people getting twitchy with the lack of activity, but from the looks of it things are certainly not being missed out on because of the want of trying. As you say, time will tell.

 

I do see your concerns about their lack of football knowledge and it's obviously the case otherwise Allardyce wouldn't have said it, but I'm not sure what else we expected? Was Shepherd too ill to be of any real use to them in the early stages? Did they discover some things on his part that were unforgivable enough to get shot of him straight away? Did he want to help them anyway? We don't know the full story, as always, which is a f****** killer on here.

 

If I can speculate on a personal level: to me it seems like David Dein would have been their ideal solution to this problem because of his knowledge and it certainly seems like they've been forced into biting off more than they can chew on a personal level (especially Mort) after this didn't come off... and also that Big Sam might be doing the jobs of a "DOF" and a manager at the moment. Something, which if true, will obviously need resolving sooner rather than later - but on both Sam and the board's terms, not just one or the other.

 

This obviously shows that I do have personal concerns about things, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I know better than those involved at the club currently and I certainly don't know what they do about the takeover/finances/etc.

 

I can appreciate, however, that the changes we've seen/will see are absolutely massive and will perhaps eclipse anything we've seen before at this club, yourself included. All we can really do is hope for the best for now.

 

The optimism I feel is solely down to Allardyce. The board have done absolutely nothing yet. I hope they do. If they don't do any more, or generate more money, than the old board, what then ? If they don't back him so much, what then ? Face facts, so far they haven't shown much inclination. They know nowt about football, that in itself is pretty damning. You don't have to know anything about football to know that you need to back your managers if you want success and get among the money, if thats his objective.

 

I've no doubt that there has been some changes, and will be more, but at the moment they appear to be Allardyce inspired ones, unless he goes.

 

 

 

"they know nowt about football" Where is your evidence of this?

Leazes likes to back the old board, just as he liked to back Souness. When he is wrong he either twists things or talks utter s****. In this case its a bit of both. Don't ask for facts or evidence though. They wont be fothcoming.

 

you like to knock the old board, just like your stupid friends  mackems.gif

 

BTW, I've posted plenty of facts in the form of league positions, qualifications for europe, attendances, signings made in comparison to their predecessors. But just continue to ignore them like all the others on toontastic, including some of your friends who backed Sounes right to the end, and STILL think his changes left the club better off.

 

Just don't tell anyone that such an opinion makes you "intelligent" though  mackems.gif the proof that we are not, is in the FACTUAL league positions

 

I know who you are on there anyway. Your venom and the fact you like following me around, is a compliment in itself. 

 

 

 

 

Flattery gets you everywhere Leazes. Of course league positions count. In Freddies time we showed instability in the league. We finished in the lower half as often as the top half. Not exactly flattering to the fella is it?

You backed both Souness and Roeder. On that basis your logic is flawed.

 

I made hundreds of posts saying I didn't want Souness from the day he joined to the day he left. I am pleased you think that qualifying for europe more times than everybody bar 4 in a decade is "instability". I take it you would prefer to finish 9th every season for 10 years and have precisely nothing ? That in itself was "success" to the board who the Halls and Shepherd replaced. If you really are the "long term" supporter you claim to be, you wouldn't even be stupid enough to discuss this.

 

Such stupidity confirms where you spend most of your time, and where you belong.

 

 

[STM]

Penny pinching in defence again. Will this club ever learn?

 

Looking at the defence we put out against Juventus I think it'd be an understatement to say we need some investment in that area. If you believe we're targetting freebies purely because they're the right people for the job then good for you, but I think it's because the money isn't there and we're getting whatever we can, a view backed up by practically all of Allardyce's comments over the last couple of weeks ("can't guarantee quality but ill get some numbers in", "targets are disappearing rapidly", "missed out on loads of players recently", "clubs like fulham are spending much more than us", "I need to convince the new owners to spend and quickly" etc etc etc).

 

Fair enough, but you've yet again completely ignored the relevant points that numerous people have made about the very recent takeover, the club's debt, the difficulty we might be having attracting players, etc.

 

It's a waste of time looking at things on such a simplistic level, man. Ashley de-listed the club 12 days ago and alright, we might not have money in the immediate short-term while this infamous "review" is undertaken and while things are sorted out from top-to-bottom (I notice the board are backing Allardyce's backroom rebuilding plans, which won't be exactly "cheap" and which people seem to completely be ignoring while they claim he's going to be forced out.)

 

Where is it written that you absolutely positively need to spend big, solid money to do well/build a solid foundation?

 

Surely you can appreciate it that it might take more than 12 days (or a month or two at the most since they started buying shares/taking full control) to come in and decided what route to take a multi-million pound business. As Gemmill said, it's unfortunate that it's happened in the summer and it's perhaps "unfortunate" that the likes of Man City don't seem to be suffering the same problems, but perhaps they're not doing things the right way and we are.

 

How many of us were calling for a massive upheaval at this football club just a few short months ago?

 

Well we're getting it and people still aren't f****** happy because we're not doing that AND spending millions at the same time.

 

Beggars belief and shows us up as supporters.

 

Call it simplistic if you want but it's equally simplistic to assume more money couldn't have been provided, or to assume that we haven't signed players simply because none want to come to Newcastle. Cheap dig tbh.

 

I haven't ignored the points made about the takeover or the club's debt, I've chosen to comment on actual quotes from the manager and facts such as the minimal spending on defence which goes back years at this club and the very limited options we have less than 2 weeks before the season's opener.

 

I didn't say we need to spend big.

 

Apologies if you think a bit of healthy scepticism shows you up as a supporter. I'll be as happy as the next man if I see us signing good defenders, but making excuses for the board without knowing any of the circumstances is pointless IMO.

 

Agree with this, not spending on defenders will just push us further behind.

 

But we are going to buy defenders. Mort, Ashley and Sam aren't stupid enough to let this window close without us at least getting the numbers in.

 

It's a myth that you need to spend big on defenders though. Look at Rozehnal (so far). If he keeps it up it's a hell of a buy for peanuts.

 

Agreed. I think there is alot of worrying going on a little to early. Obviously we need defenders but if there is anyone who i trust to get them in it is Allardyce, money or no money.

 

Nothing worse than blind faith, you sound as bad as the Villa fans with their "MON the saviour" bollocks.

 

Yes there is, consistent pessimism. Your getting all hot and bothered because we kick off in two weeks and we haven't got a left back in yet. How many times has he come out and said we need new defenders? Yet for some reason you think your complaints stand out above everyone elses and are making a difference.

 

He knows his football, he also knows about the problems that our club has. So why not let him get on with his job FFS. When we kick off then you can up your complaints.

[Rich]

@ohmelads (and prior to the traditional five-minute later "edit")

 

Fantastic debating again, completely missing the major points and picking two things out at random for a bit of "tit for tat". Utter waste of time, man.

 

Not sure saying there might not be money available because of the "strategic review", multi-million pound company being completely bought out by one investor during the transfer window, potential previous mess/debts left by the last board (not just Shepherd) is entirely simplistic, in all honesty. Certainly scratches the surface a bit more than saying "we never spend money on the defence".

 

People could point to £9M for Woodgate, £8M for Boumsong, etc. (and have done in the past.)

 

If the money isn't there... surely it couldn't be simply because Ashley/Mort aren't comfortable releasing millions upon millions while they decided what route to go with the football club/earmark how much investment is needed? Surely they're not looking at our wage bill and thinking "Jesus Christ, we might need to get this down to a suitable operating level" before we bring in any more massive earners?

 

Do people honestly think we're that much worse off than we were this time last year under an arguably worse manager with worse injuries, a European campaign to comprehend, a lot of bad feeling around the club because of the chairman, etc?

 

I understand some people are looking at West Ham and Man City and thinking "Hmmmm, that looks exciting!", but am I alone in being fairly glad that we seem to be doing things in a bit more of a patient and measured way? Do I need to remind people again that there are 32 days left for transfers to be conducted and that every player we've brought in is arguably better than the one's that they've replaced?

 

I'm sure there are various factors behind the lack of money. It might be the review or the need to reduce the wage budget, we might be waiting to bring in a DoF or it might simply be because Mort is new to this industry and wants to know where he's putting Ashley's money. Truth is we don't know. You don't know and I don't know.

 

Rather than speculate pointlessly all day about things we don't know (or "missing your points" as you call it), I've voiced my frustration over those things which I do know. You're right, I won't bother wasting my time.

 

I have never claimed to know about this, much like I never claim to "know" about anything else. Everything that is debated on here is usually based on nothing more than speculation - sometimes speculation of the worst kind. But I'm not the one jumping to conclusions and worrying about speculation, like you are.

 

You claim to "know" that we're not going to spend money on the defence, when I could easily point to the speculated £6-7M bid we recently had accepted for a Premiership defender, only for us to be turned down. So the truth is, that you don't "know" at all what the financial side of things is like and for all you "know" this mooted story about the centre-half could be utter bollocks from Oliver, again.

 

Take a step back and realise how daft your previous post now looks, when you've jumped to a steadfast conclusion ("Penny-pinching in defence again. Will this club ever learn?") based upon a sentence in an Alan Oliver article which starts with "I believe..." and then criticised me for speculating about things that I don't "know".

 

If you do "know" that this is true and that we are, in fact, penny-pinching on the defence then I apologise. But to me it seems like you're pointlessly speculating on something that you can't have any sure knowledge of at all... aside from what Alan Oliver has written.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at here? Awfully contradictory from what I can see.

[Baggio]

Penny pinching in defence again. Will this club ever learn?

 

Looking at the defence we put out against Juventus I think it'd be an understatement to say we need some investment in that area. If you believe we're targetting freebies purely because they're the right people for the job then good for you, but I think it's because the money isn't there and we're getting whatever we can, a view backed up by practically all of Allardyce's comments over the last couple of weeks ("can't guarantee quality but ill get some numbers in", "targets are disappearing rapidly", "missed out on loads of players recently", "clubs like fulham are spending much more than us", "I need to convince the new owners to spend and quickly" etc etc etc).

 

Fair enough, but you've yet again completely ignored the relevant points that numerous people have made about the very recent takeover, the club's debt, the difficulty we might be having attracting players, etc.

 

It's a waste of time looking at things on such a simplistic level, man. Ashley de-listed the club 12 days ago and alright, we might not have money in the immediate short-term while this infamous "review" is undertaken and while things are sorted out from top-to-bottom (I notice the board are backing Allardyce's backroom rebuilding plans, which won't be exactly "cheap" and which people seem to completely be ignoring while they claim he's going to be forced out.)

 

Where is it written that you absolutely positively need to spend big, solid money to do well/build a solid foundation?

 

Surely you can appreciate it that it might take more than 12 days (or a month or two at the most since they started buying shares/taking full control) to come in and decided what route to take a multi-million pound business. As Gemmill said, it's unfortunate that it's happened in the summer and it's perhaps "unfortunate" that the likes of Man City don't seem to be suffering the same problems, but perhaps they're not doing things the right way and we are.

 

How many of us were calling for a massive upheaval at this football club just a few short months ago?

 

Well we're getting it and people still aren't f****** happy because we're not doing that AND spending millions at the same time.

 

Beggars belief and shows us up as supporters.

 

Call it simplistic if you want but it's equally simplistic to assume more money couldn't have been provided, or to assume that we haven't signed players simply because none want to come to Newcastle. Cheap dig tbh.

 

I haven't ignored the points made about the takeover or the club's debt, I've chosen to comment on actual quotes from the manager and facts such as the minimal spending on defence which goes back years at this club and the very limited options we have less than 2 weeks before the season's opener.

 

I didn't say we need to spend big.

 

Apologies if you think a bit of healthy scepticism shows you up as a supporter. I'll be as happy as the next man if I see us signing good defenders, but making excuses for the board without knowing any of the circumstances is pointless IMO.

 

Agree with this, not spending on defenders will just push us further behind.

 

But we are going to buy defenders. Mort, Ashley and Sam aren't stupid enough to let this window close without us at least getting the numbers in.

 

It's a myth that you need to spend big on defenders though. Look at Rozehnal (so far). If he keeps it up it's a hell of a buy for peanuts.

 

Agreed. I think there is alot of worrying going on a little to early. Obviously we need defenders but if there is anyone who i trust to get them in it is Allardyce, money or no money.

 

Nothing worse than blind faith, you sound as bad as the Villa fans with their "MON the saviour" bollocks.

 

Yes there is, consistent pessimism. Your getting all hot and bothered because we kick off in two weeks and we haven't got a left back in yet. How many times has he come out and said we need new defenders? Yet for some reason you think your complaints stand out above everyone elses and are making a difference.

 

He knows his football, he also knows about the problems that our club has. So why not let him get on with his job FFS. When we kick off then you can up your complaints.

 

There's a difference between getting anyone in to make up the numbers and getting someone in who's a big improvement on Babayaro, which is what we should be aiming for.

 

You came out with a quote yesterday like "In Sam I trust" like you're some kind of fucking sheep with no opinion of your own.

[fredbob]

People are ridiculously impatient, i cant understand what people are giving Ashley such a hard time, he has just spent £150m on this club, and i cant seem to find a single quote which suggests that money isnt available, quite the contrary to be fair, all i seem to be hearing is SA complaining that the player we are targetting are going elswhere, and he does seems to be targetting a lot a players, this to me suggests that we are being slow in the market, i dont think it makes business sense paying way over the odds JUST to get the player you're after, thats historically what we do. Add to that mix that we have a new chairman who doesnt know the ropes too well then you're bound to come short somewhere, the difference with SA, is that he seems to be targetting the players that we defineltey need, and have needed for yearsie 4 defenders, you look back to the old regime/regimes and you get inactivity due to incompeent managers, and poor charimanship. I dont really remember such a concerted effort to get a new lb or rb in such a long time.

[Guest Verlaine]

I saw Alan Oliver in London on Thursday.

Penny pinching in defence again. Will this club ever learn?

 

Looking at the defence we put out against Juventus I think it'd be an understatement to say we need some investment in that area. If you believe we're targetting freebies purely because they're the right people for the job then good for you, but I think it's because the money isn't there and we're getting whatever we can, a view backed up by practically all of Allardyce's comments over the last couple of weeks ("can't guarantee quality but ill get some numbers in", "targets are disappearing rapidly", "missed out on loads of players recently", "clubs like fulham are spending much more than us", "I need to convince the new owners to spend and quickly" etc etc etc).

 

Fair enough, but you've yet again completely ignored the relevant points that numerous people have made about the very recent takeover, the club's debt, the difficulty we might be having attracting players, etc.

 

It's a waste of time looking at things on such a simplistic level, man. Ashley de-listed the club 12 days ago and alright, we might not have money in the immediate short-term while this infamous "review" is undertaken and while things are sorted out from top-to-bottom (I notice the board are backing Allardyce's backroom rebuilding plans, which won't be exactly "cheap" and which people seem to completely be ignoring while they claim he's going to be forced out.)

 

Where is it written that you absolutely positively need to spend big, solid money to do well/build a solid foundation?

 

Surely you can appreciate it that it might take more than 12 days (or a month or two at the most since they started buying shares/taking full control) to come in and decided what route to take a multi-million pound business. As Gemmill said, it's unfortunate that it's happened in the summer and it's perhaps "unfortunate" that the likes of Man City don't seem to be suffering the same problems, but perhaps they're not doing things the right way and we are.

 

How many of us were calling for a massive upheaval at this football club just a few short months ago?

 

Well we're getting it and people still aren't f****** happy because we're not doing that AND spending millions at the same time.

 

Beggars belief and shows us up as supporters.

 

Call it simplistic if you want but it's equally simplistic to assume more money couldn't have been provided, or to assume that we haven't signed players simply because none want to come to Newcastle. Cheap dig tbh.

 

I haven't ignored the points made about the takeover or the club's debt, I've chosen to comment on actual quotes from the manager and facts such as the minimal spending on defence which goes back years at this club and the very limited options we have less than 2 weeks before the season's opener.

 

I didn't say we need to spend big.

 

Apologies if you think a bit of healthy scepticism shows you up as a supporter. I'll be as happy as the next man if I see us signing good defenders, but making excuses for the board without knowing any of the circumstances is pointless IMO.

 

Agree with this, not spending on defenders will just push us further behind.

 

But we are going to buy defenders. Mort, Ashley and Sam aren't stupid enough to let this window close without us at least getting the numbers in.

 

It's a myth that you need to spend big on defenders though. Look at Rozehnal (so far). If he keeps it up it's a hell of a buy for peanuts.

 

Agreed. I think there is alot of worrying going on a little to early. Obviously we need defenders but if there is anyone who i trust to get them in it is Allardyce, money or no money.

 

Nothing worse than blind faith, you sound as bad as the Villa fans with their "MON the saviour" bollocks.

 

Yes there is, consistent pessimism. Your getting all hot and bothered because we kick off in two weeks and we haven't got a left back in yet. How many times has he come out and said we need new defenders? Yet for some reason you think your complaints stand out above everyone elses and are making a difference.

 

He knows his football, he also knows about the problems that our club has. So why not let him get on with his job FFS. When we kick off then you can up your complaints.

 

There's a difference between getting anyone in to make up the numbers and getting someone in who's a big improvement on Babayaro, which is what we should be aiming for.

 

You came out with a quote yesterday like "In Sam I trust" like you're some kind of f****** sheep with no opinion of your own.

 

In all fairness, I think you're falling into the trap of claiming someone is incapable of thinking for themselves when, in reality, they just disagree with you.

[ohmelads]

Janitor...

 

I'm concerned at a lack of spending. I know that we haven't spent much in defence. Of course I don't know how much we will spend, but I do know what Allardyce has been saying in recent weeks with regard to this very subject. Therefore, my concern is based on quotes (which I know) and a lack of spending thus far (which I know). So don't you think I have a fair basis for this concern? I've voiced these concerns regardless of the circumstances which have led to a lack of spending, of which none of us know.

 

I'll give you the penny-pinching remark, perhaps I can't make that until Sept 1st, but I stand by everything else I've said in this thread. If you think they're daft that's your opinion, I'm not going to hold it against you.

[Optimistic Nut]

Ask me September 1st.

 

of course.

 

Simple fact is though, with reference to your last post, Dalglish never made noises about not being backed etc etc did he ? It seems to me that the only people making excuses is those people who thought anybody would be better than the Halls and Shepherd, and are now defending and making excuses for the new board.

 

Privately, you must be wondering if they are going to back their manager, but having took the view in the past that it wasn't so important, you maybe aren't so bothered.

 

As you say time will tell. If you aren't worried, by what Allardyce has been saying, and the possibility that he might bugger off through feeling let down by the board, you should be.

 

I have have seen this happen before at Newcastle, and believe me I don't want to see it happen again

 

 

Didn't Keegan nearly walk out on the club after about a month because the board wouldn't buy him Brian Kilcline? Not long after that (within 5 months actually), we'd spent over £1.5m on the likes of Beresford, Bracewell, Venison & Lee (which was a helluva lot of money for a Division One club who'd just survived relegation).

[chicago_shearer]

When will he ever tell the truth!?

 

That would probably be: 'It is my understanding that following the departure of Freddy Shepherd I have become a complete irrelevance.  I know longer have any meaningful access to the club, making it difficult to speculate on matters of which I have no insight or understanding.  Anything I subsequently con an editor into printing is therefore wide of the mark.'

[Rich]

NE5, I fear you've just dug yourself a hole that is going to be fairly hard to climb out of.

 

On Ashley not spending his "own" money...

 

What if the club has no money, though? We finished 14th, we have not qualified for Europe, our wage bill is astronomical, the season tickets have not all been sold. If this was Freddy Shepherd in control on July 30th 2007 and we'd brought in Viduka, Geremi, Barton and Rozehnal for the players (wasters) that we released/sold am I completely "wide of the mark" in thinking you'd currently be defending him to the hilt?

 

Now, I do understand that in this alternate universe some of the same people who are defending the new board might well be castigating Freddy by now, despite there being 32 days of the transfer window remaining. I know it's not just you in this ongoing "Shepherd" thing, it takes more than one to tango, but hear me out.

 

Why is it so different now that it is Mike Ashley and Chris Mort running the club? Apparently, none of you have "agendas" for/against the previous board (hoho), but would I be entirely wrong to say that today, if Shepherd was still here, that some of you in this debate would be doing exactly the same as you are now, albeit on opposite sides of the divide?

 

If Shepherd was still here and there was no money left in the coffers because of Souness or whoever would you be currently complaining about the board not backing the manager? What makes it so different now, if you don't want Ashley to spend his own money? Surely if it is purely club money that we're talking about then Mort/Ashley cannot be blamed for not offering the manager anything?

 

Or should they take out more loans/get a bigger overdraft/accumulate more debt in order to give Sam Allardyce the money that he wants? Surely this would have been Freddy's only option? Him not being as "rich" as Mike Ashley, and all.

 

Personally I do expect Ashley to put his own money into the club, and I'm damn sure the majority of this message board expect exactly the same, even if it's just money to clear the debts and make us self-sufficient in the longterm.

 

As ohmelads has said to me, and as I've said elsewhere, none of us know the ramifications of the takeover or the current financial issues that the club is operating with. Not completely, at least. To me it seems like you're using this to lampoon the new owner where, if Shepherd were still here, you'd be praising him to the hilt for already have brought in 4 good-looking players to replace players who some I know for a fact you weren't overly keen on (Parker, Bramble) while still actively looking at bringing in MORE players (which we are currently doing).

 

I understand that you're attempting to play devil's advocate here, but I can't help but feel you've played your hand far too early and have defeated yourself with your latest post. I know you do want what's best for this club at heart, you always have, but this crusade you seem to be on regarding the new takeover isn't doing you any favours, especially when you've got barely any evidence to back it up aside from what Big Sam has been saying in the media.

 

Like Nut said, it makes more sense to discuss this on September 1st, but this "it's different this summer" nonsense is not going to fly, because if it IS different it's worse, not better, especially where club finances are concerned (not taking Ashley's own money into account, like you said yourself you won't do.)

[Guest 22bnw]

I hate half the fuckers i work with and we still end up with good results. Infact it is far more healthy for the club that Allardyce and Mort etc have conflicting opinions, results in a better productivity.

 

Exactly. In football you've got to work as a team in order to get personal glory, so it doesn't matter what you think of other players.

[Rich]

Janitor...

 

I'm concerned at a lack of spending. I know that we haven't spent much in defence. Of course I don't know how much we will spend, but I do know what Allardyce has been saying in recent weeks with regard to this very subject. Therefore, my concern is based on quotes (which I know) and a lack of spending thus far (which I know). So don't you think I have a fair basis for this concern? I've voiced these concerns regardless of the circumstances which have led to a lack of spending, of which none of us know.

 

I'll give you the penny-pinching remark, perhaps I can't make that until Sept 1st, but I stand by everything else I've said in this thread. If you think they're daft that's your opinion, I'm not going to hold it against you.

 

I appreciate this, OML, and I do share some of your concerns (although to an obvious lesser degree), but as I've mentioned, what if the mooted £6M-£7M player had happened? We've agreed that it's all speculation, but there is as much evidence to say we do have fairly decent cash to spend on the defence from the media than there is to dismiss it. Sam himself has said that we've had set-backs and he said last week that there had been "loads of bids" in for players, or something very similar. Which does point to a certain amount of money being in the pot, even if it is left over from TV revenue or previous club cash.

 

It's just with you, personally, I realise you can see things from both sides and you're not steadfast in one opinion/blighted by any agendas. Which is why it frustrates me more when I see you making the sort of comments you are, it's nothing personal. It's not that the concerns themselves are daft, it's just the way you weren't taking in any of the surrounding/contributing factors.

 

I do understand that it may be because you don't have the time/will to be making marathon posts whenever you contribute here, but it's my day off and I've fuck all else to do 'til after 5pm, so forgive me.

[KaKa]

So ... does anyone have any tangible evidence that Cacapa has signed for Al-Rayyan?

 

Or will he be in black and white by Friday?

 

 

[Rich]

So ... does anyone have any tangible evidence that Cacapa has signed for Al-Rayyan?

 

Or will he be in black and white by Friday?

 

 

 

Wiki says he has...

[SUPERTOON]

Anyone think this article by OLiver is just more rubbish.??

[Guest Guinness]

So ... does anyone have any tangible evidence that Cacapa has signed for Al-Rayyan?

 

Or will he be in black and white by Friday?

 

 

 

It's on Wiki so it must be true.

[Rich]

Anyone think this article by OLiver is just more rubbish.??

 

Blasphemy!!

[Baggio]

So ... does anyone have any tangible evidence that Cacapa has signed for Al-Rayyan?

 

Or will he be in black and white by Friday?

 

 

 

Wiki says he has...

 

Yesterday Wiki had him down as signed for Panithinikos.

[Guest icemanblue]

WARNING: Please be aware that comments in this thread must be over 2500 words.

[Rich]

So ... does anyone have any tangible evidence that Cacapa has signed for Al-Rayyan?

 

Or will he be in black and white by Friday?

 

 

 

Wiki says he has...

 

Yesterday Wiki had him down as signed for Panithinikos.

 

Tongue in cheek, man. Wiki is hardly as reliable as the Bible, is it?

 

It is mentioned on numerous other sites, mind (after a quick Google of "Cacapa Al Rayyan"), no word on Panathinaikos anywhere.

[STM]

Penny pinching in defence again. Will this club ever learn?

 

Looking at the defence we put out against Juventus I think it'd be an understatement to say we need some investment in that area. If you believe we're targetting freebies purely because they're the right people for the job then good for you, but I think it's because the money isn't there and we're getting whatever we can, a view backed up by practically all of Allardyce's comments over the last couple of weeks ("can't guarantee quality but ill get some numbers in", "targets are disappearing rapidly", "missed out on loads of players recently", "clubs like fulham are spending much more than us", "I need to convince the new owners to spend and quickly" etc etc etc).

 

Fair enough, but you've yet again completely ignored the relevant points that numerous people have made about the very recent takeover, the club's debt, the difficulty we might be having attracting players, etc.

 

It's a waste of time looking at things on such a simplistic level, man. Ashley de-listed the club 12 days ago and alright, we might not have money in the immediate short-term while this infamous "review" is undertaken and while things are sorted out from top-to-bottom (I notice the board are backing Allardyce's backroom rebuilding plans, which won't be exactly "cheap" and which people seem to completely be ignoring while they claim he's going to be forced out.)

 

Where is it written that you absolutely positively need to spend big, solid money to do well/build a solid foundation?

 

Surely you can appreciate it that it might take more than 12 days (or a month or two at the most since they started buying shares/taking full control) to come in and decided what route to take a multi-million pound business. As Gemmill said, it's unfortunate that it's happened in the summer and it's perhaps "unfortunate" that the likes of Man City don't seem to be suffering the same problems, but perhaps they're not doing things the right way and we are.

 

How many of us were calling for a massive upheaval at this football club just a few short months ago?

 

Well we're getting it and people still aren't f****** happy because we're not doing that AND spending millions at the same time.

 

Beggars belief and shows us up as supporters.

 

Call it simplistic if you want but it's equally simplistic to assume more money couldn't have been provided, or to assume that we haven't signed players simply because none want to come to Newcastle. Cheap dig tbh.

 

I haven't ignored the points made about the takeover or the club's debt, I've chosen to comment on actual quotes from the manager and facts such as the minimal spending on defence which goes back years at this club and the very limited options we have less than 2 weeks before the season's opener.

 

I didn't say we need to spend big.

 

Apologies if you think a bit of healthy scepticism shows you up as a supporter. I'll be as happy as the next man if I see us signing good defenders, but making excuses for the board without knowing any of the circumstances is pointless IMO.

 

Agree with this, not spending on defenders will just push us further behind.

 

But we are going to buy defenders. Mort, Ashley and Sam aren't stupid enough to let this window close without us at least getting the numbers in.

 

It's a myth that you need to spend big on defenders though. Look at Rozehnal (so far). If he keeps it up it's a hell of a buy for peanuts.

 

Agreed. I think there is alot of worrying going on a little to early. Obviously we need defenders but if there is anyone who i trust to get them in it is Allardyce, money or no money.

 

Nothing worse than blind faith, you sound as bad as the Villa fans with their "MON the saviour" bollocks.

 

Yes there is, consistent pessimism. Your getting all hot and bothered because we kick off in two weeks and we haven't got a left back in yet. How many times has he come out and said we need new defenders? Yet for some reason you think your complaints stand out above everyone elses and are making a difference.

 

He knows his football, he also knows about the problems that our club has. So why not let him get on with his job FFS. When we kick off then you can up your complaints.

 

There's a difference between getting anyone in to make up the numbers and getting someone in who's a big improvement on Babayaro, which is what we should be aiming for.

 

You came out with a quote yesterday like "In Sam I trust" like you're some kind of f****** sheep with no opinion of your own.

 

Sheep? Making insults towards people you don't know? Okay mate.

 

I trust Sam Allardyce. Nothing wrong with that is there? He's a good manager and he knows the problems we have. No opinion of my own? Whats that got to do with anything? I have many opinions just clearly you just don't agree with them.

 

In future when someone disagrees with you try debating it instead of an attempt to start mindless arguements. We both want this club to succeed don't we?

[S.S.R.]

 

Tongue in cheek, man. Wiki is hardly as reliable as the Bible, is it?

 

Yeah, 'cos that thing is fact-filled, isn't it?

[Guest SwissMagpie]

http://www.rayyanclub.com/view.asp?id=79433